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Affordable LDC Microphone With Multiple Voicings
Old 24th June 2016 | Show parent
  #3331
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Ragan's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jampa View Post
Hey Ragan thanks for doing these shootouts!

I think they both sound smooth, but different types of smooth. A is like sanded wood, B is like velvet.

In this shootout I preferred A.
Man, "dancing about architecture" and all that but damn, that's a great way of describing it.
Old 24th June 2016 | Show parent
  #3332
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ragan View Post
Hey fair enough. I don't do any of these comparisons to try and go rah rah rah for 3U. I mostly just do them for my own curiosity.

And often when I come back later and listen to AB files I've made, I feel the opposite of what my initial gut response was. So the jury's still out for me on the U87 question.

For what it's worth, on the thread on RGO, most everyone also preferred the U87 tracks.
Hey, thanks for doing this! Haven't listened yet but look forward to it.

Where did you rent the U87 from? I'd probably be happy with one, but the concern of getting a good one well maintained and the cost.......what is the going cost for a well maintained one?

And what is RGO?
Old 24th June 2016 | Show parent
  #3333
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Rockabilly69's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ragan View Post
There's more straining/pitching than usual (which is saying something...) because I've been laying engineered hardwood floors for a week and breathing in a crapload of dust.
Been there, you should here me when I come off of a few month run I need at least a few days before I hit the record button! Are the hardwood floors for your studio???
Old 24th June 2016 | Show parent
  #3334
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Ragan's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rockabilly69 View Post
Been there, you should here me when I come off of a few month run I need at least a few days before I hit the record button! Are the hardwood floors for your studio???
Heh. No, studio is stained concrete, which was also a dusty nightmare (well, the grinding it was...)

It's a remodel I'm doing. I flip houses.
Old 24th June 2016 | Show parent
  #3335
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Ragan's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by hhamilton View Post
Hey, thanks for doing this! Haven't listened yet but look forward to it.

Where did you rent the U87 from? I'd probably be happy with one, but the concern of getting a good one well maintained and the cost.......what is the going cost for a well maintained one?

And what is RGO?
RGO is Real Gear Online, another forum.

I rented it from Avast! here in Seattle. They have an amazing facility and great rental selection.

I wouldn't purchase a vintage mic without either knowing the seller, having time to inspect it or habit a return policy.
Old 24th June 2016 | Show parent
  #3336
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Rockabilly69's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ragan View Post
Heh. No, studio is stained concrete, which was also a dusty nightmare (well, the grinding it was...)

It's a remodel I'm doing. I flip houses.
Wow that concrete must be pretty live sounding! And keep a mask on, take care of the chords my man!
Old 24th June 2016
  #3337
Here for the gear
 

I could go with either one. However, having to pick one...it would be A. AND thank you for taking the time Ragan.
Old 24th June 2016 | Show parent
  #3338
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Ragan's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rockabilly69 View Post
Wow that concrete must be pretty live sounding! And keep a mask on, take care of the chords my man!
It definitely would be. I've got a couple large suede area rugs that dampen it, and the rest of the room is extremely absoprbed (it's a very small space).
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Old 24th June 2016
  #3339
Gear Maniac
 
metatron13's Avatar
 

I've tried the tlm67 - didn't think it was worth the price - I'd say it was b. Haven't tried any of the gz mics - yet - but own a few warblers - I know the gz mics have the improved transformer so I am betting the improved frequency spectrum would be this mic and Choice A from the shootout.
Old 24th June 2016 | Show parent
  #3340
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Listening briefly on headphones, I'd be somewhat surprised if A wasn't the tlm67. I also (still) don't really get this idea that mics (in general) are similar or in the same vein when they are different, not only in how they're made, but in the way they sound.

I like Ragan's style btw, like Steve Miller. Very cool. And in that regard, the mic doesn't make much difference.
Old 24th June 2016
  #3341
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ARIEL's Avatar
The A/B vocal test - both sound excellent, There are slight variations on how each responds to your top notes Ragan. B having a touch more super top end. I think with A I may take a hair off the mid range and B just a tiny hair on that top end on the hi notes. I would prob just multiband compress. I like them both equally for different aspects, but were talking minimal difference. I can hear a better variation when mics are tested on drums as it is more constant plus you have transients as vocal range is super dynamic when it comes to pitch. My guess is A is Nuemann ? This shows that neither of them are better for vocals and just have slight variations.
Old 24th June 2016 | Show parent
  #3342
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Ragan's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by hhamilton View Post
Listening briefly on headphones, I'd be somewhat surprised if A wasn't the tlm67. I also (still) don't really get this idea that mics (in general) are similar or in the same vein when they are different, not only in how they're made, but in the way they sound.

