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Which pre for direct out Line 6 recording
Old 8th May 2006
  #1
Here for the gear
 

Which pre for direct out Line 6 recording

Hi Guys,
I am working on a media project, where I will be recording my Line 6 Pod Pro, and Pod Pro XT. I will be recording direct only (no mics on cabs etc) so I want to try and achieve a good recorded result, enhancing the tone and perhaps coloring the guitar sounds.

I am a session guitarist, and play many styles, from jazz to metal. Lot of instrumental rock as well, so recording distorted tones will be a major factor. In other words, I don't neccassarily need the type of sound that would be suitable for nylon acoustics etc.....

My main question is not so concerned with what mic pre (although advice will certainly be appreciated) but a seperate area. As I will be recording distorted tones, I am debating making the dual mic a tube mic pre. It seems there are Tube and Toob pre's out there. My thinking is that a decent tube dual pre would be an advantage in direct recording to capture more of the 'dirt' a mic'd cabinet cranked would achieve (recreate even order harmonics etc)

So with all this in mind, I have considered everything from 2 VTB-1's, soon to be released GT SUPre and non tube units like the dual Avalon U5's, a Vintech 1272 etc..... In particular, the color of the U5 would be good to get thoughts on

Thanks guys, really will appreciate your thoughts!!
Old 8th May 2006
  #2
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nathanvacha's Avatar
 

um... it's a little pricier than what you had mentioned, but maybe skip the pre's and go for a distressor? That's really just speculation, I wouldn't know from having done it, but it sounds right to me.
Old 8th May 2006
  #3
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feyshay's Avatar
 

The Supre might make an interesting choice.
For cheaper, Groove Tubes Brick does a nice job.
However, I think whatever warmth that you believe will be imparted will be lost in the digital distortion of the POD.
Why not use a clean DI, rely on a good A/D converter (not relying on the POD for any of your conversion). Use your Pro digital connection I/O.
I think the analog sounding warmth in which you're interested would better happen after the POD (rather than before)--a nice compressor/limiter.
Note that if you weren't going to have a heavily modified tone (a cleaner preset on the POD), the pre might be a better option.
Old 8th May 2006
  #4
Here for the gear
 

I hope I am interpreting your suggestion correctly. The order I would be connecting would be guitar - pod pro - pre - firewire interface. I would run into the pod then taking the analog balanced outs into a pre to enhance the tone-and perhaps warm/color the sound using a mic pre.

I think you may have thought I was going into a pre first, and then the pod pro? Maybe I am wrong?

Thanks for the thoughts
Old 8th May 2006
  #5
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feyshay's Avatar
 

That is not what I meant. You would use a preamp as your DI, then run to your best converter (which would be you fireface), then send and return from the POD XT Pro (by digital connection). You would get warmth with the DI/preamp, but I would only see this as useful for clean type guitar (not heavily distorted).
Warmth by a compressor would require an extra D/A and A/D/ conversion (using your Fireface), sending to a compressor to warm things up at the cost of degrading the signal a bit because of the extra conversion you are doing.
There is no perfect cure.
Old 9th May 2006
  #6


Don't bother with a pre-amp. That pod-pro has line level outs.

If you need to further molest the signal before the converter, consider something like a tube EQ, or a compressor with input transformers.....




-tINY

Old 9th May 2006
  #7
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feyshay's Avatar
 

Do think about how important the DI is and A/D conversion. Don't rely on even the POD XT Pro to do that.
Old 9th May 2006
  #8
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by RockStarzUSA
Hi Guys,
I am working on a media project, where I will be recording my Line 6 Pod Pro, and Pod Pro XT. I will be recording direct only (no mics on cabs etc) so I want to try and achieve a good recorded result, enhancing the tone and perhaps coloring the guitar sounds.

I am a session guitarist, and play many styles, from jazz to metal. Lot of instrumental rock as well, so recording distorted tones will be a major factor. In other words, I don't neccassarily need the type of sound that would be suitable for nylon acoustics etc.....

