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presonus firebox vs focusrite saffire usb 6
Old 19th April 2010 | Show parent
  #31
Gear Maniac
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by travisinhell View Post
14ms might be ok for some soft synths, but it's not ok for anything else, imo. i know what the research says on latency, but i call bull****. if my brain tells me that things don't feel right, well it's time to move on. why do you think these interface manufacturers strive for lower latency?
Well, if you're recording a band a Firebox is a no brainer to avoid!

I will say that this thread has definitely enlightened me in a way
that makes me regret the purchase! I'm going to test the latency via that centrance ltu program.


Quote:
Originally Posted by travisinhell View Post
i feel the same about presonus. look on the front of your firebox. the gain markings say -10 to 30 db for instrument, 0 to 60 db for mic. what's up with that? what about the buffer settings for the firebox? the lowest setting says 2ms but is actually 14ms. also, anyone remember the 96 khz fiasco.......whoops.....guess they thought they were fooling their customers for a minute. how about that uber loud headphone amp to offset the weak preamps while monitoring? i just don't trust those guys - this stuff is wayyy shady. heh
My firebox doesn't have the 0-60DB designation but I purchased mine relatively recently as opposed to others that paid $299.99
Still I agree with both you and Keith but with my mic I don't have issues.
I know I would if I had the SM7B I want, though.


Quote:
Originally Posted by travisinhell View Post
performance isn't any better when they both work within their given bandwidths, and i don't have a ti chipset btw (i think that point is grossly over-blamed for performance issues).

to be honest, i never tried using all of the inputs simultaneously on the firebox because i hated it from the get go. i have used all of the inputs on the ftu, and it works as expected. i use this thing at home and typically only use a couple of channels at a time, but it's nice having the other inputs when jamming/recording with others.
I just have no faith in M-audio which is why I avoid them.
My only good experience with M-audio (believe it or not?)
I own a pair of solid EX66 monitors I got from Craigslist, but traded a swiss watch for them so I took a risk, costing me $300 for the pair.

They do no exhibit any of the purported issues that I've read about.
I can understand though if you had dynamic mics/equipment, and had to turn up the crap gain only to hear noise from them, yeah I see your POV
much more clearly now!


Quote:
Originally Posted by travisinhell View Post
i don't run 64 bit. i don't see any real benefits in doing so at this point, unless you just like to use bigger numbers. heh maybe in a few more years.

with high performance mode off, and at the 128 sample buffer setting, latency is 5ms here on xp 32 bit.
There are many benefits to running a 64bit OS/DAW host...

FWIW I run 7 EWQL libraries (ranging from 40GB-270GB)
I also run Symphobia, Ethno World 4, SSD Plat, Alicia's Keys,
Komplete 6, Addictive Drums, Gladiator, Omnishpere and more that I can't remember right now...

My templates can reach many instances of these VSTi's and can run around 40-80 instrument tracks. So, *I* need the 12GB of DDR3 memory I run, which has nothing to do with wanting to tell people I have a big e-penis with regard to specs, because truth be told...I get *all* of my gear either used, or at obscenely low prices via negotiation-because I don't have a money tree plantation in my yard...come to think of it I don't even have a yard.


Being here at GS has given me so much knowledge because people like you and Keith speak up, which is what any subjective forum needs.

I just find it hard to believe M-audio could produce a fine audio interface, but thanks to this forum I may just give one a try.
One last thing.

I've had acoustic guitars, hardware ROMpler synth, mics, bass players play directly into the firebox.
The latency wasn't detecting to the point where the players couldn't play to a click track?
Old 19th April 2010 | Show parent
  #32
Gear Maniac
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr.Innovation View Post
There are many benefits to running a 64bit OS/DAW host...

FWIW I run 7 EWQL libraries (ranging from 40GB-270GB)
I also run Symphobia, Ethno World 4, SSD Plat, Alicia's Keys,
Komplete 6, Addictive Drums, Gladiator, Omnishpere and more that I can't remember right now...

My templates can reach many instances of these VSTi's and can run around 40-80 instrument tracks. So, *I* need the 12GB of DDR3 memory I run, which has nothing to do with wanting to tell people I have a big e-penis with regard to specs, because truth be told...I get *all* of my gear either used, or at obscenely low prices via negotiation-because I don't have a money tree plantation in my yard...come to think of it I don't even have a yard.


