The No.1 Website for Pro Audio
 Search This Thread  Search This Forum  Search Reviews  Search Gear Database  Search Gear for sale  Search Gearslutz Go Advanced
Allen and Heath ZED 10-FX
Old 30th June 2010
  #1
Gear Head
 

Thread Starter
Allen and Heath ZED 10-FX

Just got an Allen and Heath ZED 10-FX and have a question about inputs. It has dual inputs for the frist 4 channels (XLR and 1/4" TRS), so you can choose one or the other. On other mixers I have owned, plugging into one renders the other inoperable. But the A & H manual says that when you plug into both the TRS AND the XLR, the two outputs are summed, so be careful. By stating you should be careful are they actually saying this is not recommended or that you can do it with care? Are they suggesting you could plug in 2 guitars (one in the TRS, one in the XLR) and send this combined signal to one channel?
Old 30th June 2010
  #2
Lives for gear
 
TurboJets's Avatar
Plugging in to the Line in automatically disables the xlr input on that channel.
Old 1st July 2010
  #3
Gear Head
 

Thread Starter
manual incorrect

TurboJets, are you saying that the A & H instruction manual is incorrect then?
Old 1st July 2010
  #4
Lives for gear
 
loujudson's Avatar
According to the block diagram, the line input is just a pair of resistors to the mic in, so they are both active just like Mackie mixers - not a great arrangement. One is for mic and one is for line, neither are for guitars (that s inputs 3 & 4).

But you can probably figure it out by experimentation - why not work on it and let us know what works best? And by "be Careful" they mean just that - you are putting a line into a mic input through a pad which is not ideal, and it does not mute the mic input!.

I have a GL2400 and it has a switch to select the line in, as it should be in a well designed mixer. The cheaper design of the smaller mixer is a compromise for economy - I wouldn't record from a line in through a mic preamp! The line would bypass the mic pre in a well-designed mixer...

The instrument inouts are a different matter, on inputs 3 & 4 instead of the line:

<http://www.allen-heath.co.uk/zed/dl/ZED_10_10FX/ZED-10FX%20BlockDiagram.pdf>

L
Old 1st July 2010
  #5
Gear Head
 

Thread Starter
A & H

So you are saying the A & H manual is correct then and that the use of the TRS line-in does not make the XLR inoperable (I will experiment with this)? My Mackie 802 VLZ3 manual stated using one input made the other inoperable (you say otherwise here), but I never checked to see if this was true. When A & H says "be cautious", are they suggesting to just take care with voulme levels then, due to the difference between a mic and line level input?

Does the "small mixer" compromise you are discussing just effect recording situations or is the sound also being compromised when the mixer is used in a live situation? Thanks for the response. I need to learn how to read block diagrams better.
Old 1st July 2010
  #6
Lives for gear
 
loujudson's Avatar
I always assume the manual is correct, at least when it is readable. The block diagram shows the line in going through risistors to drop its level and then parraleled with the mic input.

The Mackies I know are probably older than you are and I have never looked into the 803. Why not look at the block diagram? It seems to be the same, both inputs simultaneously active...

By be cautious they mean a ot of things - the line in is higher impedance and lower sensitivity - and never plug a guitar into a mic input. The wrong impedance will throw your frequency response off. The 10FX has two instrument ins on 3 & 4 that have the right preampe, impedance and level matching so just use them!

When I was in my teens and 20s we went to school to learn this - including the school of on the job training - nowaways people go to the internet. Remember you can get completely wrong information as well as perfectly true info on the web!
Old 1st July 2010
  #7
Lives for gear
 
TurboJets's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by dmp View Post
TurboJets, are you saying that the A & H instruction manual is incorrect then?
Unless the functionality is different between the ZED10 and the ZED14, yes.

I have a ZED14 and when I insert a Line signal to the Line input it disables the xlr input on my board.

To test I just had a dynamic mic plugged into channel 1, then plugged a Line level signal into the Line input...bam...xlr input for the dyn mic was immediately disabled.

