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Rane MS 1b
Old 15th September 2006 | Show parent
  #31
Gear Addict
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by moon_unit ➑️
Can't recall ever contradicting that (you still can't find any INA217s in any of the Rane products), but whatever. heh We're cool. Didn't realize some of the ms1s had the 163's. Interesting. That one is still, in my opinion, the best all-in-one Instrument amp of it's type on the market.
I too was surprised to find out the _b_
in MS1b stood for bracket. I had always
assumed, through bad internet rumor like
everyone else, that it stood for Burr-Brown.

The guy at Rane said some MS1's had the old
chip and some the new. You have to open them up.
It depends how old they are.

Regardless, most people won't be able to tell
the difference in most cases between the MS1
with either chip. They both perform pretty well.
As far as chips go....
Old 16th September 2006 | Show parent
  #32
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moon_unit's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Power Supply ➑️
Regardless, most people won't be able to tell
the difference in most cases between the MS1 with either chip. They both perform pretty well. As far as chips go....

I don't know that some people would necessarily agree with that. If you do a search on the rec.audio.pro board, you'll see a lot of guys pretty much slamming the crap out of the ssm-2017. And that includes guys like Monte McGuire, Scott Dorsey, and our own Jim Williams among many others. It wouldn't be a stretch to suggest that the newer burr-brown versions will out-perform the old Analog Devices ones by a long shot. Particularly when it comes to high-frequency distortion in the audible spectrum.
.
Old 16th September 2006 | Show parent
  #33
Gear Addict
 
🎧 15 years
you guys kill me with all this talk of chips. wheres the dip?
Old 16th September 2006 | Show parent
  #34
Gear Addict
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by moon_unit ➑️
I don't know that some people would necessarily agree with that. If you do a search on the rec.audio.pro board, you'll see a lot of guys pretty much slamming the crap out of the ssm-2017. And that includes guys like Monte McGuire, Scott Dorsey, and our own Jim Williams among many others. It wouldn't be a stretch to suggest that the newer burr-brown versions will out-perform the old Analog Devices ones by a long shot. Particularly when it comes to high-frequency distortion in the audible spectrum.
.
I brought that up with the guy from Rane and of course
he said it ain't that drastic, and I don't think he was sellin'
me 'cause I told him I own both, but you can take it with a grain of salt.
I hear a noticable difference only with certain mics on some sources.
Otherwise it's a pretty useful little unit with either chip.
I cetainly don't find myself reaching for one and thinking,
"Oh, is this the one with the Burr-Brown chip or the Analog
Devices". Besides, as previously stated you can easily
replace the chip with 217 from TI.

To me it's just more internet jibber-jabber and pissing matches.
Go press record!!!
Old 16th September 2006 | Show parent
  #35
Lives for gear
 
moon_unit's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
So you don't find it in the least bit interesting that it's only been about the last 6 years or so that the budget-priced mic pres have really started to catch people's attention? Which just so happened to be right about the time the burr-brown chips started being widely used?

Until the 163 came out ... budget mic pres in general were pretty heavily criticized; often refered to as being "hard" souding in the high end. A complaint which would be very consistant with an instrument amp that exhibits too much odd-order harmonics in the high end. Like a certain 2017 amp that was used in everything ?

It's funny how you usually don't hear those kinds of complaints about the newer models. And I don't think it's a coincidence that opinions started changing about budget mic pres ... right about the time the INA2017 was discontinued.

I remember when the Grace Design 101 first came out, and suddenly everyone was digging on it. Then the budget guys started getting in to the DMP3 ... and later the MS1B started turning heads. The common thread in all of these units is that burr-brown chip. It's really the only major thing that changed between the time that people thought all budget mic pres sucked ... and later, when people started getting in to them.

Stuff just started sounding better. And you can call it internet postulatig if you want. It's still sound quality, and it still matters.
.
Old 16th September 2006 | Show parent
  #36
Gear Addict
 
🎧 15 years
You know, that might be true and some people even say the INA217
is even better but one other thing I know about the internet is someone's always gotta' be right and I'd rather be recording.
Old 16th September 2006 | Show parent
  #37
Lives for gear
 
moon_unit's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Bottom line is I don't think the MS1 is worth it.

