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Delay Compensation DSP Audio Systems
Old 19th February 2006
  #1
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chrisrulesmore's Avatar
 

Delay Compensation

I've recently started wondering a great deal about delay compensation, or lack thereof in Pro Tools LE, and have a few thoughts, questions, etc...

My intuition is that a high-end clock source is all but useless if your plug-ins are wreaking havoc on your mix and causing phase problems. Seems to me that automatic delay compensation could far outweigh the benefits of a high end clock and I'm strongly considering switching over to Nuendo as a result.

Am I missing something here, or is this a classic case of Digidesign prosumerism?

-Chris
Old 19th February 2006
  #2
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DrDeltaM's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisrulesmore
Am I missing something here, or is this a classic case of Digidesign prosumerism?

-Chris
Seems to be a case of Digidesign prosumerism to me... About all DAW's have delay compensation now, except for PT LE. They want you to buy PT HD.
Old 19th February 2006
  #3
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Yes.
Old 19th February 2006
  #4
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toolskid's Avatar
 

there is SOME delay compensation in LE actually!!!!
Old 19th February 2006
  #5
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mrbowes's Avatar
 

I know Cubase SX3/Nuendo 3 have delay compensation, but what other DAWs out there have it?

Thanks
Old 19th February 2006
  #6
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Delay compensation doesn't really have anything to do with the quality of your wordclock.

It's a simple matter of reading the displayed amount of delay, and compensating for it manually by adding delaycomp plugins or nudging tracks.

And yes, they didn't add this in LE because they want you to buy HD. With native systems getting so powerful now, the reasons to use HD at all are decreasing. Delay compensation is one of the only things seperating the two now. This is why I don't understand why they're releasing a 48 stereo track version of LE later this year. Why would they give people less reason to upgrade?
Old 19th February 2006
  #7
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proxy's Avatar
 

If I hadn't switched from Mix to HD, I would definitely consider something like Nuendo just for that reason. Having to worry that new plugs are causing phase problems (multi-miked instruments, parallel processing, etc.), or in severe case timing/feel problems can really mess with the flow of creativity I find.

It is a key feature for me using HD, and if I was in a different budget, I probably wouldn't use PTLE.

- Justin
Old 19th February 2006
  #8
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48 tracks isn't really a bad business move.
Running 24 tracks maxed with plugins + aux maxed with plugins is a
ridiculous concept in itself. 48 tracks...maxed with plugins...etc...
It won't work. Period. And when you think about the LE market (no outboard gear)...and you throw in a little psychology. . . see where I'm headed?
Old 19th February 2006
  #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by toolskid
there is SOME delay compensation in LE actually!!!!
There is? Where?
Old 19th February 2006
  #10
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I don't think I'm following you.

It won't work? My system can run 32 tracks and countless Auxs with 5 plugins on each without so much as breaking a sweat. You might not want 5 plugins on each track, but you might want to run several resource hogging plugins on a couple of tracks. I'm sure most people who've been running LE over the years have maxed out their systems? Surely you see the benefit of increased processing power?

Most engineers that I know who use 002s use outboard gear.

Why would they empower their lower market to being almost identical in functionality to their higher market? Do you really wanna pay $7000+ more just for automatic delay compensation? If they add the capacity for more than 8 channels of external A/D conversion, there will almost literally be NO reason to own HD.

Perhaps you could elaborate a little more on this "psychology" you're talking about?
Old 19th February 2006
  #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexLakis
Why would they empower their lower market to being almost identical in functionality to their higher market? Do you really wanna pay $7000+ more just for automatic delay compensation? If they add the capacity for more than 8 channels of external A/D conversion, there will almost literally be NO reason to own HD.
Indeed, Digidesign will keep some essential features out of PT LE, simply for PT HD sales. The PT LE Music Toolkit that offers 48 tracks is only a half solution, they still don't offer key features for more pro users like I/O loop, latency compensation and more flexible AD/DA (also in number) options. I'd rather have a 32track PTLE with these key features, then the now being sold 48track Toolkit without them.
Old 19th February 2006
  #12
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrDeltaM
There is? Where?

On the digirack plugs.


Its always been there.

True Plug in compensation(including outboard also) on PT only came about when a couple of us(including our very own Dave-G) petitioned Digi over and over for years.

I remember starting an Internet hunger strike!!heh

Some people at the time thought it was a waste of time and either wasn't necessary or couldn't be done.

But those of us who were mixing in the trenches with PT exclusively new alot better.