My main question is not so concerned with what mic pre (although advice will certainly be appreciated) but a seperate area. As I will be recording distorted tones, I am debating making the dual mic a tube mic pre. It seems there are Tube and Toob pre's out there. My thinking is that a decent tube dual pre would be an advantage in direct recording to capture more of the 'dirt' a mic'd cabinet cranked would achieve (recreate even order harmonics etc)

So with all this in mind, I have considered everything from 2 VTB-1's, soon to be released GT SUPre and non tube units like the dual Avalon U5's, a Vintech 1272 etc..... In particular, the color of the U5 would be good to get thoughts on

Thanks guys, really will appreciate your thoughts!!
hey RockStarzUSA, i've tried sooo many different ways to do the same thing you're trying to do. it's sooo hard to get a really good distorted sound out of the POD when recording and it just never sound great...not horrible either. i love the POD for creating ideas, writing music, and getting down scratch tracks or rough demos. but to try and make it sound as good as a mic'd amp just doesn't seem possible. i've messed around with this for hours and hours, days and days...and when i A/B the POD tracks to the same tracks amped, they just don't come close. but the pod by itself can get some great scratch tracks. let me know if you find a good pre, comp/other device that will make the POD sound great when recording distorted guitars?
Old 9th May 2006
  #9
Gear Nut
 

You should definitely get a nice pre.
But you should also get a nice tube amp, a decent mic, and an isolation cabinet if you don't wanna make any noise.
Don't count on the POD making any noises close to what you sound like you REALLY want.
And don't get me wrong, I love pods and v-amps, but it sounds like you want a real guitar amp, and theres only one way to go.
Old 9th May 2006
  #10
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orange's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by tINY


Don't bother with a pre-amp. That pod-pro has line level outs.

If you need to further molest the signal before the converter, consider something like a tube EQ, or a compressor with input transformers.....




-tINY

agreed
Old 9th May 2006
  #11
Here for the gear
 

Damn.. I can see the money bird is gonna start flapping it's wings again

I hear you loud and clear Enzo and Ronster. Actually all posts have been valuable, and caused me to think beyond what I had considered already. I think the iso cab will be the solution.

Nothing can replace real hard overdriven tone. You are right, that is a fact. I think I will go for something like a Marshall EL84 20/20 rack poweramp. With just 20 watts per channel I can really drive it hard and then run into an axetrak or other isolation cabinet.

Without getting off topic, does anyone know a reliable iso cab they have used, or heard good reports about.

Feyshay, if I go down the above path, would you still recommend a di? I am curious as I had thought about the U5 offered by Avalon. Any thoughts? You obviously have greater understanding of critical signal path than I, so I would apprecaite your further comments on this. Cost benefit, spend $450 on a U5, will the end result be noticeable.

On converters, I have heard good reports about Apogee's Rosetta 200, however I will have to procrastinate a while budget wise before that eventuates.

Thanks guys!!
Old 9th May 2006
  #12
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nathanvacha's Avatar
 

There was a thread that I saw, I think yesterday, about iso boxes/cabs for guitar amps. The best looking one seemed to be a double layer enclosure with a speaker in it, two boxes separated by foam (or rockwool/fiberglass would probably be better) The speaker cab was birch and the outer box was mdf. The lids were offsed from eachother and each sealed fairly tightly, and then the outside had draw latches. Search for the thread though, I forget which forum it was in...
Old 9th May 2006
  #13
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by RockStarzUSA
Damn.. I can see the money bird is gonna start flapping it's wings again

I hear you loud and clear Enzo and Ronster. Actually all posts have been valuable, and caused me to think beyond what I had considered already. I think the iso cab will be the solution.

Nothing can replace real hard overdriven tone. You are right, that is a fact. I think I will go for something like a Marshall EL84 20/20 rack poweramp. With just 20 watts per channel I can really drive it hard and then run into an axetrak or other isolation cabinet.

