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Affordable LDC Microphone With Multiple Voicings
Old 11th May 2016
  #3061
MYN
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Quote:
Originally Posted by uncle duncan View Post
My GZ12 is more of a niche mic than a go-to mic, although I do put it up for BG vocals pretty consistently. On lead vox, I've found it works great on a "congested", deep - maybe even muddy - male vocal. Imagine how bad a U87 could sound in that context. The GZ12 is the exact opposite. On one project, I was using a Stellar CM6 for lead vox on such a singer (with a tube swap to calm the high end.) When I put up the GZ12 for BG vocals, I realized it sounded better on that singer than the CM6. It was as if the vocal suddenly stepped out of the shadows and into the light. Live and learn.

The ADK Vienna IIau is also considered a C12-ish mic, and that version cost close to $1,000. It's different than the GZ12. I'd say the GZ12 is lighter, the Vienna heavier. One of my repeating clients is a 4-piece vocal group with two female signers. (They track everything live - no overdubs.) I was using the Vienna on one of the gals, and a TLM102 on the other. The TLM102 is now out of the rotation. The Vienna goes with the thin-voiced singer to add a bit of heft, the GZ12 goes on the midrangy singer to thin out the honk in her voice.
Thanks for the 411, Uncle Duncan! I use a GZ251 as my main axe every day in the booth and it works great on my mid-rangey voice. Guosheng's done some nice stuff with his edge-terminated capsule so that mid scoop really smoooths out my tone and the low end goes absolutely subterranean. I think the darkness of it works well with my voice but I'm curious to hear something lighter like a GZ12. I'm afraid my mic jones is going to have me picking up a GZ12 at some point, maybe when he's able to offer a tube version. Fingers X'd.

I may be mistaken, but didn't KV once say that the ADK capsules were actually designed and built by Guosheng?
Old 11th May 2016
  #3062
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One step away from pulling the trigger on the warbler MKID. He was very helpful by email.

I normally use my AT4050 for vocals, but this mic sounds like it is very flexible.

Why do I always have to see what all the fuss is about.

Oh well, for 500 bucks Canadian, I could do worse things with the money.
Old 11th May 2016
  #3063
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Quote:
I may be mistaken, but didn't KV once say that the ADK capsules were actually designed and built by Guosheng?
As for the custom series:

-A Belgian guy designs them.

-An Australian guy makes the capsules.

-An American guy sells the things.
Old 11th May 2016
  #3064
Quote:
Originally Posted by SEED78 View Post
My GZ47fetV is on order - thanks for your great demos vs the TM1, really helped confirm it as a choice for me (along with other great demos of it on there).

any update on the GZ12? is it brighter?

I'm tempted to get another GZfet like the 67 to go with the V (unless the 12 is better), either that or get a Walrber (the U87 inspired one, or the c3000g inspired one)

G has a tube 251/12 coming out later in year - could wait of that too!
Glad to help! The GZ12 is awesome. It's definitely doesn't have the usability that the GZ47fetV does... meaning, most everything works with the 47fetV. That is NOT the case with the GZ12. HOWEVER, when it works, it is really, really good. Great in fact. Just like a C12, when matched with the right voice, it is heaven. It's just much more picky with who it chooses to work with... I'm hoping to have some samples for you guys, just been super swamped with work lately. I will try and do some shooting out soon!
Old 11th May 2016
  #3065
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Dpro's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by legato View Post
As for the custom series:



-An Australian guy makes the capsules.

.
Scratches head and wonders.
Old 11th May 2016
  #3066
MYN
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Quote:
Originally Posted by legato View Post
As for the custom series:

-An Australian guy makes the capsules.
Ahhh, I see what you did there.
Old 11th May 2016
  #3067
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Dennis was very fond of the ADK GK12 capsule.

He even preferred over the Tim Campbell CT12 which is the current king of CK12 capsules.