Being here at GS has given me so much knowledge because people like you and Keith speak up, which is what any subjective forum needs.

I just find it hard to believe M-audio could produce a fine audio interface, but thanks to this forum I may just give one a try.
One last thing.

I've had acoustic guitars, hardware ROMpler synth, mics, bass players play directly into the firebox.
The latency wasn't detecting to the point where the players couldn't play to a click track?
it sounds like you make use of the extra ram with the sample libraries. 2gb is more than i need, believe it or not. i don't use much sample based stuff, and the soft synths that i use are pretty lite - i wouldn't be using those if i could afford the hardware stuff.

on interfaces - i wasn't expecting what i got when i bought the ftu from a member here. it's just my opinion, but this thing is just about perfect for home use. it sounds good, performs good, and the feature set is everything that i need. if it ends up being reliable, i'll have no complaints.

fwiw, i can play guitar to a click at 40ms latency, really, i've done it. ime though, the higher the latency, the less i enjoy playing through an interface, and high latency definitely does has an impact on feel for me. it feels tiring, like i'm working to keep things together. if i have the option, i'll take hardware monitoring any day over software monitoring, but a few ms isn't so bad.

and btw, don't take me as an m-audio fanboi. i'm sure that m-audio has a turd or two in their product line. i hear that the fast track and fast track pro (not ultra or ultra 8r) suck, and i don't doubt it. on the other hand, i've seen nearly nothing but glowing reviews of the profire stuff. it would be nice if these interface companies could get their **** together and provide solid products from top to bottom. it's a full time hobby in itself trying to keep up with what's good and bad. i've stepped on a few landmines myself.
Old 19th April 2010 | Show parent
  #33
Gear Maniac
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by travisinhell View Post
it sounds like you make use of the extra ram with the sample libraries. 2gb is more than i need, believe it or not. i don't use much sample based stuff, and the soft synths that i use are pretty lite - i wouldn't be using those if i could afford the hardware stuff.
lol! All my life I've had computers that, well, eh crashed or didn't work right. I once had a pro tools rig, nothing fancy, just a 002 rack, which did work, but computer died: The end of music for me for a long time!

I was going to buy a Mac Pro to avoid headache and bite the big one because I had saved
up enough money to actually get a Nehalem Mac Pro, wow, right?

Anyway, I thought I'd search Craigslist and after tough negotiation, a little patience
and tons of perseverance I got this computer I have now off of Craigslist.
It turns out this was a $4,000.00 (at the time) Velocity Micro Gaming Rig.

I guess I got extremely lucky because the system consisted of an i7 2.93ghz W/6GB of Corsair 1600 DDR3 Ram, a topower 1,000watt PSU, modified aluminum Lian Li case, a push pull fan design system, an ATi 4870X2 with 4 VelociRaptors and one Hitachi Desktar 1TB drive all for $600.00! it even came with a Velocity Micro portfolio, and Razer Death Adder mouse.

I was going to buy a Mac Pro because I was tired of having issues, hehe
Well, EastWest (at that time) had a 2fer1 promo. So I went crazy.
(With the extra money saved from getting this i7 I was sold on EWQL (at that time)

So once I got this system, I took it to Vision Daw
(awesome professional DAW builders bar none!) and for a pretty attractive price point I now have a transformed DAW with much better parts. they even installed all of my software and tested it/and made sure it would run properly with my lowly Firebox.

Apparently the DSP isn't as bad like the analog circuitry obviously is!
Which might explain why using VSTi's I get RTL of 9ms which isn't pretty but playable I think.

