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Fact or myth? Playing mp3's degrade monitors?
Old 16th May 2010 | Show parent
  #61
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Sinocelt's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by joelpatterson View Post
Thirty years!
I don't think I can sing that long, but I'll try. Thank you for your vote of confidence, Joel. You're my #1 fan!

Bang bang bang bang... I can hear you applauding...
Old 16th May 2010 | Show parent
  #62
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by api2500 View Post
It's people like that who think because they're mastering through garageband and they borrowed their mum's iPod speakers that they make beats and know everything about this field that we know and love.
there's not actually many of them about.

it's more the ones that blow their entire student loans on half decent monitors, interfaces and valve mics and then download all the software off the internet who come on GS preaching about knowing everything.
Old 16th May 2010 | Show parent
  #63
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sinocelt View Post
I don't think I can sing that long, but I'll try. Thank you for your vote of confidence, Joel. You're my #1 fan!

Bang bang bang bang... I can hear you applauding...
It's all about proper breathing.
Old 16th May 2010 | Show parent
  #64
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api2500's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by therealbigd View Post


there's not actually many of them about.

it's more the ones that blow their entire student loans on half decent monitors, interfaces and valve mics and then download all the software off the internet who come on GS preaching about knowing everything.
We really aren't on the same wavelength.
I meant the guy who told him that. There's plenty of them about. Believe me.

TBH that sounds like a student loan well spent.
Old 16th May 2010 | Show parent
  #65
Gear Guru
 
drBill's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by theblue1 View Post
It's often said that a null-test is as much a test of the person creating the test as anything. There are so many variables at play that snip snip snip
It's amazing to me how any thread can turn in to a nulling thread.

That's what I miss MOST about analog.

No nulling tests......

Old 16th May 2010 | Show parent
  #66
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I nulled your mom.
Old 16th May 2010 | Show parent
  #67
Gear Addict
 
Sinocelt's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by theblue1 View Post
It's all about proper breathing.
We French people undergo special training so that we can keep talking (usually about ourselves) for days without the need to take a breath.

This is called EVOLUTION.
Old 16th May 2010
  #68
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Lifted's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by mikedevelta View Post
Hi guys,

I've heard some guys reserve they're pristine monitors for playback of wavs only in fear that mp3's (especially low quality) may actually degrade them.
Is this true?
heh ...not true.

MP3 has much less frequencies to begin with (compared to wav), so I mean how is it going to damage it?

This is hilarious man, who told you this nonsense?
Old 16th May 2010 | Show parent
  #69
Quote:
Originally Posted by drBill View Post
It's amazing to me how any thread can turn in to a nulling thread.

That's what I miss MOST about analog.

No nulling tests......

Hey, Doc!

I
was actually calling into question what I would consider a mis-application of null-testing in this case. As I know you know, null-testing is difficult to set up and do properly and then the results must be viewed quite narrowly, with a careful eye to what conclusions can and cannot be derived from any particular test.

Null-testing is great for proving two digital files are identical or very close -- but there are so many variables which must be eliminated for such testing to be 'accurate' -- and it is so easy for those not 101% drilled into the methodology to come up with inappropriate conclusions -- that I, too, regret the buzz-think some currently attach to the method.

(Not to say it's not a valuable test in some very narrow circumstances -- just that the general idea is sometimes only hazily understood and, all too often, important particulars are often missed or misinterpreted.)
Old 16th May 2010 | Show parent
  #70
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sinocelt View Post
We French people undergo special training so that we can keep talking (usually about ourselves) for days without the need to take a breath.

This is called EVOLUTION.
heh

Or maybe MEvolution...
Old 16th May 2010 | Show parent
  #71
Gear Addict
 
Sinocelt's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by theblue1 View Post
heh

Or maybe MEvolution...
Good one!

... and good night.
Old 16th May 2010 | Show parent
  #72
Gear Nut
 

I would like to standardize the answer to all questions forever more on GS. These generic answer come from feeding all previous answers on any questions in GS into a computer to compute a generic catch-all reply that can be used to save readers the hassle of sifting through threads.



It depends on your system:
The Mac OS is better for music. Vista is horrible. XP was golden. Windows 7 looks promising. Macs are overpriced. You get what you pay for. Choice is good/bad. Jobs is a bastard/hero. We don't mention Gates... ever.

It depends on your sound card:
You can really only depend on anything made by Apogee. RME users get a pass, but that pass comes with a sneer behind your back. Any other sound card is completely invalid. If you use anything else, it's like tying a cup and a string to an A to D converter.