Physically, the Campbell is closer to the original BTW.
Old 11th May 2016
  #3068
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uncle duncan's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by downrazor11 View Post
Is it pretty close to the Warbler III? The GZ that is..
Don't know, but I did recommend the Warbler III to the client who sounded good on the GZ 12. If he ended up getting one, I'll definitely bring him over and record a shoot out.
Old 12th May 2016
  #3069
Has anyone in this thread used a Seventh Circle Audio N72 Pre-amp with their 3U mic? I am really curious how it would match with my warbler 6. I have read that it is an amazing pre amp for vocals. It comes assembled with a chassis for 600$ which is not bad considering some of the comparisons to the actual neve 1073. I am looking to add some weight/color/thicken things up a bit and it seems like this thing would be the beast to do that.
Old 12th May 2016
  #3070
Gear Nut
Man you guys don't make things easy!! I have a matched pair of the GZ47fetV and now on the fence about which other pair to get. GZ251fet, GZ67fet or GZ12fet? Just by reading up on the last couple of pages, it seems like a toss up between the GZ12fet and the GZ251fet.
Old 12th May 2016
  #3071
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drumslinger View Post
Man you guys don't make things easy!! I have a matched pair of the GZ47fetV and now on the fence about which other pair to get. GZ251fet, GZ67fet or GZ12fet? Just by reading up on the last couple of pages, it seems like a toss up between the GZ12fet and the GZ251fet.
Hey, it's you who must have pairs!

Nah, wise decision really.
But it may take a little longer saving for other flavours.

A matched pair begs to be used for stereo. In that case I'd opt for the 12.
For a single vocal mic I'd pick the 251.
Old 12th May 2016
  #3072
SEED78
Guest
maybe a pair of Warblers would be more of a contrast? like a pair of Warbler V (very dark) or a pair of VI (very light)?

If I get another mic to compliment the GZ47fetV (have one on order) I honestly can't decide between the MK1/V/VI or a GZ67. Obvious answer is all of them, but I'd rather get a nice vocal compressor with that money, so would prob only buy one... most likely the MK1 or VI.
Old 12th May 2016
  #3073
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SEED78 View Post
maybe a pair of Warblers would be more of a contrast? like a pair of Warbler V (very dark) or a pair of VI (very light)?

If I get another mic to compliment the GZ47fetV (have one on order) I honestly can't decide between the MK1/V/VI or a GZ67. Obvious answer is all of them, but I'd rather get a nice vocal compressor with that money, so would prob only buy one... most likely the MK1 or VI.
I'd get acquainted with the GZ47fetV first. (!)
Then try to find out what you might be missing, if anything. This will make choosing a possible next purchase easier.
Also, it might become clear if you want another GZ or a Warbler rather. Better anticipate that you'll be spoiled.



But if you want an answer before the pudding gets tasted, complementary to a mic with K47 style capsule (centre terminated; single backplate; strong midrange) would be one with a CK12 style (edge terminated; dual backplate; relatively subdued midrange).

Last edited by legato; 13th May 2016 at 11:03 AM..
Old 13th May 2016
  #3074
Gear Nut
Looks like a GZ12fet order coming up.
Old 13th May 2016
  #3075
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You can go to war with them two pairs!
Old 14th May 2016
  #3076
Lives for gear
Any listened to this shoot out yet?

Real World Vocal Shootout
Old 14th May 2016
  #3077
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MYN View Post
Hey just a quick FYI. Some of you already know this but Guosheng is moving to a new factory in two weeks time and he said he and everyone at 3u are super, duper slammed. So, if you're ordering a mic or just asking questions or just sending praise for his sonic masterpieces, be patient if you don't hear back right away.
Hopefully that will have no effect on the capsules and Q&A.
Old 14th May 2016
  #3078
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by miscend View Post
Any listened to this shoot out yet?

Real World Vocal Shootout
I checked it out. I preferred A and C...Awesome to throw up a shootout but they were all different takes done for each microphone as you can hear the headphone cable rubbing his shirt or hitting something throughout the takes all at different points,never the same (that's my guess as to what it is).

I don't think the singer was sitting in the same position for each one either. You can hear him backing off the 3u at points during the take where his voice drops out at times and more of the room pops in; I'm not even sure he was singing at the mic till 3 sec into the take which is obvious to the ear. If he was "on" the gz47fet like the other two I would have chosen C then A sonically. The GZ was the far more sensitive and natural of the three. Whether that's good or bad would be user choice. You definitely would have to have your mic skills on point because it magnifies all of that guys movement on the mic which was not flattering for his performance at all.
Old 14th May 2016
  #3079
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^

I too would say the singer was more on the Aston capsule than on the GZ.

And the slight distortion of the first helps to carry the higher pitched/louder parts.

Finally, the Aston seems to have a K67 style capsule rather than a K47.
Which can highlight or help the more "aggressive" voices.
Old 14th May 2016
  #3080
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Talking about the GZ47fet. It can be had in two flavours. But below the GZ series the K47 capsule seems to be underrepresented.

Before I go on, few microphone brands have so many LDC flavours to choose from, especially from the get go.
So I'm not complaining.
It's just that it seems so easy for this particular brand to complete the range.