I guess the only way to know for sure is for you to test your board, as you mentioned.
Old 1st July 2010
  #8
Lives for gear
 
loujudson's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by TurboJets View Post
Unless the functionality is different between the ZED10 and the ZED14, yes.

I have a ZED14 and when I insert a Line signal to the Line input it disables the xlr input on my board.

To test I just had a dynamic mic plugged into channel 1, then plugged a Line level signal into the Line input...bam...xlr input for the dyn mic was immediately disabled.

I guess the only way to know for sure is for you to test your board, as you mentioned.
It is hugely different!
See
http://www.allen-heath.co.uk/zed/dl/...4_blk_diag.pdf
where the line in interrupts the signal AFTER the mic pre - the 10FX is a different beast, as seen here:
http://www.allen-heath.co.uk/zed/dl/...ockDiagram.pdf .

BIG difference. I guess you get FX and lose some basic quality circuit desogn...

and you can't judge one unit by testing a different one!

L
Old 1st July 2010
  #9
Lives for gear
 
TurboJets's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by loujudson View Post

BIG difference. I guess you get FX and lose some basic quality circuit desogn...

and you can't judge one unit by testing a different one!

L
Did you try to help by testing yours?
Old 1st July 2010
  #10
Gear Head
 

Thread Starter
mixers

The 14 does appear to be different than the ZED 10-FX but I will experiment and figure this out. Thanks for all the help. Dave
Old 1st July 2010
  #11
Lives for gear
 
loujudson's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by TurboJets View Post
Did you try to help by testing yours?
I use mine all the time, it helps me make a living. I never put a line and a mic into thr same input, UNLESS iut is one that switches, like the ZED 14.

L
Old 2nd July 2010
  #12
Lives for gear
 
TurboJets's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by loujudson View Post
I use mine all the time, it helps me make a living. I never put a line and a mic into thr same input, UNLESS iut is one that switches, like the ZED 14.

L

and you're using a ZED series board?
Old 2nd July 2010
  #13
Lives for gear
 
loujudson's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by TurboJets View Post
and you're using a ZED series board?
Have you read the thread? I have a GL2400 as I said above. I got involved because I happen to like A&H boards. And I can read block diagrams - with the information in this thread you can learn to as well!

I'm interested in the ZED boards as I record much of my live work - and it seems the ZED has good backup strategies, with digital outs as well as a direct to feed my recorder. I'm stiduying whether I'd rather have a Presonus StudioLive or a ZED R16, so I peeked at this thread and jumped in.

L
Old 2nd July 2010
  #14
Lives for gear
 
TurboJets's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by loujudson View Post
Have you read the thread? I have a GL2400 as I said above. I got involved because I happen to like A&H boards. And I can read block diagrams - with the information in this thread you can learn to as well!

L
Of course I read the thread and understand you have a GL.

And yes, I can read block diagrams too.

And what's up with the exclamation marks man...chill out.

I posted what I found in practical application with my ZED14...and the OP has a ZED10, and I understand how the block diagram reads but it's only in hands on testing where the truth in reality is found. Sometimes block diagrams lie and aren't updated with the actual topology the unit hits the production line with, that's all. Happens all the time, any frustrated engineer will tell you that.

Hopefully dmp will report back with what he found from actually plugging stuff in.
Old 2nd July 2010
  #15
Lives for gear
 
loujudson's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by TurboJets View Post
Of course I read the thread and understand you have a GL.

And yes, I can read block diagrams too.

And what's up with the exclamation marks man...chill out.
[edit]
Hopefully dmp will report back with what he found from actually plugging stuff in.
Well, one exclamation point and no cartoons is not very excited or unchill...

The reading diagrams part was directed at the OP. He's the one that counts, hope he does respond.

But you seem a lot more upset than needed.