I like Ragan's style btw, like Steve Miller. Very cool. And in that regard, the mic doesn't make much difference.
For what it's worth, I for one don't expect any of these mics to sound the same. I'm just interested in how they stack up against each other. In fact it's precisely the differences that I'm interested in.

Helps me know where to spend my limited fear money.
Old 24th June 2016 | Show parent
  #3343
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Rocket88's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ragan View Post
So for ****s and giggles, I'm posting these blind. No "gotcha" motives. I'd like to hear what you guys think on this one, as far as which you think is the best match for my voice. I've got my leanings already but I don't really trust them. See which you like better.

This is the GZ67Fet vs the Neumann TLM67



Thanks first of all for going to the trouble once again, Ragan.

I will feel embarrassed if I'm wrong about this because A sounds to me just like the GZ67FET in your previous comparison, AND B matches perfectly what I had in my head that a TLM67 should sound like after reading various slutz descriptions of it.

IMHO and FWIW the U87 and mics more in that vein (MkID) are a better fit for your vocal style. You sound good through the 67, but it doesn't feed your aggression in quite the same synergistic manner.

This is really underscoring for me how much the GZ67FET is not at all trying to sound like a U87 and why it's not called a GZ87FET. (Speaking of which, Guosheng should really make one of those. He would probably sell a crap-ton.)

I'm thinking the GZ67FET might be a good fit for on vocals for Guitarboy94, or Paul Simon, to name a couple of examples.

What's your chain here, by the way?
Old 24th June 2016 | Show parent
  #3344
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Ragan's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocket88 View Post
Thanks first of all for going to the trouble once again, Ragan.

I will feel embarrassed if I'm wrong about this because A sounds to me just like the GZ67FET in your previous comparison, AND B matches perfectly what I had in my head that a TLM67 should sound like after reading various slutz descriptions of it.

IMHO and FWIW the U87 and mics more in that vein (MkID) are a better fit for your vocal style. You sound good through the 67, but it doesn't feed your aggression in quite the same synergistic manner.

This is really underscoring for me how much the GZ67FET is not at all trying to sound like a U87 and why it's not called a GZ87FET. (Speaking of which, Guosheng should really make one of those. He would probably sell a crap-ton.)

I'm thinking the GZ67FET might be a good fit for on vocals for Guitarboy94, or Paul Simon, to name a couple of examples.

What's your chain here, by the way?
Well, I already posted the answers on RGO just now (someone asked) and I'm going out of town for a few days and won't be able to do any more clips so I'll just let you guys know that A was the TLM67 and B was the GZ67 here.

Vocal chain was mic ---> Heritage DMA73 ---> Apollo 8. Each mic also had a hardware insert of a GAP Comp-3a ---> Warm WA76, each just knocking off a couple dB's. That's my usual tracking chain so I was sending these mics through it for my own evaluation purposes.

Acoustic guitars were all mic---> DMA73 ----> Burl B2 ADC. No compression.

As to the mics, I don't love the U87 at this juncture. Seems to accentuate my already hi-mid resonance. Who knows though, maybe it's just the discomfort of me being the singer in question and hearing my voice pressed forward like that. I tend to like something squishy-er and more sort of 'forgiving', for lack of a better term.

I don't know, jury's still out for me. I'll do some more testing with the TLM67 when I get back into town.

Thanks everyone for the input, much appreciated.
Old 24th June 2016 | Show parent
  #3345
Gear Guru
 
Karloff70's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ragan View Post
Well, I already posted the answers on RGO just now (someone asked) and I'm going out of town for a few days and won't be able to do any more clips so I'll just let you guys know that A was the TLM67 and B was the GZ67 here.

Vocal chain was mic ---> Heritage DMA73 ---> Apollo 8. Each mic also had a hardware insert of a GAP Comp-3a ---> Warm WA76, each just knocking off a couple dB's. That's my usual tracking chain so I was sending these mics through it for my own evaluation purposes.

Acoustic guitars were all mic---> DMA73 ----> Burl B2 ADC. No compression.

As to the mics, I don't love the U87 at this juncture. Seems to accentuate my already hi-mid resonance. Who knows though, maybe it's just the discomfort of me being the singer in question and hearing my voice pressed forward like that. I tend to like something squishy-er and more sort of 'forgiving', for lack of a better term.

I don't know, jury's still out for me. I'll do some more testing with the TLM67 when I get back into town.

Thanks everyone for the input, much appreciated.
Sadly, that is a very unsurprising result. I would have loved it if it was the other way round. Even the TLM67 has that Neumann 'like a rekkerd' feel thing happening quite well in its own way. Although more slimline than the old 87 body thing of course. Still soars in a cool way though.

