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Affordable LDC Microphone With Multiple Voicings
Old 9th May 2016
  #3031
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Piedpiper's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by legato View Post
By one-sided I mean he always uses a K47 (last time I checked) for his LDC mods. Which BTW is (again, last time I checked) basically a Chinese usual suspect and AFAIK no one has yet found a difference between his and the OEM thing. But it's not a bad capsule per se. Extra quality control or testing? Maybe.
A CK12 style, for instance, goes well with a flat circuit, too.
And an electronically tamed K67 sounds different still (but may require deeper understanding of electronics) .

Also, he strongly believes in single layer baskets. That's fine, but it adds to the one-sided idea that I have. Yes, my opinion.
I'll grant him that the MXL990 has a sh!tty stock basket.

Samples never really impressed me, but I must confess I never had one in my studio. Which, I know, doesn't make my case any stronger.

It probably doesn't help that I didn't like his attitude on this forum at all. And I wasn't alone in this. (Understatement.) He got kicked out several times and then permanently. But after five years or so, maybe the door is open again?

It also probably doesn't help that I hang out among microphone builders and I have yet to meet one who takes Joly seriously. Again, not a strong argument from my own experience, but I'm just telling it as it is.

Of course it's not all bad news. And at one point he did seem to fill a hole in the market. But things change.

In this price range (and regardless, I guess) I'd much prefer mics that were built from scratch. Especially when the components are unusually good for the price. And with (capsule) flavours that really differ in essence.

BTW, I tend to agree with, let's say, 95% of your viewpoints. It's the details, if any, that we like to discuss. Which I enjoy.
This very topic might be one where we actually disagree and that would be fine, too.
In any case I hope this shines a better light on my earlier post.
That all makes sense.

I do have hands on experience with them as well as with him and his capsule R&D, during which I gave him candid feedback. I also was happy to take issue with him about some of his shootout methods.

Now that I understand what you meant by "one sided" I would agree, though I don't attach what seems to be a negative judgement to that. His taste and goals are clear and articulated up front. He likes what he likes and his goals overlap with mine in some contexts. I think his public persona is the main issue that people have, and if that weren't there I think he and his products would be more appreciated. He certainly has some adherents who know what they're doing.

I don't own his mics at this point but I have several friends with smaller budgets close at hand who do, at my recommendation. I've done comparisons in my studio with the Hulk 990 and the Fatboy with some high end contenders such as my Lucas CS4. They compared pretty well though the Lucas is a very different kettle of fish. If I was wanting more mics to fill that particular niche of very open, neutral, and inexpensive, those two would definitely be on my short list.

I'm guessing the 3U mics are different enough to be an apples to oranges thing, with a similar enough price for that to not be the deciding factor, for me at least. And he does offer premodded mics so it's not always about factoring the cost of the mic plus the mod plus shipping two ways. In any case, not wanting to get too off track but wanted to set the record straight for the readership. If I had some 3U mics to compare them directly to I would certainly be happy to report. Maybe sometime I will.

Old 9th May 2016
  #3032
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MYN View Post
From what KV told me, the capsule Joly uses is this one.

Aliexpress.com : Buy 2016 New Microphone 34mm Large Mylar Capsule Diaphragm Condenser Double sided M7 K47 K49 K87 Mount for Neumann DIY Replacement from Reliable mount microphone suppliers on WGT Int'l Co., Ltd.

I went back to the PM from Dennis and this is exactly what he said when I sent him the link to ask him if he knew about these capsules.

"That is a Ningbo TongXin K47-style capsule...it is the same capsule that Michael Joly used for many of his mods, and it's the same capsule sold by microphone-parts.com (dual-sided with brass retaining rings instead of the white composite/plastic rings)...it's a decent capsule for modding purposes, though a touch bright/edgy...I had one in my U47 clone before replacing it with a higher-quality capsule."

So, it appears unlike someone like Guosheng or Ben Sneezby (or the high end cap makers like Eric Heiserman), Mr. Joly's just using an off the shelf Chinese mass produced replacement. I've purchased a couple of these for mods and they're ok, (Dennis was right, they are bright) but I'm not using any of the mics I've done with these capsules for work.