Without getting off topic, does anyone know a reliable iso cab they have used, or heard good reports about.

Feyshay, if I go down the above path, would you still recommend a di? I am curious as I had thought about the U5 offered by Avalon. Any thoughts? You obviously have greater understanding of critical signal path than I, so I would apprecaite your further comments on this. Cost benefit, spend $450 on a U5, will the end result be noticeable.

On converters, I have heard good reports about Apogee's Rosetta 200, however I will have to procrastinate a while budget wise before that eventuates.

Thanks guys!!
hey,
i remember a guitar/studio friend of mine telling me that the Randall ISO CAB was really cool, and sweetwater.com sells it for 399. but i found an interesting article on how to build your own...if that would interest you? check it out:

http://www.amptone.com/g101.htm

http://www.randallamplifiers.com/pro...tion/index.asp

http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/IsolationCab/

good luck, and let us know how this works out for ya?
Old 12th May 2006
  #14
Lives for gear
 
feyshay's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by RockStarzUSA
Damn.. I can see the money bird is gonna start flapping it's wings again

I hear you loud and clear Enzo and Ronster. Actually all posts have been valuable, and caused me to think beyond what I had considered already. I think the iso cab will be the solution.

Nothing can replace real hard overdriven tone. You are right, that is a fact. I think I will go for something like a Marshall EL84 20/20 rack poweramp. With just 20 watts per channel I can really drive it hard and then run into an axetrak or other isolation cabinet.

Without getting off topic, does anyone know a reliable iso cab they have used, or heard good reports about.

Feyshay, if I go down the above path, would you still recommend a di? I am curious as I had thought about the U5 offered by Avalon. Any thoughts? You obviously have greater understanding of critical signal path than I, so I would apprecaite your further comments on this. Cost benefit, spend $450 on a U5, will the end result be noticeable.

On converters, I have heard good reports about Apogee's Rosetta 200, however I will have to procrastinate a while budget wise before that eventuates.

Thanks guys!!
I probably don't know more about signal path than you, BTW. I don't think there is anything special about that U5 that would warrant a purchase. If you are going to be micing an amp, you'll need to think about microphones, microphone placement, room, preamps, etc. That's what makes the POD so nice and easy. But you don't get something for free. It won't sound like a amp that is microphoned. It is always useful to have a small portable DI to take with you. The DI is useful for a number of reasons, including being able to record a dry signal (just the guitar, versus wet would be the microphoned amp) and then later reamp if you need to or to send your great session solo to the POD if you messed up the microphones. I'd look at Radial JDI (or J48) and their X-Amp. The JDI does not need power supply. The J48 feeds off the preamp phantom power. The X-Amp provides a clean return from your DAW to your amp or effect pedals.
Old 13th May 2006
  #15
Here for the gear
 

Hi again, Ok, I think I will just bite the bullet and do one of the following... or maybe both (for different applications)

1) Get an iso cab and run out from the poweramp straight to it. I use a Studio Projects T-3 Tube condenser, however I also have the MXL V67G, so I can play around with them and see what works. Perhaps the tube T-3 will positively affect the micing process?

2)I have read many good reports about the Atomic Reactor 112. It seems appealing, even without listening as it is a tube poweramp, running at just 18w with a single 12"... that would allow me to drive it reasonably hard without setting db records in my neighborhood.....

Any thoughts on this/these approaches... Thanks for your input!
Old 15th May 2006
  #16
Lives for gear
 
Bounce's Avatar
Distressors are the best thing that ever happened to my heavier guitar sounds!!!! Love it :-) Gotta try those for sure. You'll wonder how you lived without. It's not a subtle difference!