It depends on your firewire chipset:
If it isn't TI, you must get a comp that has the TI chipset and retest before you can even ask the question.

It depends on your DAW:
They all sound different. They all sound the same. ADC means nothing/everything. Null tests decide all/are irrelevant.

It depends on your experience:
Everyone else here knows more than you. You asked the question. By default, you are on the lowest rung on a ladder full of urinary incontinent gear enthusiasts, myself included.

It depends on all your other gear:
Your gear sucks. Ours is always better and we know exactly what we're doing with it, unless you follow the link to our music we left in our sig. Then you'll discover what I did in 1986: Buying the butterfly pants, bandanas and zippered jacket still didn't mean that I could breakdance.

If you need a tie-breaker:
Ask Lagerfelt. He's the nicest guy on here and offers great advice in a friendly manner.

And for balance:
Search for Shanabit. He calls it how he sees it and isn't afraid to play the gadfly.



So using the above matrix, I must come to the conclusion that unless you're playing your mp3s on a mac through a TI chipset through Pro Tools or Logic, you're likely to damage your system. Oh, unless you used waves plug-ins to master the waves/aiffs before the conversion. Then you're probably okay. But of course, if you didn't pay for the WUP... oh, I almost forgot. Reaper looks promising. Look into it. It really kicks the llama's ass.



Btw, I'm only having fun. I enjoyed the question and ALL the responses. I even learned a bit.
Old 16th May 2010 | Show parent
  #73
Lives for gear
 
Graal's Avatar
 

Bullsh*t!

Those guys are nuts. It's the same thing.
Only the quality of the song itself is degraded when converted to mp3, not the analog signal.


(PS: I didn't read the whole thread, just the title and a few posts)

Cheers!
Old 16th May 2010 | Show parent
  #74
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by audiopablo View Post
I would like to standardize the answer to all questions forever more on GS. These generic answer come from feeding all previous answers on any questions in GS into a computer to compute a generic catch-all reply that can be used to save readers the hassle of sifting through threads.



It depends on your system:
The Mac OS is better for music. Vista is horrible. XP was golden. Windows 7 looks promising. Macs are overpriced. You get what you pay for. Choice is good/bad. Jobs is a bastard/hero. We don't mention Gates... ever.

It depends on your sound card:
You can really only depend on anything made by Apogee. RME users get a pass, but that pass comes with a sneer behind your back. Any other sound card is completely invalid. If you use anything else, it's like tying a cup and a string to an A to D converter.

It depends on your firewire chipset:
If it isn't TI, you must get a comp that has the TI chipset and retest before you can even ask the question.

It depends on your DAW:
They all sound different. They all sound the same. ADC means nothing/everything. Null tests decide all/are irrelevant.

It depends on your experience:
Everyone else here knows more than you. You asked the question. By default, you are on the lowest rung on a ladder full of urinary incontinent gear enthusiasts, myself included.

It depends on all your other gear:
Your gear sucks. Ours is always better and we know exactly what we're doing with it, unless you follow the link to our music we left in our sig. Then you'll discover what I did in 1986: Buying the butterfly pants, bandanas and zippered jacket still didn't mean that I could breakdance.

If you need a tie-breaker:
Ask Lagerfelt. He's the nicest guy on here and offers great advice in a friendly manner.

And for balance:
Search for Shanabit. He calls it how he sees it and isn't afraid to play the gadfly.



So using the above matrix, I must come to the conclusion that unless you're playing your mp3s on a mac through a TI chipset through Pro Tools or Logic, you're likely to damage your system. Oh, unless you used waves plug-ins to master the waves/aiffs before the conversion. Then you're probably okay. But of course, if you didn't pay for the WUP... oh, I almost forgot. Reaper looks promising. Look into it. It really kicks the llama's ass.



Btw, I'm only having fun. I enjoyed the question and ALL the responses. I even learned a bit.
somebody else did a 'answer every question on the forum' post about 2-3 days ago.

sorry to urinate on your parade.
Old 17th May 2010 | Show parent
  #75
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by therealbigd View Post
somebody else did a 'answer every question on the forum' post about 2-3 days ago.

sorry to urinate on your parade.
Maybe I read it and forgot I did. I 'd better not write any music for a few weeks; I just might copy that, too.

Thanks for the heads up. Btw, total thread jack: Which Blue mic do you like best for male vocals. I'm thinking about picking one up.
Old 17th May 2010 | Show parent
  #76
Gear Head
 
mikedevelta's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by theblue1 View Post
Oh, yeah... thanks very much, I had not realized it might look like I was being critical of him!