To me on your voice it seems distinctly more exciting. And I only say seems because they are different takes, right?
Old 24th June 2016
  #3346
323496
Guest
Hey Ragan! I also preferred mic A, and I agree with the comments that it sounds more like a finished record, especially in the highest part of the voice. BTW your vocals are excellent, no need to hide! I also quite liked the U87 tracks. I think the 3U mics are fantastic value, and a very good sound, but they're not Neumann. I guess I'm going to need to start saving up myself...
Old 24th June 2016 | Show parent
  #3347
Lives for gear
 

I too suspected A to be the TLM67. But to me it's not a winner. It's relatively bland, I'd say (though usable for sure). Yes, it does have some more glue. But it also sounds more fuzzy to me, which could be the electronics that try to emulate the U67 (good luck with that). And especially on the peaks I hear or experience more distortion. The lack of a transformer might play a part, too. The vocal is powerful and aggressive (in a good way), which serves the comparison nicely in this regard.
The GZ67 to me sounds more hifi and dynamic, but yes, it's a little mored edgy in the mids and it has less glue. The lack of negative feedback etc. (or an emulation thereof) could have to do with this.
Again, I'd like to hear both on a faster (transient rich), more open and dynamic source and/or a more delicate one. E.g. acoustic fingerstyle.

Can we have the good of A and B combined?
Yes, it's called the U67.
It has the coherence as well as the quality.
And then some.
But that ain't a fair comparison.
Although both contenders here do use the magic number.
Old 24th June 2016 | Show parent
  #3348
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guitarboy94's Avatar
 

I preferred track B, the 3U Audio mic.
Old 24th June 2016 | Show parent
  #3349
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Ragan's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Karloff70 View Post
Sadly, that is a very unsurprising result. I would have loved it if it was the other way round. Even the TLM67 has that Neumann 'like a rekkerd' feel thing happening quite well in its own way. Although more slimline than the old 87 body thing of course. Still soars in a cool way though.

To me on your voice it seems distinctly more exciting. And I only say seems because they are different takes, right?
Same take, just sung into the two mics, capsule to capsule.
Old 24th June 2016 | Show parent
  #3350
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Ragan's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by legato View Post
I too suspected A to be the TLM67. But to me it's not a winner. It's relatively bland, I'd say (though usable for sure). Yes, it does have some more glue. But it also sounds more fuzzy to me, which could be the electronics that try to emulate the U67 (good luck with that). And especially on the peaks I hear or experience more distortion. The lack of a transformer might play a part, too. The vocal is powerful and aggressive (in a good way), which serves the comparison nicely in this regard.
The GZ67 to me sounds more hifi and dynamic, but yes, it's a little mored edgy in the mids and it has less glue. The lack of negative feedback etc. (or an emulation thereof) could have to do with this.
Again, I'd like to hear both on a faster (transient rich), more open and dynamic source and/or a more delicate one. E.g. acoustic fingerstyle.

Can we have the good of A and B combined?
Yes, it's called the U67.
It has the coherence as well as the quality.
And then some.
But that ain't a fair comparison.
Although both contenders here do use the magic number.
I can definitely get some fingerstyle acoustic up when I get back into town next week.
Old 24th June 2016 | Show parent
  #3351
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Super!
Old 24th June 2016
  #3352
Gear Maniac
 
Rocket88's Avatar
Went out on a limb and, SNAP!

Good thing I'm more interested in learning something than looking good.

This is really starting to put the GZ67FET into perspective for me. I thought it sounded smooth next to the U87i and the MkIID but edgy in comparison with the TLM67. It seems to have a subtle sneaky edginess that might sound really great on a lot of music that's not mellow but not completely aggressive either–maybe on a baritone where you want some attitude on top without losing the girth. I'm going to do some more listening soon but right now I'm in the camp with Guitarboy. Once you hit the Warbler level, it's just personal preference. With good talent and a competent engineer you can absolutely make recordings that sound like a rekkerd without any mics that cost over $400 brand new.
Old 24th June 2016 | Show parent
  #3353
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Rocket88's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by guitarboy94 View Post
I preferred track B, the 3U Audio mic.
Hey I thought your recordings sounded good when you were first trying out the Black CM-1. How do you feel about that mic now that you've had it in your collection awhile?
Old 24th June 2016 | Show parent
  #3354
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guitarboy94's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocket88 View Post
Hey I thought your recordings sounded good when you were first trying out the Black CM-1. How do you feel about that mic now that you've had it in your collection awhile?
It's a great utility mic. Super clear, fast transient response. Maybe like an AKG 414? I've got no complaints. I prefer it on acoustic and I prefer my Warbler I on vocals because it's a bit "rounder" sounding and more forgiving. I've tried out three of the Warblers (I, II and V) and ended up sticking with the Warbler I because it seemed like the best all rounder.
Old 24th June 2016 | Show parent
  #3355
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Ragan's Avatar
 

Quick thought I had just now. If people are using my vocal clips as reference, be aware that my voice bites hard in the upper mids. And it's loud. Ask any of the FOH engineers who've mixed me

Just keep that in mind. I've recorded other singers and done session work on a lot of records and been around tracking environments a good bit. Most people's voices will be easier on an LDC than mine.