Quote:
Originally Posted by travisinhell View Post
on interfaces - i wasn't expecting what i got when i bought the ftu from a member here. it's just my opinion, but this thing is just about perfect for home use. it sounds good, performs good, and the feature set is everything that i need. if it ends up being reliable, i'll have no complaints.

fwiw, i can play guitar to a click at 40ms latency, really, i've done it. ime though, the higher the latency, the less i enjoy playing through an interface, and high latency definitely does has an impact on feel for me. it feels tiring, like i'm working to keep things together. if i have the option, i'll take hardware monitoring any day over software monitoring, but a few ms isn't so bad.

and btw, don't take me as an m-audio fanboi. i'm sure that m-audio has a turd or two in their product line. i hear that the fast track and fast track pro (not ultra or ultra 8r) suck, and i don't doubt it. on the other hand, i've seen nearly nothing but glowing reviews of the profire stuff. it would be nice if these interface companies could get their **** together and provide solid products from top to bottom. it's a full time hobby in itself trying to keep up with what's good and bad. i've stepped on a few landmines myself.
Exactly.
I don't see you as a fanboi.
You have a product that works and it works well.

It's weird and I don't understand it at all.
I mean the Centrance LTU tester tests using the analog input/outputs right?

K, so...Why or even HOW is this possible that I am able to record my keyboard, mic and the latency isn't as ****ty as the tester says they are supposed to be???

I did a screen grab after testing using the LTU mentioned in this thread:

WTF!!!!????
That is worse than abysmally pitiful isn't it?

Kthanxbai
Attached Thumbnails
presonus firebox vs focusrite saffire usb 6-latency.jpg  
Old 20th April 2010 | Show parent
  #34
Gear Maniac
 
🎧 10 years
if you aren't feeling any problems with that latency........don't let me put a problem in your head. i pointed out the flaws in the firebox to maybe help out the original poster. i hate the thing (still have it, btw). if the preamps were worth a damn, i'd use it as a standalone for the ftu, but that ain't gonna happen.
Old 20th April 2010 | Show parent
  #35
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hello people's Avatar
People really need to stop saying 'no brainer'...in any and all contexts

Old 20th April 2010 | Show parent
  #36
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hello people's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by travisinhell View Post
maybe it has been a tank, but that has nothing to do with performance or sound of the unit. what does that mean any way? have you been driving your firebox to the middle east to shoot down terrists? heh
Also...I should point out..that there are no terrorists in the middle east...the terrorists all wear business suits and sell things like Coke and American Idol.
Old 20th April 2010 | Show parent
  #37
Gear Maniac
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by hello people View Post
Also...I should point out..that there are no terrorists in the middle east...the terrorists all wear business suits and sell things like Coke and American Idol.
yea, you're probably right on about that one.
Old 20th April 2010 | Show parent
  #38
Lives for gear
 
hello people's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by travisinhell View Post
look on the front of your firebox. the gain markings say -10 to 30 db for instrument, 0 to 60 db for mic. what's up with that? what about the buffer settings for the firebox? the lowest setting says 2ms but is actually 14ms. also, anyone remember the 96 khz fiasco.......whoops.....guess they thought they were fooling their customers for a minute. how about that uber loud headphone amp to offset the weak preamps while monitoring? i just don't trust those guys - this stuff is wayyy shady. heh
Classic stuff. Exactly right. Firebox is good for a first timer...can be used as an adda...but yeah...the headphone vol...all that...it all spells nlsehtlvie4htmhgty

As for the latency...6ms for me...no delays...I hit a midi note...any synth/ plugin...it's instant. There's no problem. All this centrance ltu talk and how the Firebox has outrageous latency...well that's not in my experience.

And one final thing...can people stop talking about 'oh the converters are so **** man'...like you can hear a converter? Come on! Stop with the converter peackocking
Old 20th April 2010 | Show parent
  #39
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KeithMoonwannabe's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
converters do affect the sound though, poor conversion will translate your mixes poorly and you will lose clarity and headroom both in recording and in monitoring. Preamps and converters both do and for most low end rigs people don't have some esoteric set of preamps and ad converters to use so they rely on their audio interface for the best sonic image of their source material.

Compare conversion on some of the first USB 1 audio interfaces (the ones that were like 16 bit / 44.1 khz resolution with barely any dynamic range) to those of a high end Pro Tools HD rig (that can do 24 bit / 192 kHz resolution with a dynamic range exceeding 120dB) and tell me you cannot HEAR the difference in the conversion. Try multitracking with both and see which yields a better mix (assuming the latency and such weren't issues).