Yes, for sure, he was doing the right thing and trying to get to the bottom of it.

It's the people who spout nonsense as gospel that get me on my high horse.

Mind you, we can all be wrong from time to time -- and that's why it's important for us all to check our facts -- and remain open to contrary points of view.


FWIW, I'd love to hear the original theorist's rationale for how playing mp3s could degrade a monitor... (I mean, beyond normal wear and tear and compared with a non-Mp3 of the same material.)

Never really had a theory other than the general view that mp3's are inferior in resolution and not really understanding the signal chain involved in their conversion back to an analog signal it just sort of left me out in the dark.
Anyway after reading some of these replies I'm definitely going to be upgrading my hardware.
Where do I get my hands on one of those sm7's ? I heard the vintage ones have a smoother top end and definitely won't hurt my *brand new* speakers. Ching Ching heh
Old 17th May 2010 | Show parent
  #77
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by audiopablo View Post
Which Blue mic do you like best for male vocals. I'm thinking about picking one up.
Depends, they have different characteristics.

I think the Baby Bottle is great, every time I put that on people's vocals, the first thing my engineer-friends comment on on my tracks is 'vocals sound really nice' etc. Always use the Blue Bottle straight into Focusrite Voicemaster pre, with nothing special on that. In my friends Avalon it sounds even better. It's also useful for people with sillibance problems, it's top end roll-off works as good as any pop-shield, and it's own wire pop shield is very good.

The Blue 8-ball is great for spoken word though, really clear cut mic. And it works great in kick drums. But overall, for vocals, I really rate my Baby Bottle


But yes, off topic!
Old 17th May 2010 | Show parent
  #78
Gear Maniac
 

In OP's defence.

I'm defending OP.

Firstly: this **** is slightly magical; there's a depth of physics involved in what we do that I don't think anyone knows everything about, combined with a complexity of inter-related systems that can deliver surprisingly unintuitive results.

Even when you've dispelled the "magical ****" with... you know... knowledge... I'd still say it's better to err on the side of gullible.

I mean... maybe the mp3 thing was based on the idea that the mp3's wave form would be more jagged, and this micro acceleration of the cone would have some detrimental affect.

See?

Now let's leave this all behind and get back to nulling an sm7 with Anthony Keatus' Goldenage Vovo Cable.



Actually, wait, now that I've defended OP, I will say, people dropping ignorant opinions like they're the dude to listen to are very unproductive humans.
Old 17th May 2010 | Show parent
  #79
Gear Head
 
McLies's Avatar
 

I've been waiting for someone else to apply a bit of thought on this thread. I was dismissive of the idea that playing MP3s through nice top end monitors was harmful.

After reading every reply, and getting a little education in the process, I've found myself wondering how much the restricted frequency range of mp3s would eventually affect the 'long term' wearing in of the monitors.

Does anyone else here have a thought about that?
Old 17th May 2010 | Show parent
  #80
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Xander's Avatar
Adding some fuel to the fire here. I read a lot of posts here that mentioned breaking in their speakers. Here are a couple very informative articles on the subject.

Speaker Break In: Fact or Fiction? — Reviews and News from Audioholics

http://bruce.coppola.name/audio/BurnInLegend.pdf

The bottom line is, it is your ears that are doing the long-term breaking in, not the speakers. When a driver is used for the very first time, the suspension may have an initial "break-in," which will lower the Fs, and raise the compliance, which can affect other parameters. However, this is done during product testing. After that, there are no long-term changes in the Fs or the compliance of the drivers.

Any changes that occur are subtle and will occur within the first couple seconds of operation, every time. These changes will gradually reverse themselves once the driver rests for a bit. Also, all of these changes fall within the driver-to-driver spec variation, so the difference between two of the same drivers can often be larger than the difference of one driver pre-and post-break-in.

Flame on!
Old 17th May 2010
  #81
No

Quote:
Originally Posted by mikedevelta View Post
Hi guys,

I've heard some guys reserve they're pristine monitors for playback of wavs only in fear that mp3's (especially low quality) may actually degrade them.
Is this true?
Total, unadulterated, 100% crap.
Old 17th May 2010 | Show parent
  #82
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MrCrowbar's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by api2500 View Post
Are you kidding? Are you actually having a bubble?
Your joking right?
Nope.