I wouldn't pay more than 10 bucks for one used.

.
Old 16th September 2006 | Show parent
  #38
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uncle duncan's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Pardon my confusion, but I've got 2 old Rane MS1's with the SSM2017 chip (I looked) and I'd like to put the new chip in. Do I get the INA217 or the INA163?
Thanks
Old 16th September 2006 | Show parent
  #39
Gear Guru
 
tINY's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 15 years


Maybe the budget mic amps started sounding better because people got used to high-bit-rate recordings. Before that, the high frequencies were masked one way or another (ADC's with high-order filters at around 19kHz, or... tape....).

Seriously, unless you are recording acoustic instruments with a lot of high end using newer condenser mics, you already have distortion problems.

Besides, the odd-order harmonics for 5kHz start at 15k... I can hear up to 17kHz on a good day, but just barely......



-tINY

Old 16th September 2006 | Show parent
  #40
Gear Addict
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by moon_unit ➑️
Can't recall ever contradicting that (you still can't find any INA217s in any of the Rane products), but whatever. heh We're cool. Didn't realize some of the ms1s had the 163's. Interesting. That one is still, in my opinion, the best all-in-one Instrument amp of it's type on the market.
But you just said it ain't worth ten bucks?
Make up your mind.

MS1's go for around $40. used on Ebay and new one's go for anywhere from $65.00 to 110.00. But again, you're right, I forgot.

Man, am I really done with this.... This is the reason I stopped going to pro rec!!!!!

Thanks for your words of sanity Tiny.
Old 16th September 2006 | Show parent
  #41
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moon_unit's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
You're really not listening very well, Power. I said the INA163 is, in my opinion, the best all-in-one instrument amp made right now. But the 2017 ain't worth a hill o' beans ... and if I have to play Russian roullete with the MS1 and crack it open to see what's inside to know whether or not I got a good one or not ... then I wouldn't pay $10 for it. I'd rather just get the 1B and know what I'm getting.

Hey Power Supply, normally I wouldn't carry things on this far ... but I did notice that someone from Pennsylvania was selling a bunch of MS1 mic pres on Ebay.

Right now, in fact.

And I noticed you were from PA and all ... and I just wanted to make sure we were all keeping things real in our discussions here. heh No need to get in a tizzy.

.
Old 16th September 2006 | Show parent
  #42
Gear Addict
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by moon_unit ➑️
Hey Power Supply, normally I wouldn't carry things on this far ... but I did notice that someone from Pennsylvania was selling a bunch of MS1 mic pres on Ebay.

Right now, in fact.

And I noticed you were from PA and all ... and I just wanted to make sure we were all keeping things real in our discussions here. heh No need to get in a tizzy.

.
No need to carry this on and question my
credibility. No, I am not selling anything on
ebay right now and in fact I no longer live in PA.
So there.

And further, it still doesn't clear up you contradicting
yourself. Me think thou dost protest too much.
What are you selling?
Old 16th September 2006 | Show parent
  #43
Lives for gear
 
moon_unit's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by uncle duncan ➑️
Pardon my confusion, but I've got 2 old Rane MS1's with the SSM2017 chip (I looked) and I'd like to put the new chip in. Do I get the INA217 or the INA163?
Thanks
You'd want the 217.

You could also use the 2019 from Analog Devices, or the new THAT 1510.
.
Old 16th September 2006 | Show parent
  #44
Gear Addict
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by moon_unit ➑️
Alright, then. In what way(s) am I contradicting myself? Spell it out for me.

.
Nah, I guess you cleared that one up for us.
You do like the Rane MS1 with the 163 chip but
you wouldn't pay $10. for a MS1 with the 2017
but you didn't know before that some MS1's in fact
had the 163 and you didn't know that the MS1b
stood for bracket, not Burr-Brown.

See we've learned a lot here and yet I get
no apology for calling my character into
question?

This is what makes forums like this start to suck.
Old 16th September 2006 | Show parent
  #45
Lives for gear
 
moon_unit's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Power Supply ➑️
Nah, I guess you cleared that one up for us.
You do like the Rane MS1 with the 163 chip but
you wouldn't pay $10. for a MS1 with the 2017
but you didn't know before that some MS1's in fact
had the 163 and you didn't know that the MS1b
stood for bracket, not Burr-Brown.