L
Old 2nd July 2010
  #16
Gear Head
 

Thread Starter
yes

I am working on this and will report back. Thanks. Dave
Old 2nd July 2010
  #17
Gear Head
 

Thread Starter
got it

I plugged a dynamic mike (SM57) into the channel #1 XLR and an acoustic guitar into the channel #1 TRS, and both remain active, although with seemingly less output level than if just one of them is plugged into
channel #1.

I also plugged both into Channel #3 (same setup), which A & H has designed as an "instrument" input TRS with an XLR as well and, again, both the TRS and XLR remain active, with a higher level for the TRS (probably due to the circuit design difference).

So my Mackie 802 VLX3 was different in that it rendered one input inoperable if the other input on the channel was already in use.

I'm not sure what the pros and cons are of having both inputs operable (I doubt I will use the mixer this way anyway).

Again, thanks for the interest and help.

Dave
Old 2nd July 2010
  #18
Lives for gear
 
TurboJets's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by dmp View Post
I plugged a dynamic mike (SM57) into the channel #1 XLR and an acoustic guitar into the channel #1 TRS, and both remain active, although with seemingly less output level than if just one of them is plugged into
channel #1.

I also plugged both into Channel #3 (same setup), which A & H has designed as an "instrument" input TRS with an XLR as well and, again, both the TRS and XLR remain active, with a higher level for the TRS (probably due to the circuit design difference).

So my Mackie 802 VLX3 was different in that it rendered one input inoperable if the other input on the channel was already in use.

I'm not sure what the pros and cons are of having both inputs operable (I doubt I will use the mixer this way anyway).

Again, thanks for the interest and help.

Dave
That's cool.

Interesting how they would design the functionality of the preamp sections of the 10 and the 14 so vastly different. The ability to use the line input and mic input at the same time on the ZED10 makes it a huge value IMO because the pre's are so fantastic. Nice that it works that way.
Old 3rd July 2010
  #19
Gear Head
 

Thread Starter
yes

Doesn't this double the inputs? Is there any disadvantage to using both inputs on each channel of the ZED 10-FX this way?
Old 3rd July 2010
  #20
Lives for gear
 
tuRnitUpsuM's Avatar
 

Noise -- headroom
Old 5th July 2010
  #21
Gear Head
 

Thread Starter
new question

Now I have 2 other issues. I discovered that, unlike my Mackie 802 VLZ3, when I input a TR plug into the left channel of one of the stereo channels, the signal is only sent to that channel instead of summing them to both. So I guess I have to make a single mono female to double mono male adapter if I ever want to use the 2 stereo channels as mono channels (does this sound correct?).

But my other question involves the Aux Out. I wanted to use it for my stage monitor so I can have the volume control of the monitor (Aux Out volume) near me. Presently, I only have two speakers so I unplugged the left main speaker and put it in front of me as a monitor. I left the right main speaker plugged in to the XLR Main Out. So I had a main plugged into the right XLR main out, and the other speaker plugged into the Aux Out, which has a separate volume control from the Main volume. I turned up the Aux Mix Level and there is no sound coming out of my monitor speaker. What gives?

Is it your interpretation that the Aux Out is the correct output for a stage monitor?
Old 5th July 2010
  #22
Gear interested
 

I wonder if they might have designed the 10FX that way so one can split the input. For instance Mic on chan 1 jack to jack to chan 2 for your vocal and Instrument on Chan 3 Jack to Jack on Chan 4 would give a split to adjust monitor and FOH mix seperate from each other. Ideal for a solo act.

The only thing I miss is a Jack in to mute the effects. But that can easaly be done by running the effects out over a volume foot-padel back into the desk.