And as to how you guys want me to stop criticizing the Firebox, I'm entitled to my opinion and while it works for people hell I made it work for me at one point and it was $300 a couple years ago (that should be a huge indicator of why it'd be stupid to buy one). Maybe you guys are unaware but technology changes and improves all the time. Technology not only improves but it gets cheaper. So think about it why buy an interface that has a design that's what 4-5 years old when you can get something with technology and designing that is like a year old if even for the same price? I'm not afraid to be blunt and just come out and say you could spend your money much wiser because there are options that will work better for EVERYONE subjective opinion aside and that doesn't mean they have to be more expensive. I'm sorry I didn't feel it was that great when it came out nor do I still think it's that great, frankly I wish I had been able to get the EMU 1616m for my laptop like I'd planned to buy GC screwed up my spo and sent it back to EMU and then they couldn't order it back for me so I had to take a Firebox since at the time it was the only other interface that would allow me to record at least 4 simultaneous inputs and be compatible with my laptop at the time.

Frankly pull your head out of the biased audio mag reviews and use your own damn ears to formulate subjective opinions like I do. My opinions are based on my experiences not on someone elses.

I'm posting my opinions and experience to help the original poster not to attack you guys ok? If they ask me which of those two are the better choice it's honestly NO CONTEST!

Quit defending your purchase because if you honestly had experience with all these interfaces like I have you would know that I'm right instead of pointlessly arguing with me about something you read in a magazine or read in a forum by Joe Nobody.

Regardless of what's on paper I used the Firebox enough to know that it lacked in every area. Why bother purchasing one or keep one to use for any purpose if they sell for $150 used sell yours and buy something halfway decent by investing at most another $50-$150.

I don't hate all Presonus products but I do hate the Firebox I think it's a useless piece of junk especially by the standards of today's recording equipment. Maybe if it were $100 and someone was just starting out I'd say hey give it a try but frankly I'd tell them to save their money and buy the EMU or whatever they really want/need to save themself the time and money in the long run.
Old 20th April 2010 | Show parent
  #40
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tysonviolin's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Is Focusrite spamming our forums?
Old 20th April 2010 | Show parent
  #41
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KeithMoonwannabe's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by tysonviolin View Post
Is Focusrite spamming our forums?
what are you talking about?
Old 20th April 2010 | Show parent
  #42
Gear Maniac
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by KeithMoonwannabe View Post
converters do affect the sound though, poor conversion will translate your mixes poorly and you will lose clarity and headroom both in recording and in monitoring. Preamps and converters both do and for most low end rigs people don't have some esoteric set of preamps and ad converters to use so they rely on their audio interface for the best sonic image of their source material.
My mixes don't suffer, and this is why you fail at conveying your highly bunk opinion. The firebox isn't junk. Most people that don't like their gear
know how to speak...they don't use words like "hate" to describe them.
(It sounds like you're taking it personal your Firebox didn't work out?)

Most people with a modicum of professionalism would say the Firebox isn't for them (and form subjective opinions ) based on personal observation.

The more you say you hate the Firebox, the more I think you're severely immature if you're even past the age of 18? I don't know, but you act and speak as if

Quote:
Originally Posted by KeithMoonwannabe View Post
And as to how you guys want me to stop criticizing the Firebox, I'm entitled to my opinion and while it works for people hell I made it work for me at one point and it was $300 a couple years ago (that should be a huge indicator of why it'd be stupid to buy one). Maybe you guys are unaware but technology changes and improves all the time.
You're entitled to your opinion.
But repeating it like a parrot doesn't really help does it?

I had no idea!
I thought technology remained stagnant for all time

Quote:
Originally Posted by KeithMoonwannabe View Post
I'm not afraid to be blunt and just come out and say you could spend your money much wiser because there are options that will work better for EVERYONE subjective opinion aside and that doesn't mean they have to be more expensive. I'm sorry I didn't feel it was that great when it came out nor do I still think it's that great
I don't know if you know this or not, but your gear isn't a representation of how awesome you think you are. My Firebox works, and it works well.
Too bad it "sucks" for you, I'm over it.
You've stated your opinion, leave it be.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KeithMoonwannabe View Post
Frankly pull your head out of the biased audio mag reviews and use your own damn ears to formulate subjective opinions like I do.