But again, it speaks to the type of mic you get with 3U, when the capsules are hand built and tuned by an expert. Like many, when I started looking around the web to feed my mic information jones, I saw the Joly mics and his description of his "capsule" and thought it was something he made. Now, I know better.
Joly never said he makes them. He did say that he worked directly with the manufacturer to refine the design and quality control, and traveled to China to do so. He also uses two different capsule versions. Not sure how this relates to your info here.
Old 9th May 2016
  #3033
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bringmewater View Post
Your comment about a clone price ending up being the same assumes that there is not an inflated markup in the original. It is possible that a vintage mic might cost $400 to make and get marked up to $3000 because of the great snake oil salesmen.
This has already been spoken to, but I'll just add that even without deconstruction R&D, which has already been extensively done by any mic designer worth his salt, making and pricing the highest quality level of mics has nothing to do snake oil or inflating prices. With all due respect, again, your ignorance of the real story and the direction your assumptions take reveal more about yourself than the subject. This is why your comments have elicited some edge.
Old 9th May 2016
  #3034
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bringmewater's Avatar
 

I never said they WERE doing it, I just said it is possible that some of these $3000 mics might only have $400 in actual cost making them great targets to make clones of. Thanks for the psychoanalysis too, I've been meaning to get one done.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Piedpiper View Post
This has already been spoken to, but I'll just add that even without deconstruction R&D, which has already been extensively done by any mic designer worth his salt, making and pricing the highest quality level of mics has nothing to do snake oil or inflating prices. With all due respect, again, your ignorance of the real story and the direction your assumptions take reveal more about yourself than the subject. This is why your comments have elicited some edge.

Last edited by bringmewater; 9th May 2016 at 01:26 PM..
Old 9th May 2016
  #3035
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Karloff70's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by bringmewater View Post
I never said they WERE doing it, I just said it is possible that some of these $3000 mics might only have $400 in actual cost making them great targets to make clones of. Thanks for the psychoanalysis too, I've been meaning to get one done.
Logic isn't holding up once more, as even if the parts did cost 400, you learning how to make them doesn't. And building a capsule like Neumann and a transformer....you know, you might just spend 400.000 and a lot of years trying, and still not nail it. How do you quantify the value of a part like the capsule, that has come from a LOT of development?? Or is that a bit to real a question?
Old 9th May 2016
  #3036
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bringmewater's Avatar
 

troll on please. I have music to make.
Old 9th May 2016
  #3037
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Karloff70's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by bringmewater View Post
troll on please. I have music to make.
Hahaha, good one. Project much?
Old 9th May 2016
  #3038
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Being a troll with 17,815 posts would be quite an achievement.

Or a sudden change of character?
Old 9th May 2016
  #3039
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bringmewater's Avatar
 

Either way, we are not creating anything productive in this quibbling so carry on without me for now.
Old 10th May 2016
  #3040
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Piedpiper View Post
Again, you're missing the point. Of course great mics can be made with current materials, knowledge, techniques, etc.. The question becomes a totally different one when one is trying to reproduce the original exactly. This is where it gets tricky. There is absolutely nothing stopping great mics from being made that have little to do with copying the classics. They are just different. Reread my post #2969 for an attempt at a comprehensive explanation.
I'll paraphrase - there is no practial case for these mics to be reproduced to exacting specs. It makes no economic sense because we longer have the demand (nor the economies of scale) any longer to produce antiquated parts, when excellent mics can be made with superior modern technology. There are people who prefer to drive vintage cars according to exacting original specifications. However it makes no economic sense to commerically produce vintage cars. Those people who prefer to drive vintage, like those who only want vintage mics, are best served by looking into the 2nd hand vintage market.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Piedpiper View Post
Your sentence you quoted was preceded by this one that seemed to be an attempt at paraphrasing Klaus:



This could not be further from his opinion. It is a completely separate issue from what he is able to do with mics either through refurbishing, modification or from scratch.
Well you are clearly not understanding me. I was speaking purely in terms of perceived sound quality. I said he makes modern German mics sound as good as the best vintage German mics. I did not say he makes exact clones with exacting parts/specs. I'm purely interested in audio quality, i'm not a purist when it comes to exacting the specs of vintage tubes/transformers/caps etc. Not my thing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by legato View Post
Miscend wrote:






Just when I thought I'd seen it all.
No such thing as magic. It simply does not exist, whether you perceive it or not.
Old 10th May 2016
  #3041
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Quote:
Originally Posted by miscend View Post
I'll paraphrase - there is no practial case for these mics to be reproduced to exacting specs. It makes no economic sense because we longer have the demand (nor the economies of scale) any longer to produce antiquated parts, when excellent mics can be made with superior modern technology. There are people who prefer to drive vintage cars according to exacting original specifications. However it makes no economic sense to commerically produce vintage cars. Those people who prefer to drive vintage, like those who only want vintage mics, are best served by looking into the 2nd hand vintage market.


Well you are clearly not understanding me, I was speaking purely in terms of perceived sound quality. I said he makes modern German mics sound as good as the best vintage German mics. I did not say he makes exact clones with exacting parts/specs. I'm purely interested in audio quality, i'm not a purist when it comes to exacting the specs of vintage tubes/transformers/caps etc. Not my thing.
I think I understand you now, and I'm sympathetic to your interest in quality outside of the classics. Siting Klaus in this context is misleading because he would take issue with much of what you said, except the bit about being "best served by looking into the 2nd hand vintage market." He himself is a diehard fan of the original classics and insists on their superiority, and ironically, their "magic", which again, is simply a word to describe the particular qualities arrived at through careful technique. In any case, I think we can probably leave off this line of discussion at this point.

Back to 3U...
Old 10th May 2016
  #3042
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bringmewater View Post
Either way, we are not creating anything productive in this quibbling so carry on without me for now.
What is productive is nipping ill conceived notions in the bud for those here who may not know better than to be mislead. Being humbled can be a rough process but it's not all bad. We've all been through it.
Old 10th May 2016
  #3043
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bringmewater's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Piedpiper View Post
What is productive is nipping ill conceived notions in the bud for those here who may not know better than to be mislead. Being humbled can be a rough process but it's not all bad. We've all been through it.
I have not been humbled, I just find your ilk too annoying to have productive discussions with at this time.

“A true genius admits that he/she knows nothing.”
― Albert Einstein
Old 10th May 2016
  #3044
SEED78
Guest
in other news....

I'm finally in the position to buy a GZ47FetV, very excited!

If I had the cash I'd get a GZ12/67 straight away too
Old 10th May 2016
  #3045
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SEED78 View Post
in other news....

I'm finally in the position to buy a GZ47FetV, very excited!

If I had the cash I'd get a GZ12/67 straight away too
Good reason to be excited, too.
Bite the bullet today!

Hey, this might even get the thread back on track.
Wishful thinking maybe, but without hope all is lost.
Old 10th May 2016
  #3046
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bringmewater's Avatar
 

Congratulations, let us know what you think when you get it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by legato View Post
Good reason to be excited, too.
Bite the bullet today!

Hey, this might even get the thread back on track.
Wishful thinking maybe, but without hope all is lost.
Old 10th May 2016
  #3047
SEED78
Guest
Quote:
Originally Posted by legato View Post
Good reason to be excited, too.
Bite the bullet today!

Hey, this might even get the thread back on track.
Wishful thinking maybe, but without hope all is lost.
just waiting for a invoice from G - my main vocal mic at the moment is a C48, love it, but if I can sell it after buying the GZ I'd be happy to have the funds for putting towards a nice vari mu comp for vocals, or a LA2A clone.
Old 10th May 2016
  #3048
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tha]-[acksaw's Avatar
 

First, thank you all for the time and effort put into this thread. I read every single post on every single page, and checked out all the audio files. Took me several weeks to work through. What an interesting read. And... RIP Dennis. What an absolute loss!!

I ordered my 3U mic on Friday. And I just got confirmation that it's shipped. I opted for the MKII-D. I'll give that one a spin and see how it feels.

I've got my eye on the MKV-D next. I have the Kel HM2D, which I just love. Such a great example of a 'dark' condenser. Only problem is, it's developed some sort of noise and it's just collecting dust.

I've got a few decent mics I can shoot out against, and a bunch of fun preamps, if anyone is interested. I've got a U87ai, two TLM103's, two KM84's, an AKG C12, an SM7b, an AEA R84. On the preamp side, I've got the ADL600, an MPA Gold, the SSL VHD Pre and the JoeMeek TwinQ. All going through an Apogee Rosetta 800.