See we've learned a lot here and yet I get
no apology for calling my character into
question?
Alright, then. I apologize for the innacuracy of my BS detector. Sometimes it misfires -- but not very often. heh

And I knew what the B stood for, thanks.
.
Old 16th September 2006 | Show parent
  #46
Gear Addict
 
🎧 15 years
Half-hearted apology accepted but let me leave with this not minor point:

Those were some serious conclusions/accusations you jumped to.

So, that's why some working professional engineers, producers and musicians with something to share might be afraid to post in the future on forums like this if this behavior continues. Just saying. I ain't trying to play school marm here.

Go write a song and press record.
That's what I'm about to do.
Old 16th September 2006 | Show parent
  #47
Gear Addict
 
🎧 15 years
FYI, I talked to Rane and they said the preamp in the sterero DMS22(has eq) and the VP12(voice processor) was the same as the MS1. I compared it to my John Hardy and the the Hardy won handily but it stills sounds fine. It might a good candidate for an upgrade or 2nd backup pre.
Old 17th September 2006 | Show parent
  #48
Lives for gear
 
uncle duncan's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by moon_unit ➑️
You'd want the 217.

You could also use the 2019 from Analog Devices, or the new THAT 1510.
.
Thanks moon unit. I always wondered what that sound was coming out of my MS1's. Thought it was too much detail. I guess it was detail with a little distortion piled on top. I'm assuming the choice between the 217, 2019, or 1510 would be a toss up? I only use these pres for utility stuff, but it would be nice if they were pristine.
Old 18th October 2006 | Show parent
  #49
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
Hey, let me ask y'all this:

Do you replace just the AD2017 chip with the BB or the other two AD chips in there as well?
Old 18th October 2006 | Show parent
  #50
Gear Guru
 
tINY's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 15 years


If you are worried about it, why not just get some transistor arrays from THAT corp and make a discrete class A diff-amp for the first stage?




-tINY

Old 5th April 2007 | Show parent
  #51
Lives for gear
 
ulysses's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by moon_unit ➑️
So you don't find it in the least bit interesting that it's only been about the last 6 years or so that the budget-priced mic pres have really started to catch people's attention? Which just so happened to be right about the time the burr-brown chips started being widely used?

Until the 163 came out ... budget mic pres in general were pretty heavily criticized; often refered to as being "hard" souding in the high end. A complaint which would be very consistant with an instrument amp that exhibits too much odd-order harmonics in the high end. Like a certain 2017 amp that was used in everything ?

It's funny how you usually don't hear those kinds of complaints about the newer models. And I don't think it's a coincidence that opinions started changing about budget mic pres ... right about the time the INA2017 was discontinued.

I remember when the Grace Design 101 first came out, and suddenly everyone was digging on it. Then the budget guys started getting in to the DMP3 ... and later the MS1B started turning heads. The common thread in all of these units is that burr-brown chip. It's really the only major thing that changed between the time that people thought all budget mic pres sucked ... and later, when people started getting in to them.
For a bit of historical perspective, you might consider that the predecessor to the SSM2017 was the widely appreciated SSM2015, which was used in the still-recommended Symetrix SX202. That was probably the first inexpensive standalone mike preamp that people really liked. It probably went out of production when the SSM2015 did, and was replaced by the SX302, which contained the 2017 and was received much less warmly than its predecessor.

But you also have to consider that we're splitting hairs here. Even products using the 2017, with its reported HF distortion problem, were really changing the recording world with their astounding performance for very little money. This really set the stage for cheap digital crap to come along and turn the recording industry's livelihood into every college dropout's hobby. Compare the SX302 to what was available previously (before the SX202) and it really looks like a high performance box for practically nothing.

The 2017 is not going to prevent anybody from making beautiful recordings unless it's because they refuse to record anything until they've replaced it.

You make it sound like we lived through a dark ages while only the incompetent Analog Devices made dedicate preamp chips, and the rennaissance began when BB made an improved replacement. The 2017 had its critics, but the 2015 before it was probably the seed you perceive the 163 to be.

Yes, IC production technology has come a long way in recent years and now is the best time ever to be in the market for an inexpensice IC-based mike preamp.
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