In the trannyless series (CM1) there's a K67 and a CK12 style, but no K47.
And in the Warbler series we have three mics with CK12 style capsule (III, IV and V) and two with the K67/87 style (I and VI). The difference is in the tuning or voicing of the capsules. There's only Warbler with a K47, viz. the Warbler Mark II. According to earlier feedback from the maker, this is the Warbler "equivalent"of the GZ47fet.
It could be nice to have a Warbler counterpart of the GZ47fetV, too. In other words, one with the smoother capsule. That would then be the Warbler Mark VII.

Three different CM1s and seven different Warblers (not counting -D versus standard). Nice numbers, no?

Would it change the world?
Nope.
Would it be cool?
Yep.


Last edited by legato; 14th May 2016 at 06:38 PM..
Old 14th May 2016
  #3081
SEED78
Guest
I'd like Lomo 19a9/19a19 clones and a Sony C37a clone. Or a nice 269c clone
Old 14th May 2016
  #3082
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SEED78 View Post
I'd like Lomo 19a9/19a19 clones and a Sony C37a clone. Or a nice 269c clone
Clones he will not do, as far as I understand.
But regarding ball park mics, anything is possible.
Still, nothing will be as "simple" as putting some K47 types in mics he already does.

As for an M269c clone (U67, but lighter and airier) I think the GZ67 is as close as it will get.
Not a clone by any means, though.
Old 14th May 2016
  #3083
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by legato View Post
Clones he will not do, as far as I understand.
But regarding ball park mics, anything is possible.
Still, nothing will be as "simple" as putting some K47 types in mics he already does.

As for an M269c clone (U67, but lighter and airier) I think the GZ67 is as close as it will get.
Not a clone by any means, though.
I read in another forum that the GZ67 was KidVybes favorite of all the GZ mics, as it closely resembled the sound of his M269 which was his go-to vocal mic.
Old 14th May 2016
  #3084
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mtl777 View Post
I read in another forum that the GZ67 was KidVybes favorite of all the GZ mics, as it closely resembled the sound of his M269 which was his go-to vocal mic.
I believe that was the GZ67fet.
Old 14th May 2016
  #3085
SEED78
Guest
Quote:
Originally Posted by mtl777 View Post
I read in another forum that the GZ67 was KidVybes favorite of all the GZ mics, as it closely resembled the sound of his M269 which was his go-to vocal mic.
The maker of 3u mics told me the gz67 was closest in sound to the 269c too, and KV confirmed as much in on thread early on.
Old 14th May 2016
  #3086
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I have really been enjoying my GZ67Fet's lately. Really a lovely balance of muscle and air that works nicely on just a ton of sources. On the record I'm making now I'm using the GZ67's on OH, vocals, electric and acoustic guitar, bass cab and probably some more stuff I can't think of. Often in conjunction with other mics, the same as I'd do with any LDC. But the GZ67Fet has really been proving its merit.
Old 15th May 2016
  #3087
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I’ve checked and like I thought Dennis owned a GZ67fet. He had no (hands-on) experience with the GZ67tube. Neither do I BTW.

Also, he had two M269 clones; no Neumanns FWIW. One was a –c version, made by Dany Bouchard. This one had the correct circuit of the original (which is not as obvious as it may seem). I followed the development of it closely. The other was an RMS. I don’t know how close to the original the circuit in that one was/is. But no doubt it emulated the better known –c version as well, in any case regarding frequency curve.

Somewhere earlier in this thread Dennis explains that the M269 was the broadcast version of the U67 and that it had a somewhat different circuit for that reason. The first bit is fully true, the second bit isn’t the whole truth and/or it needs some elaborating. Since Dennis can’t do that anymore, I will give it a try.