Quote:
Originally Posted by api2500 View Post
Psychoacoustics, what you're referring to, is the process your brain goes through when its "compensating for the missing stuff".
Hi-fi systems and Car sound systems all do this all the time, and in fact its easier on the ear as Low Frequency signals have a lot of wave energy which would hurt your ears (Clubs, Gigs etc). Instead these speaker systems have a higher peak lift above the physical speaker limits and the ear interprets that as 'a clear deep bass'.
Quote:
Originally Posted by api2500 View Post
Almost all portable radios cannot reproduce anything under 80hz and does that hurt your brain? No.
Actually, I find the sound of portable radios and most stock car audio systems unbearable. The kick drums and bass lines are just completely gone as well as the body of most instruments. I really don't get how people enjoy listening to music on these crummy portable things.

Quote:
Originally Posted by api2500 View Post
Psychoacoustics is the way the brain responds to sound in all ways, things like the loudness button doesn't introduce more gain, but all it does it increase High Frequency and Low Frequency content in the infamous 'smiley face' curve. Listening to that probably would cause headaches but MP3s are not damaging to the ear/cause cancer/kill children blah blah blah.
I didn't say (write) that it's bad for you. It's just this modulated wobbling of cymbals, the grumbly noise floor and the joint stereo encoding (kinda like Mid Side recording but backwards) that I can hear but get used to if I have to. It's like a snoring spouse, crying baby, tinitus or a woodpicker trying to make a nest in your skull. It's highly annoying at first, you can get used to it over time but you still feel very relieved when it's over.

Quote:
Originally Posted by api2500 View Post
I fathom the only reason you could get headaches from MP3s is by turning the volume up on your iPod too loud. Not a single iPod user has complained that the format they are using causes their ears to bleed.
Well, the earbuds they come with are so terribly bad that you don't get much sound through anyway. Try listening to an old MP3 (old means encoded in the early days of MP3 compression, circa 1995) through a mid or high end converter and headphones that can actually reproduce those bad artifacts nicely.


Quote:
Originally Posted by api2500 View Post
WAVs and AIFFs are lossless and preferable when mixing because they are truer to the orignal but most importantly, can be the derivative to all other formats e.g. MP3, OGG, MP4 and MOV Audio etc.
Duh. :-)

Quote:
Originally Posted by api2500 View Post
There is no way that your brain compensating for anything could ever hurt it i.e. Optical Illusions, Eyes changing to lighting conditions, mental maths. etc
Erm... all those things you mentioned actually do cause headaches or other forms of discomfort.

We learned in driving school that driving through an alley with trees on both sides can be a bit dangerous because your brain gets tired of the constant change between light and dark (the sunlight coming through between the trees) and it can be quite nauseating after a while.

Optical illusions: Watch two 3D movies in a row (or one 3D movie without the glasses) in a theatre.

It's not really hurting the brain (I think), but it's a challenging activity making it work a little more than idling around during your daily routine. Your brain needs to rest from time to time and listening to "bad" MP3s all day while working a desk job for instance can defy the purpose of having relaxing music.
Old 17th May 2010 | Show parent
  #83
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Xander's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrCrowbar View Post
Erm... all those things you mentioned actually do cause headaches or other forms of discomfort.
Exactly my thoughts, haha.

It's like sitting in front of a computer screen for 10 hours gives some people headaches. Walking outside in the winter on a sunday day hurts if you try to keep your eyes open.

When I was in music theory classes, I got headaches from doing some of the really long homework assignments because I was not used to thinking not that way, and it was stressful.

There is a girl who I tutor in math who would definitely say that mental math can create headaches.

I think that certain sounds or forms of sound could definitely give me a headache. Bose surround systems being one example.
Old 17th May 2010 | Show parent
  #84
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T'Mershi Duween's Avatar
 

The fact is, mp3's ruin music, not gear. heh

Now if you listen to mp3's as your main audio "source"...
Old 17th May 2010 | Show parent
  #85
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api2500's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrCrowbar View Post
Nope.





Actually, I find the sound of portable radios and most stock car audio systems unbearable. The kick drums and bass lines are just completely gone as well as the body of most instruments. I really don't get how people enjoy listening to music on these crummy portable things.



I didn't say (write) that it's bad for you. It's just this modulated wobbling of cymbals, the grumbly noise floor and the joint stereo encoding (kinda like Mid Side recording but backwards) that I can hear but get used to if I have to. It's like a snoring spouse, crying baby, tinitus or a woodpicker trying to make a nest in your skull. It's highly annoying at first, you can get used to it over time but you still feel very relieved when it's over.



Well, the earbuds they come with are so terribly bad that you don't get much sound through anyway. Try listening to an old MP3 (old means encoded in the early days of MP3 compression, circa 1995) through a mid or high end converter and headphones that can actually reproduce those bad artifacts nicely.