I'm posting my opinions and experience (over and over and over and over and over again) to help the original poster not to attack you guys ok? If they ask me which of those two are the better choice it's honestly NO CONTEST!
K. I own a firebox, I use it everyday.
It works very well. DEAL WITH IT, or just be quiet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KeithMoonwannabe View Post
Quit defending your purchase because if you honestly had experience with all these interfaces like I have you would know that I'm right instead of pointlessly arguing with me about something you read in a magazine or read in a forum by Joe Nobody.

Regardless of what's on paper I used the Firebox enough to know that it lacked in every area. Why bother purchasing one or keep one to use for any purpose if they sell for $150 used sell yours and buy something halfway decent by investing at most another $50-$150.
I don't think you know how to read posts, then reply to them, so
I'm pretty much done with you. I don't GAS how much your experience is with anything because your pompous, immature and self righteous tone just wreaks and saturates what was a simple discussion.

You just care about being "right."
You disregard OTHER people's opinions, yet YOUR opinions are much more
valid? STFU, really.


1.) Buy a dictionary
2.) Look up: humility and Tact.
Old 20th April 2010 | Show parent
  #43
Lives for gear
 
hello people's Avatar
I'm suspicious of anyone who uses the word 'yield' in day to day talk.

And also...there's way too much use of the two words 'price point' in this thread.

Anyway...the Firebox is a bit of a piece of junk...but it's been good for me at the different immediate stage levels I have been in since I got it when I couldn't even hope to have noticed any difference or quality aspect. It's converters are fine. They pretty much all are these days. I read that somewhere and I pretty much believe it.

My Firebox is working great for me as an adda and that's all I use it for...not including playing stuff back.
Old 20th April 2010 | Show parent
  #44
Gear Maniac
 
🎧 10 years
keithmoonwannabe is taking some low blows in here. heh

in my completely anti-professional opinion, i'd say that keithmoonwannabe is more clued in to what's going on with audio interfaces than the majority of guys around here. i've ran across quite a few of his posts on this subject while searching through the gs forums, and he seems to be generally well informed on this stuff. personally, i'd much rather read a straight up opinion (trash talk and all) than some ambiguous, smoothed over, go nowhere review. if no one ever talks about what they don't like about x piece of recording gear, why would the manufacturer be inclined to make any changes? and if one manufacturer pushes the bar up a bit, others will need to follow in order to compete. i don't see the downside of trash talking gear that genuinely deserves it *cough*....firebox.

on the conversion stuff, i have no opinion to share, as i've not spent any considerable amount of time a/b'ing converters. it's hard enough finding an interface that makes the grade in all other areas - straying a bit......the chances of a new comer to this stuff picking a decent interface on the first round aren't that high, especially when choosing from the entry level stuff. i'm not saying that you can't take a lemon *cough*....firebox and make some lemonade, but if you were wanting orange juice in the first place, well...

i agree with keithmoonwannabe about the firebox though. if it were $100, yea, maybe get it, but you'll be much better off saving a bit for something better.
Old 20th April 2010 | Show parent
  #45
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hello people's Avatar
The Beatles get their hands on that Firebox and record I Am the Walrus...still gonna be a great song. A single lemon won't make a bathtub full of orange juice sour.

Old 20th April 2010 | Show parent
  #46
Here for the gear
 
🎧 10 years
Hey Dr.Innovation, just because the firebox works for you doesn't mean that most other options aren't miles ahead. KeithMoonwannabe just pointed out that the other products are way better choices and you got all defensive just because this thing works for you. Nobody said that the firebox doesn't do a decent job, people just pointed out the flaws of the unit and mentioned better alternatives. You can tell him to get some tact (but who needs tact on the interwebs heh) and blame him for being prejudiced against presonus but in the end he is still right about the firebox being a bad choice with all the other options around.
Old 21st April 2010 | Show parent
  #47
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KeithMoonwannabe's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by hello people View Post
The Beatles get their hands on that Firebox and record I Am the Walrus...still gonna be a great song. A single lemon won't make a bathtub full of orange juice sour.

I completely agree that creative hands and a strong source will always trump the gear you use but why not strive to get the most accurate representation possible isn't that why most of you are here on gearslutz? IE why buy gear that could potentially be a weak link in your signal chain when you can spend the same amount of money on something much better? I'm not criticizing the Firebox because it doesn't work or it's incapable of producing good results I criticize it because there are better interfaces that will make getting better results much easier to yield.