German broadcast had its own system and standard and the tube mics they used typically had the AC701k tube in them. To apply to this standard, Neumann had to make a U67 version with an AC701k tube in it, which they did. This was the M269. Please note there’s no –c suffix there yet. Both the U67 and the M269 had a fixed bias circuit and they sounded very much alike. (!) Experts like Klaus Heyne have confirmed this. The AC701k tube has a hair more clarity and a little less character than the EF86, but this difference is very subtle, especially if the EF86 is a Telefunken.
The M269 soon became the M269b; still fixed bias. Then Neumann changed all their mics with the AC701k (including the M49, KM54 etc.) to self bias. They all got a –c suffix. There’s a noticeable difference in tone between the fixed and self bias (-c) versions, the latter being lighter in the low mids and airier on top. IMO this is the reason, or in any case the main reason, that the M269c sounds airier and lighter than the U67.
Do keep in mind that even the M269c has a de-emphasis c ircuit plus negative feedback and a tertiary winding on the transformer. The original K67 capsule is very bright (pre-emphasized) and really needs de-emphasizing to sound balanced. This was omitted in many Chinese mics that have a K67 style capsule, hence their extreme brightness. Harshness in those has another reason (too) BTW.
The negative feedback is a separate matter. Dave Thomas recently explained that this helps to match the EF86 tube to the relatively low ratio transformer. Although this comes in handy, IMO this wasn’t the real reason (after all, they could have made a different tranny). The whole negative feedback scheme including the tertiary winding was put there with a plan in mind. It effectively kills sibilance and other transient related artifacts that condenser mics can be prone to. Neumann tried to take engineers’ complaints about the U47 into account and this was one of them. Another was the noise floor (pre-de-emphasis took care of that one, not unlike Dolby) and there was built in pop filtering and proximity effect reduction.
However, he most important part of the intricate U67/M269 circuit IMO is the active and dynamic transient control as described above. This sets it apart from all other condenser microphones. The brighter and louder the transients you fire at it, the harder it fights back. This is the reason why some experience it as a dark microphone (especially the U67 and fixed bias M269). The frequency plots in the catalogue don’t show this at all, though. The subtle hills are a little above sea level rather than below it, if that makes sense. Yet another example why frequency plots can be deceiving. But be ready to get hit by some if you say this out loud.
This getting rid of transient overload artifacts so early on is also the reason why the U67/M269 takes a treble EQ (air band) lift like no other condenser mic. And no, filtering (after the mic) is not always better than amplifying. Dennis felt the same way about this BTW.

OK, now let’s look at the 3U Audio GZ67 (tube version). The name could suggest it has something to do with a U67 (or an M269 for that matter). But if you read the above, as well as the GZ specs, you’ll understand that this cannot be the case. Just like it’s not the case with the Peluso 67 and a host of other mics that have 67 in the name. Granted, most of those do have a K67 style capsule. But the majority of LDC mics do anyway. Next to none of them have the special negative feedback circuitry, though. And many don’t even have a proper de-emphasis circuit. Some do however. And others tame the capsule itself so it becomes less overly bright.
This is an interesting matter, particularly if we look at Guoshengs mics. We know he’s an experienced capsule maker who can tune or voice them. The GZ67(tube), apart from having no negative feedback, likely has no de-emphasis either. We know this because he offered a member to replace the K67 capsule for a K47. If the circuit had any de-emphasis at all, the K47 would become too dark. So he tames the K67 capsule is my conclusion. It doesn’t have to be flat and it isn’t. But the extreme lift is taken out. This leaves an airy microphone, just as described.

Another guy who does it like this is Dirk Brauner. He always uses a tamed version of the K67 capsule. He combines this with a relatively simple, flat circuit. All with high quality parts and clean sounding transformers. And like the GZ67, the Valvet actually uses a Lundahl tranny.
So although the GZ67 is not like a U67 at all IMO, on paper it reminds me very much of Brauner mics. Less expensive, though.
To be fair to Dirk, the metalwork of the Brauner bodies is really something special and nothing like anything I’ve seen coming from China (although I’m sure the Chinese could do it if they wanted).
Also, the noise floor is incredibly low for tube microphones.
Finally, Brauners are good investments that hold their value pretty well. This may become the case with 3U Audio tube mics too, but it’s too soon to say that.
Old 15th May 2016
  #3088
Gear Maniac
 
Dr. Jule's Avatar
 

Thank you legato for this great post! I've learned something new!
Old 15th May 2016
  #3089
SEED78
Guest
Can anyone with a better memory than me rem which shock mount is best for a GZ mic? Something I can grab off Amazon with vouchers, or eBay is cool too.

Samson sp01 or something else?
Old 16th May 2016
  #3090
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Quote:
Originally Posted by legato View Post
The frequency plots in the catalogue don’t show this at all, though. The subtle hills are a little above sea level rather than below it, if that makes sense. Yet another example why frequency plots can be deceiving. But be ready to get hit by some if you say this out loud.
I think it's the other way around. If you question how 2 mics can sound similar with very different frequency plots, you get hit over the head!

Quote:
OK, now let’s look at the 3U Audio GZ67 (tube version). The name could suggest it has something to do with a U67 (or an M269 for that matter). But if you read the above, as well as the GZ specs, you’ll understand that this cannot be the case. Just like it’s not the case with the Peluso 67 and a host of other mics that have 67 in the name.
Now this seems rather deceiving, too, but don't say it out loud!
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