How well does it work as a sound interface?
Old 5th July 2010
  #23
Gear Head
 

Thread Starter
Got it

Got the Aux Out to play. There is a separate Aux volume on each channel as well so you can individually adjust the volume for the correct mix in the monitor. But I am still wondering about the stereo channels being used for mono (do you need the female 1/4" TR to double 1/4" male TR adapter?). Dave
Old 13th July 2010
  #24
Gear Maniac
 

A&H Reply:

Hi All,

Just to reply to the original question in the thread (bit late - sorry)....
The ZED-10 is slightly different to the ZED-14 in the way the XLR & Jack connectors are configured - but there are valid reasons for each and neither should be seen as inferior.
On the ZED-14 the jack input bypasses the first stage of the pre-amp, disconnecting the XLR which has the advantage of being a slightly lower noise configuration. The ZED-10 however is different in that channels 3&4 have high impedance inputs for guitars/instruments and the pre-amp stage is preceded with a FET (field effect transistor) in Class A mode which does a good job of simulating a valve input circuit (warm 2nd harmonic soft overdrive etc).
Anyway, that's the main reason the XLR & Jack are configured like they are - so on channels 1&2 the Jack input is padded down before going through the pre-amp which is actually what happens in many mixers with mic/line switches.
Being small, we felt it was acceptable to omit the mic/line switch to save space for the swept eq etc, and as long as you plug one or the other in (preferably not both) there is no problem with performance. When I wrote "be careful" I just meant that you'd get both inputs to mix if you had them both plugged in.
Hope that helps,
Cheers,
Mike.
Old 13th July 2010
  #25
Lives for gear
 
loujudson's Avatar
Thanks Mike! It is great to get the precise answer and reasoning form the one who knows!

I was surprised again when looking into my GL2400 circuit to see how it is configured - but I certainly can't complain about how it works, especially for the price. I use mine for live sound and recording from the direct outs to HD24, and it does an excellent job,. Just want to thank your company, even though it is made in China, for good products at reasonable prices.

<L>
Old 14th July 2010
  #26
Gear Head
 

Thread Starter
more questions

Mike, thanks for weighing in on my questions about the ZED 10-FX. Thanks for also clarifyhing the "be careful" explanation. I now know I should avoid double use of a channel even though it is possible to use this configuration. Here are a few more:

- When I use a condenser mic with the phantom power, I will sometimes turn down the level and the gain (due to the absence of mute switches), and I still have a small amount of signal coming through. Why? (and do I need to turn down both the level and gain knobs when I want to mute a channel?)

- Any suggestions for ways to get around not having mute switches?

- Do I need to use a double 1/4" male (TR) into a single 1/4" female adapter if I want to use either of the stereo channels as mono inputs (any way around this?). On other mixers I have used, when you plug one input into a stereo configuration (the left channel) automatically sends the signal to both sides.

- Since the TRS inputs on channels 3 & 4 have a higher output AND an "overdrive" character for guitars, are these inputs better suited to electric rather than acoustic guitar (and, if so, should I try using TRS inputs 1 & 2 for acoustic guitar?)

Thanks for all your info. Dave
Old 14th July 2010
  #27
Gear Maniac
 

A&H Reply:

Quote:
Originally Posted by dmp View Post
Mike, thanks for weighing in on my questions about the ZED 10-FX. Thanks for also clarifyhing the "be careful" explanation. I now know I should avoid double use of a channel even though it is possible to use this configuration. Here are a few more:

- When I use a condenser mic with the phantom power, I will sometimes turn down the level and the gain (due to the absence of mute switches), and I still have a small amount of signal coming through. Why? (and do I need to turn down both the level and gain knobs when I want to mute a channel?)

- Any suggestions for ways to get around not having mute switches?

- Do I need to use a double 1/4" male (TR) into a single 1/4" female adapter if I want to use either of the stereo channels as mono inputs (any way around this?). On other mixers I have used, when you plug one input into a stereo configuration (the left channel) automatically sends the signal to both sides.

- Since the TRS inputs on channels 3 & 4 have a higher output AND an "overdrive" character for guitars, are these inputs better suited to electric rather than acoustic guitar (and, if so, should I try using TRS inputs 1 & 2 for acoustic guitar?)