Sorry that some of you can't swallow what I'm trying to say maybe a glass of water would help it go down fuuck

I mean you guys continue to argue with me yet you've shown NO COMPARITIVE EXAMPLES of a/b/c-ing devices aside from a highly credible magazine review that brand X probably paid them $$$ to publish (ie advertising).

You just tell me how your experience with one thing is. I've sold dozens of interfaces and I've owned and used several extensively. You can either take the advice of someone that actually knows and uses all the options (ME) or you can listen to some happy firebox user that's never used anything else on the market and is content using something I find inferior.

Yeah maybe it is a trivial argument, big deal, if it means so little to you and you want me to seriously STFU than why do you keep responding to me? My issue with posts like yours weren't expressing opinions it was that you were misleading people. If it's that great of a unit like you say then let it speak for itself in a real life shootout. Also if it's that great me talking about it's flaws shouldn't hurt it's reputation. So logically speaking why are you wasting your time on here if it doesn't matter to you if there are better/worse things out there? I mean really let people figure it out on there own you can see the flaws clearly on documented specs between the units. I mean I'm assuming since he wanted to know his options and wanted opinions on units that my response was appropriate. I gave the OP exactly what they wanted to know. Maybe they care about the quality a little more than you hence the reason they are researching before they buy something and end up disappointed.

I mean really in the around $175-$300 range I can think of a lot of really good brand new options, and when you really sit and think about it spending $300 on a recording interface is nothing compared to buying time in a studio to record or comparing it to say a modest microphone purchase. Most people buy SM57's and SM58's and they are $100 each. And by really good I mean good pres, good converters, decent and reliable hardware/drivers. These are the reason the Firebox is a piece of junk for it's class (it's a dated design that barely worked when it came out) and I would not compare the Firebox to the analog gear used on the Beatles. Part of the difference that people forget is the talent of the band and the talent of the engineers for the Beatles I think I can speak for everyone that's posted in this thread so far that none of us myself included will come close to accomplishing anything remotely in league with anything the Beatles did in their career musically or sonically. And frankly it's a tough argument to say what the Beatles would've done if the age of Pro Tools was around in their heyday. Who knows if they would've created the same magic or garnered the success they had. It was a different age and a different way of marketing music back then. Frankly I think the equipment and techniques used by the Beatles are superior in everyway to the Firebox but that's just my personal opinion, but it was a valant effort to try to defend it .

Echo Audiofire
Presonus Firestudio Mobile
Lexicon I ONIX
TC Electronic Konnekt
EMU 0404 USB
Focusrite Saffire Pro 24 or the new 6 USB

And to get back to all your childish personal attacks I think most people on here that actually know me as a poster know my age, what I do, etc etc. Frankly it has nothing to do with anything. Grow up. Clearly you can't handle rational debates. It's not like I was like the firebox sucks, I found where you lived, and threw a brick through your window cuz you said you liked it.

There goes another long winded post that you can all gawk at
Old 21st April 2010 | Show parent
  #48
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KeithMoonwannabe's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bootzilla View Post
Hey Dr.Innovation, just because the firebox works for you doesn't mean that most other options aren't miles ahead. KeithMoonwannabe just pointed out that the other products are way better choices and you got all defensive just because this thing works for you. Nobody said that the firebox doesn't do a decent job, people just pointed out the flaws of the unit and mentioned better alternatives. You can tell him to get some tact (but who needs tact on the interwebs heh) and blame him for being prejudiced against presonus but in the end he is still right about the firebox being a bad choice with all the other options around.
funny I even said I thought it was a decent unit as you said I just think there are better options available now and I'm not against PreSonus the new Firestudio Mobile looks nice, the StudioLive looks nice, The Central Station and Faderport are nice, Firestudio Tube is nice, and I tried the ADL600 a few times and was pretty impressed.

I like PreSonus I just don't like every damn product they've put out Inspire and Firebox being a couple of them. I have no problem being brutally honest I'm not the type of person to beat around the bush and pat your back while you are being reprimanded sorry.
Old 21st April 2010 | Show parent
  #49
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hello people's Avatar
You're getting no arguement from me keith

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