Love 'em.
Old 15th May 2006
  #17
Lives for gear
 
octatonic's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by RockStarzUSA
My main question is not so concerned with what mic pre (although advice will certainly be appreciated) but a seperate area. As I will be recording distorted tones, I am debating making the dual mic a tube mic pre. It seems there are Tube and Toob pre's out there. My thinking is that a decent tube dual pre would be an advantage in direct recording to capture more of the 'dirt' a mic'd cabinet cranked would achieve (recreate even order harmonics etc)

So with all this in mind, I have considered everything from 2 VTB-1's, soon to be released GT SUPre and non tube units like the dual Avalon U5's, a Vintech 1272 etc..... In particular, the color of the U5 would be good to get thoughts on

Thanks guys, really will appreciate your thoughts!!
I do it this way.
I go into the Di input of the Groove Tubes Vipre, straight to Protools or Logic
I use the Pod Pro XT via the AES/EBU as an insert and dial up my sounds.

Being able to push the signal with the Vipre and not having to use the Pod Pro's A/D stage has been a god send.

I don't know if the Supre is going to be as nice a sound- but I hope so.
My favourite amp model in the Pod Pro XT is the Powerball- really good modern rock tone.
I'm a session guy also- not having to drag multiple ams around has been great- althougbh I still do for some jobs.

James
Old 15th May 2006
  #18
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by RockStarzUSA
Hi again, Ok, I think I will just bite the bullet and do one of the following... or maybe both (for different applications)

1) Get an iso cab and run out from the poweramp straight to it. I use a Studio Projects T-3 Tube condenser, however I also have the MXL V67G, so I can play around with them and see what works. Perhaps the tube T-3 will positively affect the micing process?

2)I have read many good reports about the Atomic Reactor 112. It seems appealing, even without listening as it is a tube poweramp, running at just 18w with a single 12"... that would allow me to drive it reasonably hard without setting db records in my neighborhood.....

Any thoughts on this/these approaches... Thanks for your input!
i'd stay away from that Atomic Reactor 112!!! looks like a good concept, but have you read the reviews on Harmony Central yet? many people explain why it sounds bad and it totally makes sense to me! and when i looked up the price i noticed it cost 499...for some thing that doesn't improve the sound of the POD...hell no!

read this: http://www.harmony-central.com/Guita...2_Combo-1.html

i'd go with option 2, i've never heard of anyone complain about the iso cab. and it cost about the same...so i'd go that direction. out of your 2 choices i would strongly suggest you go this way. and now that i think about it, i might eventually do the same...i'd like to crank a tube amp head while i record at my apartment and this looks like the best option. oh, and by the way...i found another iso cab company that looks good as well. check this one out:

http://www.jlhproducts.com/axetrak/main.asp
http://www.jlhproducts.com/axetrak/reviews.asp
Old 15th May 2006
  #19
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bounce
Distressors are the best thing that ever happened to my heavier guitar sounds!!!! Love it :-) Gotta try those for sure. You'll wonder how you lived without. It's not a subtle difference!

Love 'em.
if only a distressor were under 500 bucks, then most of us would consider it a "low end" item and that would make sense to the Low End Forum! but since it's over 1,000 and most low end guys use less expensive mics like the Studio Project mics that are under 500 dollars...i don't think you'll find too many of us that can spend that kind of dough on a distressor at this point in our careers. but i have been in studios while they were used and i will say that they are awesome...but just not the right purchase for us low end guys!
Old 19th May 2006
  #20
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by RockStarzUSA
Damn.. I can see the money bird is gonna start flapping it's wings again

I hear you loud and clear Enzo and Ronster. Actually all posts have been valuable, and caused me to think beyond what I had considered already. I think the iso cab will be the solution.

Nothing can replace real hard overdriven tone. You are right, that is a fact. I think I will go for something like a Marshall EL84 20/20 rack poweramp. With just 20 watts per channel I can really drive it hard and then run into an axetrak or other isolation cabinet.

Without getting off topic, does anyone know a reliable iso cab they have used, or heard good reports about.