I'd be happy to pair any of those up with the MKII and send out some files. I can track stuff like male vocals, acoustic guitar, mandolin, electric guitar amps, bass amps, upright piano, harmonium, and percussion. I could spot track some drum shells too (kick, snare, toms).

Regardless, looking forward to joining this discussion and helping out in any way I can.

By chance, do we have any 3U owners in the California Bay Area? I'd also be happy to get together and act like the audio sluts we all are.

Cheers guys!
Old 10th May 2016
  #3049
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Welcome to this thread and do keep us posted!
Old 10th May 2016
  #3050
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Ragan's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by tha]-[acksaw View Post
First, thank you all for the time and effort put into this thread. I read every single post on every single page, and checked out all the audio files. Took me several weeks to work through. What an interesting read. And... RIP Dennis. What an absolute loss!!

I ordered my 3U mic on Friday. And I just got confirmation that it's shipped. I opted for the MKII-D. I'll give that one a spin and see how it feels.

I've got my eye on the MKV-D next. I have the Kel HM2D, which I just love. Such a great example of a 'dark' condenser. Only problem is, it's developed some sort of noise and it's just collecting dust.

I've got a few decent mics I can shoot out against, and a bunch of fun preamps, if anyone is interested. I've got a U87ai, two TLM103's, two KM84's, an AKG C12, an SM7b, an AEA R84. On the preamp side, I've got the ADL600, an MPA Gold, the SSL VHD Pre and the JoeMeek TwinQ. All going through an Apogee Rosetta 800.

I'd be happy to pair any of those up with the MKII and send out some files. I can track stuff like male vocals, acoustic guitar, mandolin, electric guitar amps, bass amps, upright piano, harmonium, and percussion. I could spot track some drum shells too (kick, snare, toms).

Regardless, looking forward to joining this discussion and helping out in any way I can.

By chance, do we have any 3U owners in the California Bay Area? I'd also be happy to get together and act like the audio sluts we all are.

Cheers guys!

Welcome to the party and a hearty hell yeah to audio clips.
Old 10th May 2016
  #3051
MYN
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Hey just a quick FYI. Some of you already know this but Guosheng is moving to a new factory in two weeks time and he said he and everyone at 3u are super, duper slammed. So, if you're ordering a mic or just asking questions or just sending praise for his sonic masterpieces, be patient if you don't hear back right away.
Old 10th May 2016
  #3052
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I didn't know, but this doesn't surprise me at all.

Now let's hope the succes won't inflate the prices.
Old 11th May 2016
  #3053
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bringmewater's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by MYN View Post
Hey just a quick FYI. Some of you already know this but Guosheng is moving to a new factory in two weeks time and he said he and everyone at 3u are super, duper slammed. So, if you're ordering a mic or just asking questions or just sending praise for his sonic masterpieces, be patient if you don't hear back right away.
Was it just me or did the previous pictures of the 'factory' look like an apartment ?
Old 11th May 2016
  #3054
SEED78
Guest
Quote:
Originally Posted by joelfarr View Post
When I emailed Guosheng, I was torn between buying the GZ47fet and the GZ47fet V. He mentioned the V sounded smoother so I went for it.... Glad I did! It is indeed meant to sound more like the M49 than a U47, but I still hear U47 type qualities in it. That may be why it's not called the GZ49... I was incredibly shocked when I first put it up against my Pearlman. I thought for sure it would sound inferior, but it definitely hangs with the more expensive stuff. I hope I feel the same way about the GZ12fet I have on the way!
My GZ47fetV is on order - thanks for your great demos vs the TM1, really helped confirm it as a choice for me (along with other great demos of it on there).

any update on the GZ12? is it brighter?

I'm tempted to get another GZfet like the 67 to go with the V (unless the 12 is better), either that or get a Walrber (the U87 inspired one, or the c3000g inspired one)

G has a tube 251/12 coming out later in year - could wait of that too!
Old 11th May 2016
  #3055
MYN
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SEED78 View Post

any update on the GZ12? is it brighter?
Yeah, JoelFarr I'm curious about your impressions of the GZ12 as well. Please enlighten the envious.
Old 11th May 2016
  #3056
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SEED78 View Post
My GZ47fetV is on order - thanks for your great demos vs the TM1, really helped confirm it as a choice for me (along with other great demos of it on there).

any update on the GZ12? is it brighter?