It's led me to buy and sell a lot of mics. 414b-ULS, AEA R84, SM7, 441, RE20, AT4047, Stellar CM-5, Soundelux U95s (with Shannon Rhoades capsule tuned for me), several more. Anyway, it's not an easy voice to track, just keep that in mind with these clips.

Good chance your or your clients' vox won't be as much of a problem child.
Old 24th June 2016 | Show parent
  #3356
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ragan View Post
Quick thought I had just now. If people are using my vocal clips as reference, be aware that my voice bites hard in the upper mids. And it's loud. Ask any of the FOH engineers who've mixed me

Just keep that in mind. I've recorded other singers and done session work on a lot of records and been around tracking environments a good bit. Most people's voices will be easier on an LDC than mine.

It's led me to buy and sell a lot of mics. 414b-ULS, AEA R84, SM7, 441, RE20, AT4047, Stellar CM-5, Soundelux U95s (with Shannon Rhoades capsule tuned for me), several more. Anyway, it's not an easy voice to track, just keep that in mind with these clips.

Good chance your or your clients' vox won't be as much of a problem child.
Great clips again!

Yeah I thought the Neumann was piercing to the ears when you were hitting it hard. 3u took those better in my opinion
Old 25th June 2016
  #3357
SO, I currently own a warbler 6 but I have been thinking of getting a teal cm 1 mic to add and compliment to my mic locker. Can someone thats a bit more knowledgeable than me tell me exactly how the Teal cm1 mic will differ compared to my warbler 6?
Old 25th June 2016 | Show parent
  #3358
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Rocket88's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by doom3crazy View Post
SO, I currently own a warbler 6 but I have been thinking of getting a teal cm 1 mic to add and compliment to my mic locker. Can someone thats a bit more knowledgeable than me tell me exactly how the Teal cm1 mic will differ compared to my warbler 6?
Forgive me if this is stuff you already know. The two biggest differences are the capsule and the tranny.

The Warbler VI is center-terminated while the Teal CM-1 is has an edge-terminated capsule, so the way I understand it, the Warbler is going to be more mid-forward while the Teal might sound a little "scooped" in the mids, especially around 2Khz. You can really hear the difference if you go back to the dedicated thread for 3u Audio Microphones sound samples.

Also the Teal CM-1 is transformerless, so it should have faster transients, more detail, but less "magic." A lot of people tend to prefer using a pre with trannys when using a transformerless mic. Your Mk VI has a custom built 9.5: 1 transformer.

Both have 10 db pad and low freq roll-off switches.

If you have the D version, you have multiple polar patterns while the Teal is cardioid only. If not, both will be fixed cardioid.

They should sound very different from one another.
Old 26th June 2016 | Show parent
  #3359
SEED78
Guest
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ragan View Post
It's led me to buy and sell a lot of mics. AEA R84, Stellar CM-5,
In general, how to you rate your 3u mics compared to the AEA and Stellar?

I've got a GZ47fetV - often thought about getting a AEA.

I've also been thinking about iSK 2B, Stellar CM6 and few others, but I'm tempted to just get a range of Warblers/GZ instead so I've always got something to suit a range of sources.
Old 26th June 2016 | Show parent
  #3360
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uncle duncan's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by SEED78 View Post
In general, how to you rate your 3u mics compared to the AEA and Stellar?

I've got a GZ47fetV - often thought about getting a AEA.

I've also been thinking about iSK 2B, Stellar CM6 and few others, but I'm tempted to just get a range of Warblers/GZ instead so I've always got something to suit a range of sources.
The Stellar CM6 is out of production, but rumor has it, it will be reintroduced soon in a new improved version. It's a great mic. I was curious about the ISK 2b Beauty, but the YouTube sample vid on the ISK Pro Audio site leads me to believe in doesn't hold up to singers who really belt. I wonder if that's true?

I'm selling a GZ12fet, if you're interested, mainly because it didn't suit my voice and I'm trying to divest gear in preparation for retirement. If I wasn't divesting gear, I'd get a few more Warblers, the IV and the VI for sure. I have the Warbler MKI, and with the high cut switch at maximum, it sounds somewhat like a ribbon, but without the hassle of using a high gain preamp to get there.
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