After tirelessly waiting around i jumped ship and went back to mixing on analog(and have never looked back since).

Eventually it was implemented on PT HD version 6.4.


And now the world is a better place for it.
Old 19th February 2006
  #13
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Interesting...

Maybe similar action is required for PT LE heh
Old 20th February 2006
  #14
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Jenre's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrDeltaM
Interesting...

Maybe similar action is required for PT LE heh
There was a pretty big petition for 48 tracks in PT LE just before the release of PT7. Seems Digidesign paid attention but weren't willing to give it away for free.
Old 24th February 2006
  #15
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My apologies, I was being vague.
Take all the worst case scenarios, throw them in a bag, then have the user exclaim,
'It won't work, I need HD!".

Anyway, I don't work for Avid/Digi, so I can't say where they're going with this.
Old 24th February 2006
  #16
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Raw-Tracks's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrDeltaM
There is? Where?
PT-LE has delay compensation on all native plug-ins. e.g. Waves, McDSP, DigiRack, etc. It does not have have compensation for external plugins such as the UAD-1 card. So to say that PT-LE does not have plugin delay compensation is incorrect.
Old 24th February 2006
  #17
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popmann's Avatar
Quote:
About all DAW's have delay compensation now, except for PT LE. They want you to buy PT HD.
Yeah...but, do they WORK?

I've have Nuendo2 (combine with thrid party native plugs) KILL a multimic'd drumkit.

Just think of how it's screwing up musical timing in the process. Combine that with never rendering a MIDI track the same way twice, and...

I f'n hate computers.
Old 24th February 2006
  #18
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Dan DeTora's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by erick21
PT-LE has delay compensation on all native plug-ins. e.g. Waves, McDSP, DigiRack, etc. It does not have have compensation for external plugins such as the UAD-1 card. So to say that PT-LE does not have plugin delay compensation is incorrect.
this simply isn't true, or i'm using an outdated version (6.4 here at home). Like someone else had said, Digirack plugz have built in compensation, but things like Wave Rennaisance are not compensated for.

EX: RennComp = 64 samples of delay
Old 24th February 2006
  #19
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Raw-Tracks's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by dtrax
this simply isn't true, or i'm using an outdated version (6.4 here at home). Like someone else had said, Digirack plugz have built in compensation, but things like Wave Rennaisance are not compensated for.

EX: RennComp = 64 samples of delay
From Digi Tech support on the DUC:
http://duc.digidesign.com/showthread...=&sb=5&o=&vc=1
Old 24th February 2006
  #20
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Dan DeTora's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by erick21
mult a track to 2 aux's, insert an RComp (or any plug that induces latecy) on one but not on the other, you will get a comb filter. so whatever Digi is doing to 'compensate' for plugin latency, it's not enough.
Old 24th February 2006
  #21
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Raw-Tracks's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by dtrax
mult a track to 2 aux's, insert an RComp (or any plug that induces latecy) on one but not on the other, you will get a comb filter. so whatever Digi is doing to 'compensate' for plugin latency, it's not enough.
I'll give it a try.
Old 24th February 2006
  #22
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blueboy's Avatar
 

http://recforums.prosoundweb.com/ind...892f3e5d860bdb

Scroll down about half a page to get to the part about PTLE and PDC (or lack thereof).

JL
Old 24th February 2006
  #23
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Raw-Tracks's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by blueboy
http://recforums.prosoundweb.com/ind...892f3e5d860bdb

Scroll down about half a page to get to the part about PTLE and PDC (or lack thereof).

JL
Inconclusive.

Blueboy (referencing the recforums thread), you need to understand that the fact that PT-LE does not automatically compensate for UAD-1 plugins does not mean that PT-LE does not compensate for other plugins. Digi has made a choice not to support PDC for the UAD-1. It's an inconvenience to the user, but not that great of one. I use the UAD-1 with PT-LE and have no trouble.

You seem hung up on the fact that a lot of people seem to be under the impression that PT-LE does not have auto-PDC. Just because a lot of people are saying something does not mean it's true. Remember, a lot of people used to think the world was flat, and they were wrong.
Old 25th February 2006
  #24
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blueboy's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by erick21
Inconclusive.

Blueboy (referencing the recforums thread), you need to understand that the fact that PT-LE does not automatically compensate for UAD-1 plugins does not mean that PT-LE does not compensate for other plugins. Digi has made a choice not to support PDC for the UAD-1. It's an inconvenience to the user, but not that great of one. I use the UAD-1 with PT-LE and have no trouble.