I'm tempted to get another GZfet like the 67 to go with the V (unless the 12 is better), either that or get a Walrber (the U87 inspired one, or the c3000g inspired one)

G has a tube 251/12 coming out later in year - could wait of that too!
The GZ12 should be the perfect complement to the GZ47fetV. Brighter, airier on top and with full, deep lows. Less mid punch.

The GZ67 should fit in between those.
BTW it's promoted as an airy mic which the original U67 is not. Also, it has no negative feedback whereas the U67 has loads of it. So apart from the K67 style capsule (and EF86 tube) it has little to do with a U67. FWIW. And I don't doubt it is a fine microphone.
Old 11th May 2016
  #3057
Quote:
Originally Posted by bringmewater View Post
Was it just me or did the previous pictures of the 'factory' look like an apartment ?
Dude, what is your issue? Seriously. What is your issue? Are you trying to be derogatory towards this thread on purpose? We get it, you are not impressed. You were probably one of those kids in high school that was anti-everything so as to be king of your own pile of nothing, because it was easier than playing the game. I thought you were going away..
Old 11th May 2016
  #3058
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MYN View Post
Yeah, JoelFarr I'm curious about your impressions of the GZ12 as well. Please enlighten the envious.
My GZ12 is more of a niche mic than a go-to mic, although I do put it up for BG vocals pretty consistently. On lead vox, I've found it works great on a "congested", deep - maybe even muddy - male vocal. Imagine how bad a U87 could sound in that context. The GZ12 is the exact opposite. On one project, I was using a Stellar CM6 for lead vox on such a singer (with a tube swap to calm the high end.) When I put up the GZ12 for BG vocals, I realized it sounded better on that singer than the CM6. It was as if the vocal suddenly stepped out of the shadows and into the light. Live and learn.

The ADK Vienna IIau is also considered a C12-ish mic, and that version cost close to $1,000. It's different than the GZ12. I'd say the GZ12 is lighter, the Vienna heavier. One of my repeating clients is a 4-piece vocal group with two female signers. (They track everything live - no overdubs.) I was using the Vienna on one of the gals, and a TLM102 on the other. The TLM102 is now out of the rotation. The Vienna goes with the thin-voiced singer to add a bit of heft, the GZ12 goes on the midrangy singer to thin out the honk in her voice.
Old 11th May 2016
  #3059
Gear Addict
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by downrazor11 View Post
Dude, what is your issue? Seriously. What is your issue? Are you trying to be derogatory towards this thread on purpose? We get it, you are not impressed. You were probably one of those kids in high school that was anti-everything so as to be king of your own pile of nothing, because it was easier than playing the game. I thought you were going away..
Besides your personal attacks did you have some different pictures of the factory. The pictures I saw looked like an apartment. Show me some different pictures or shut up
Old 11th May 2016
  #3060
Quote:
Originally Posted by uncle duncan View Post
My GZ12 is more of a niche mic than a go-to mic, although I do put it up for BG vocals pretty consistently. On lead vox, I've found it works great on a "congested", deep - maybe even muddy - male vocal. Imagine how bad a could sound in that context. The GZ12 is the exact opposite. On one project, I was using a Stellar CM6 for lead vox on such a singer (with a tube swap to calm the high end.) When I put up the GZ12 for BG vocals, I realized it sounded better on that singer than the CM6. It was as if the vocal suddenly stepped out of the shadows and into the light. Live and learn.

The ADK Vienna IIau is also considered a C12-ish mic, and that version cost close to $1,000. It's different than the GZ12. I'd say the GZ12 is lighter, the Vienna heavier. One of my repeating clients is a 4-piece vocal group with two female signers. (They track everything live - no overdubs.) I was using the Vienna on one of the gals, and a TLM102 on the other. The TLM102 is now out of the rotation. The Vienna goes with the thin-voiced singer to add a bit of heft, the GZ12 goes on the midrangy singer to thin out the honk in her voice.
Is it pretty close to the Warbler III? The GZ that is..
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