Thanks for all your info. Dave

Hi Dave,

The Gain control has 10dB of gain when turned to minimum so it's best to use the Level control (effectively the fader) to isolate the mic signal from the outputs - or turn down the master o/p Level if plugging up mics. Don't forget the Aux send from the channel is Pre-Level so won't be affected by the Level control - either turn down the send (Grey knob) or more conveniently the Aux master Level to isolate any monitors running from the Aux output.

The reason the stereo input jacks don't connect in mono from one to the other is because they are each fed with either the stereo USB input or the stereo RCA phono sockets, in other words if you don't plug anything into the stereo input jacks the source is from the RCA's on ST1 (ideal for MP3 players) or from the USB input on ST2. I thought that this would be a useful feature giving a choice of connectors on ST1 and channel routing to the USB input. You can of course make up a Y lead to feed both jack sockets from a single mono plug.

I've configured the circuit to work with either acoustic (pickup/mic) or electric (single coil/humbucker) on CH3&4. You'll be able to get a great sound from an acoustic using a combination of Gain and the Boost switch on the back panel of the mixer. For most acoustics I'd recommend no boost (switch in out position) with moderate gain. For more sustain/overdrive/tone on an electric I'd suggest boost switch in and a lower setting on the Gain knob. The Boost switch increases the gain of the Class A FET stage giving more harmonics.
Don't use CH1&2 for guitars - you'll get a dull sound because the impedance will be too low for the pickup.

Hope that helps,
Cheers,
Mike.
Old 14th July 2010
  #28
Gear Head
 

alien health

what if i plug in a keyboard or other non-guitar instrument in mono 1/4" to input 3 or 4 (meant more for guitar)

will it "color" my sound? sound different than plugging into 1 or 2 line in?

i mean i would not want a non-guitar instrument (keyboard) to have a "valve" sound if you know what i mean...
Old 15th July 2010
  #29
Gear Maniac
 

A&H Reply:

Quote:
Originally Posted by musiclee View Post
alien health

what if i plug in a keyboard or other non-guitar instrument in mono 1/4" to input 3 or 4 (meant more for guitar)

will it "color" my sound? sound different than plugging into 1 or 2 line in?

i mean i would not want a non-guitar instrument (keyboard) to have a "valve" sound if you know what i mean...

It won't colour the sound as long as you don't press the Boost switch on the back panel (keep switch in out position). Then the FET circuit will be lower gain and the input will be very much the same as a normal line input as found on channels 1&2 (although higher impedance but this won't affect the signal).

Cheers,
Mike.
Old 15th July 2010
  #30
Gear Head
 

so alien,

what you are saying is,
if volumes, gains are exactly same across ch. 1-4,
and if the switch is in out position on 3-4

the ONLY difference from plugging a keyboard (instrument) into channel 1-2 or ch. 3-4
will be that 3-4 will be LOUDER, more gain?
sound character will be exactly same?
no coloration of sound?


thanks,
Lee
Loading mentioned products ...
New Reply Submit Thread to Facebook Facebook  Submit Thread to Twitter Twitter  Submit Thread to LinkedIn LinkedIn  Submit Thread to Google+ Google+  Submit Thread to Reddit Reddit 
 
Post Reply

Welcome to the Gearslutz Pro Audio Community!

Registration benefits include:
  • The ability to reply to and create new discussions
  • Access to members-only giveaways & competitions
  • Interact with VIP industry experts in our guest Q&As
  • Access to members-only sub forum discussions
  • Access to members-only Chat Room
  • Get instant access to the world's best private pro audio Classifieds for only USD $20/year
  • Promote your eBay auctions and Reverb.com listings for free
  • Remove this message!
You need an account to post a reply. Create a username and password below and an account will be created and your post entered.


 
 
Slide to join now Processing…
Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Similar Threads
Thread
Thread Starter / Forum
Replies
kevinn10 / So much gear, so little time!
20
Musicaldrops / Gear free zone - shoot the breeze!
1
jaffa / High end
1
e-smile-z / So much gear, so little time!
1
Gzabriel / Gearslutz Secondhand Gear Classifieds
0

Forum Jump