Feyshay, if I go down the above path, would you still recommend a di? I am curious as I had thought about the U5 offered by Avalon. Any thoughts? You obviously have greater understanding of critical signal path than I, so I would apprecaite your further comments on this. Cost benefit, spend $450 on a U5, will the end result be noticeable.

On converters, I have heard good reports about Apogee's Rosetta 200, however I will have to procrastinate a while budget wise before that eventuates.

Thanks guys!!
hey RockStarzUSA,
i wanted record guitar tracks with my Marshall JCM 800 today, but my apartment walls are sooo thin... i was racking my brain trying to figure out how to get away with cranking this amp in my small apartment. i thought about this thread while racking my brain, and kept saying to myself "man, an iso cab sure would be nice right about now"...but i don't have one and i don't need one because i can always take my amp to the studio i work at and crank it there.

then i noticed my LDC mic that i had recently used to record some vocals with in the corner. i decided to grab that mic instead of the usual sm57 and i put it right up on the grill of my 4x12 cabinet and keep the volume kinda low. i tried the mic with a couple of different pres and found just what i was looking for...i cranked the pre up a lot and got a good signal with the amp at a lower volume than i'd normally play it. i compared the track i did using the Condenser Microphone on the cabinet with the track i did using POD and they were both fine for just recording a quick idea at home, but the pod sounded so bland, boring, and fake after listening to the JCM 800.

so the point of this post is this, i think i'll be micing the cab with my condensor from now on at home instead of using the pod. don't need to turn up the amp as loud because the condensor gets a WAY stronger signal than a traditional sm57. just thought you might want to try this if you're worried about the volume being a problem with your neighbors.
Old 19th May 2006
  #21
Gear Maniac
 
Cap'n Spanky's Avatar
 

Check out the videos for the Womanizer and Demonizer.

http://www.damagecontrolusa.com/products.htm

I have a Womanizer and it sounds great recorded direct! No digital modeling anywhere in the signal path. Wonderful warm tube sound!
Old 19th May 2006
  #22
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by-tor's Avatar
 

I have had great pod recording results with the little summit tube DI. You drive it a bunch of different ways to vary the tone. Very cool. I had a API mic pre after the di.....But I think the DI had line level outs? I had borrowed it to try out and now I want one...... So yeah summit tube di.
Old 21st May 2006
  #23
Here for the gear
 

Ok, I have been doing MUCH reading, thinking, further reading and I have drawn to a conclusion.

As some posters said early on, you can't beat the real thing. I have had good opportunties in the last week to listen to a lot of files capture from the Pod Pro XT series, and then sound captured through either iso cabs, or direct recording from the Mesa Recto reording preamp and Randall gear.

Hmm, yeah, there is a significant aspect missing in modelled tones. And I have been a long time fan of the versatility of Line 6 modelling.

So....

Tomorrow I think I am just going to bite the bullet and buy the Mesa Recto recording pre. It has the tones I know and can identify with, and it appears to have the qualities I want in a studio tool.

I have absolutely taken on board all comments regarding d.i path, distressors etc, and I know I will add these 'parts' of the picture as budget (aka wife) allows.

I just feel that I need to get the foundation laid correctly, and the only way to do that is to get the exact sound I want in the first place from the guitar amp-namely the recto.

Thanks to all that posted-you all rock! If anyone has had use of the recto preamp, let me know some thoughts, or hints tips etc...

Cheers
Old 22nd May 2006
  #24
Gear Addict
 
tomwehrle's Avatar
 

I'd really recommend using the outs of the pod to a amp, then mic it, then record that, you'll get a much better sound, trust me, its worth it, ive never gotten anything that great using the direct outs, everything sounds really thin doing that...and if you wanna hear some of the stuff i've recorded, just check out one of my sites below, a lot of what you hear was the pod live floor thing going out to a ampeg rocketreverb amp, i'm pretty happy with the diversity of sounds and quality of them on my projects, might not be what you're looking for though
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