Duh. :-)



Erm... all those things you mentioned actually do cause headaches or other forms of discomfort.

We learned in driving school that driving through an alley with trees on both sides can be a bit dangerous because your brain gets tired of the constant change between light and dark (the sunlight coming through between the trees) and it can be quite nauseating after a while.

Optical illusions: Watch two 3D movies in a row (or one 3D movie without the glasses) in a theatre.

It's not really hurting the brain (I think), but it's a challenging activity making it work a little more than idling around during your daily routine. Your brain needs to rest from time to time and listening to "bad" MP3s all day while working a desk job for instance can defy the purpose of having relaxing music.
Please understand that these things that you are so adamantly remarking on has been written in depth by people who understand a hell of a lot more then you.

Please do yourself a favour and read Sound and Recording by Francis Rumsey and Tim McCormick. It's on every university's reading lists and will put your own theories down the pan. Honestly, no hostilities. Just read it.
Old 17th May 2010 | Show parent
  #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by api2500 View Post
Please understand that these things that you are so adamantly remarking on has been written in depth by people who understand a hell of a lot more then you.

Please do yourself a favour and read Sound and Recording by Francis Rumsey and Tim McCormick. It's on every university's reading lists and will put your own theories down the pan. Honestly, no hostilities. Just read it.
To be honest, if you want the attitude of 'if it's not in my university textbook, it doesn't exist', then stick with university, and don't get into studios. because real studio work is all about doing everything that academia would tell you not to.

I think he's absolutely right. Everybody's got things that set them off, and make listening uncomfortable or distracting. For some that's poor conversion, for others it's the muddiness of the bass in cheap speakers, for me it's the stereo centre not being where I consider centre.

'these things have been written about by people who know more than you' 'it'll put your theories down the pan' ???? if that's your attitude to music, go and play with your textbooks and university lecturers in a nice classroom where you're safe from the world. every world-changing record that's ever been made happened because people stepped over the line.

I don't think, outside the acoustics forum, I ever want to read 'my textbook said' ever again on this forum.

he's only commented on what distracts him personaly - your textbooks have no substance to argue with his own experiences.
Old 17th May 2010 | Show parent
  #87
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api2500's Avatar
OK. Look up Pip Williams. He is currently teaching at my university and see who he's worked with. Thats the kind of calibre where I am getting information from.

Not just books, google, or reading lists but more experienced people who have worked with more amazing people than I have and I dare say you have.

There is education for a reason and you cannot slate it when you have no experience of University education in Music Technology.
Old 17th May 2010 | Show parent
  #88
Here for the gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by robertshaw View Post
well yeah if ti it sounds bad enough you may poke the speaker with a sharp object out of disgust and destroy it.
right!!.. but seriously playing mp3 will not seriously damage your monitor. I sometimes play mp3 for a whole day as of now my monitor still work fine
Old 17th May 2010 | Show parent
  #89
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by api2500 View Post
OK. Look up Pip Williams. He is currently teaching at my university and see who he's worked with. Thats the kind of calibre where I am getting information from.
Oh yes let's start name dropping because you don't have any other way to justify your points.

Quote:
Not just books, google, or reading lists but more experienced people who have worked with more amazing people than I have and I dare say you have.
So what?? Because 'pip williams' has worked with whoever-the-hell, your points are somehow so much more educated and spot on and everyone should bow down to your almighty knowledge.

Quote:
There is education for a reason and you cannot slate it when you have no experience of University education in Music Technology.
Don't I?

I would say you have no experience of my educational background.

So which are you at? SAE or TVU? Because you fit either stereotype perfectly - too dumb to see past the lectures and textbooks, and too stubborn to see it.

I don't care if you get lectured by a team comprising of Brendan O'Brien, Chris Lord-Alge and Eddie Kramer. It doesn't make YOU any better.
And by the way - how many of them are grads?

This is a forum, it exists so people with different opinions can come together and discuss them. Those with open minds can leave it with a great deal of knowledge. Those who come on with 'im a student with pip williams so I knows more than you noobz' attitudes learn nothing, and contribute nothing.

little lesson, nobody gives one about pip fcking williams. people care about what the ears tell them on hear, not what some stubborn student tells them because they heard it off any one person in a lecture or textbook.
Old 17th May 2010 | Show parent
  #90
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by api2500 View Post
OK. Look up Pip Williams. He is currently teaching at my university and see who he's worked with. Thats the kind of calibre where I am getting information from.
Here's something Pip says often..."opinions are like assholes, everyone's got one."
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