You seem hung up on the fact that a lot of people seem to be under the impression that PT-LE does not have auto-PDC. Just because a lot of people are saying something does not mean it's true. Remember, a lot of people used to think the world was flat, and they were wrong.
Did you read the entire thread... including the description of how ADC is actually implemented in PTLE?

My understanding to this point is that ADC in PTLE is limited by the hardware buffer size, which will not compensate for some high latency plugs (e.g. Maxim - as mentioned in the PT7 manual), as well as 3rd party FX cards. Not all plugs will introduce latency, and most that do, will be compensated for by the buffer. But at some point a combination of plugs could potentially introduce more latency than can be compensated for by the buffer and synch errors will begin to occur.

PTHD and most other native DAWs do not suffer from this same buffer limitation. They may actually work the same way, but also implement some type of full PDC in addition to the hardware buffer.

If you have information to the contrary, please post it. That is why I posted this link here as I would like to know if there is any more relevant info other than what was discussed in the PSW thread.

I'd like to know exactly how "full PDC" is actually implemented, and if it differs between DAWs.

JL
Old 25th February 2006
  #25
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Well, I'm changing my tune. I just did a quick little test. I created a simple 2 track session. I put the same snare drum file on both tracks. I inserted the Waves Renaissance plugin on one track. The latency readout said 64 samples on the track with the comp inserted and there was phasing. I then removed the Ren Comp and inserted a the Digi-Rack Comp and there was no phasing and the latency readout at the bottom of the fader said "0" So, I don't know if this limited test proves that the "Digi-Rack" plugins have no latency, or they are compensated for. Or, if the Rec comp is simply not compensated for. At any rate, I can say, without a doubt, that my Ren-Comp inserted on an audio track definitely caused latency. In other words, the plugin latency on my Ren-Comp was NOT compensated for!
Old 25th February 2006
  #26
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eboy's Avatar
 

LE has a fixed 2000 samples worth of PDC, its not linked to the size of your
playback buffer iether , anything over that registers as a delay, hence if you see 64 samples with a Ren Comp thats cos it actually creates 2064 samples of delay, it doesnt matter what plug you use it will take advantage of the 2000 sample PDC, the digirack
stuff as its fairly lightweight produce less than 2000 samples of delay hence '0'
same with the included bombfactory comp and many others. UAD plugs creates
huge amounts of delay - 3000+ indicated on average (ie 5000+) - so PDCs
all there andworks for all plug-ins its just that digi are being a bit tight with
the size of buffer they are willing to give us, theyde need to triple it to cover
most situations - petition?
Old 25th February 2006
  #27
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Benmrx's Avatar
 

I've been wondering about this same thing. I've been getting by just using the digirack plugs and my limited outboard gear, and have been thinking about diving in, getting an ilok and some plugz.

If memory recalls correctly, waves are kinda known for having more latency than others. The UAD-1, Powercore, etc. has pretty noticable delay.

What about the URS stuff, and McDSP. That McDSP Project bundle looks mighty tempting.
Old 26th February 2006
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Benmrx
I've been wondering about this same thing. I've been getting by just using the digirack plugs and my limited outboard gear, and have been thinking about diving in, getting an ilok and some plugz.

If memory recalls correctly, waves are kinda known for having more latency than others. The UAD-1, Powercore, etc. has pretty noticable delay.

What about the URS stuff, and McDSP. That McDSP Project bundle looks mighty tempting.
dive in, you wont regret getting good plugs.

most RTAS plug dont produce a delay. UAD-! and PoCo will have a large delay and most waves plugs have some delay. the readout is primarly made for TDM and in LE is not always correct, you should do your own tests not just relay on the value given.
the question about URS plugs was asked here about a week ago and it was stated that they do not induce a delay. i believe most McDSP plugs are fine aswell.
there is a thread on the DUC listed most plug-ins and the delay they induce.
you are best off doing a search here and on the DUC
Old 26th February 2006
  #29
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Thanks aussie, I think I just needed someone to push me over the edge and say go for it. I'll do some research, cause I really don't want to have to nudge tracks around due to latency, so that's gonna determine which plugz I go for. So far, just from reviews on here, McDSP and URS are at the top of the my list.
Old 26th February 2006
  #30
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URS McDSP and Sony Oxford, you wont go wrong with any of them its mainly personal choice which way you want to go. do your research try demos and then buy your favourite plugs.
happy tooling
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