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Drum Mics (yes i know you don't like C1000s)
Old 22nd June 2009
  #1
Gear Nut
 

Drum Mics (yes i know you don't like C1000s)

Does anyone have any experience with the following setup:

  • 2x C1000s (spaced pair) - overheads (presence boost on or not?)
  • Rode NT5 - hi hat
  • SM57 - Snare Top
  • Rode NT55 (w/ 10 / 20 dB pad) - Snare Bottom
  • 2 x Sennheiser E604 - Toms
  • Rode NT2 (omni) - Room Mic
Also.. a couple of technique qus.

  • Snare top and bottom mics - should they point at the same spot, so that you know inverting the bottom's phase solves the phasing problem? or is it ok to point them toward different points on the snare?
  • In a small/medium sized room, should the room mic be near / facing the wall or not? (I'm using a room mic because I'm having the overheads pretty close to the kit.)
Thanks (no more C1000 jokes please)
Old 22nd June 2009
  #2
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doorknocker's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by alasdair View Post
Does anyone have any experience with the following setup:[LIST]
2x C1000s (spaced pair) - overheads (presence boost on or not?)
Only use the presence boost if your drummer is using cymbals made out of rubber.....

Oh sorry...heh...you said 'no C1000 jokes' but at least a joke is something that might cheer up somebody and 'cheerful' and 'C1000' are not words I see being used together much.

The C1000 is a very shrill and hard-sounding mic and I would advice against using it on OHs. The trick is to enhance the source with the right mic choice. A flabby-sounding tom might actually benefit from the C1000 and while it's always wise to make the source sound like you want it to sound, reality often is different and therefore any mic (even a C1000) has its place.

The best sound I ever got for a very soft sounding Guild acoustic was with a C1000, it worked because the guitar was lacking sparkle and bite and so that mic fixed that. Nedless to say that I sold the guitar eventually and in my defendence I have to say that the C1000 wasn't mine....

I'd rather use a pair of 57s or 58s as OHs. It certainly will be more workable than the C1000s.

Quote:
Originally Posted by alasdair View Post
Snare top and bottom mics - should they point at the same spot, so that you know inverting the bottom's phase solves the phasing problem? or is it ok to point them toward different points on the snare?
First I would check itf you really need a bottom snare mic. I almost never use one but if I do, it's more for musical than sonical reasons, meaning that I might want to bring up some ghost notes or enhance the sound of brushes, etc

Flip the phase and listen to the sound (preferably in one-speaker mono), most of the time flipping the phase WILL make it sound better but by all means listen in context of the whole kit and NOT just the two snare mics. Soloed drum sounds mean nothing, period.

Quote:
Originally Posted by alasdair View Post
In a small/medium sized room, should the room mic be near / facing the wall or not? (I'm using a room mic because I'm having the overheads pretty close to the kit.)
Totally depends on the room makeup (reflection/ceiling height/floor) and even more so upon your intention. In my rather small but good-sounding room (wood floor/stone-walls/damped ceiling) I almost always use a front-of-kick mic as 'room mic', setting it up in front of the kick at knee-height or lower (sometimes angled towards the floor) to capture the whole kit. Usually that mic is heavily compressesd and mixed just underneath the other tracks. There's gonna be tons of treble on this track no matter what you use so often I will low-pass quite heavily in the mic.

Listen to the mic with headphones and experiment with the position, again in context with the other mics, especially the OHs.
Old 22nd June 2009
  #3
Lives for gear
 

I usually mic like this:

Kel HM2D in front of kick
2 Kel HM1 as overhead
2 SM57 on snare
1 Peluso 2247 in front of kit
2 Kel HM7U room mics

And I really like the results, sounds big and roomy. Experiment with placement a lot, also regarding the snare. I always use a bottom snare mic, and turn it up pretty loud as well. Sometimes I flip the phase, sometimes I don't. I also route the mix buss to some character compressor, (1176, 33609, Distressor etc. depending on what sound I want) and compress the hell out of it. The resulting channel I mix with the natural channel, and that's all the compression I do most of the time. Sometimes I 'NY style' compress the snare as well, when it really needs to slam.
Old 22nd June 2009
  #4
Gear Nut
 

thanks for replies so far -

Quote:
First I would check itf you really need a bottom snare mic
That is a good point - I'm doing drums for metal / hardcore, so maybe too much of an under snare sound isnt what I'm going for anyway

The C1000s are the only overhead mics I have access to unfortunately, would they work ok at close proximity? rather than having them a few feet up?

Thanks
Old 22nd June 2009
  #5
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If the C1000's are all you have then that's all your going to be using.

Sure they'll work, but the pros here won't use them as a ''go to mic'' what you are doing should be fine to get a stereo image of the kit (i never really push overheads up TBH, otherwise it's all washed out and you lose everything with cymbal sustain)

As for the SM57 on the snare, wtf man? Are you crazy?

I joke.

Point them so that their line of sight crosses at the centre of the snare drum that way phasing isn't as big an issue, I rarely look for the snap out of the bottom snare unless the top is lacking it, sometimes that is the reality but I only use it as a backup and never push it up too far. Sometimes it just sounds like a half dead bee inside the snare

Flipping the phase is your choice, listen to the whole kit while you flip it, then decide whether to keep it.

Since your using those overheads and room mic on a metal setup I wouldn't push them up too far in the mix, you'll have bass and guitars as well as vocals for the kick and snare to punch through without the cymbals wishy washing everything away.
Old 22nd June 2009
  #6
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chrislpp View Post
If the C1000's are all you have then that's all your going to be using.
Actually.. I have ONE audio technica AT2020 which i could buy another of OR

A Rode NT1000 which i could buy a second of? are either of those going to be better for the task in hand, bearing in mind the overheads arent going to be pushed too much anyway?

Thanks very much chris, appreciated.
Old 22nd June 2009
  #7
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DaVogi's Avatar
why don't you take your NT5/NT55 (the only difference AFAIK pad and filter) as OH and use the C1000 for HH and snare-bottom?

and where's your kick-mic?

you could use your nt2 or at2020 for that... I doubt if an omni-room mic is a good choice in a very small room... so I guess you'll end up with an card-room/FOK mic anyways (so you could use there the at2020 too)
Old 22nd June 2009
  #8
Quote:
Originally Posted by alasdair View Post
Actually.. I have ONE audio technica AT2020 which i could buy another of OR

A Rode NT1000 which i could buy a second of? are either of those going to be better for the task in hand, bearing in mind the overheads arent going to be pushed too much anyway?

Thanks very much chris, appreciated.
A friend of mine recorded a real stripped down rock session with just a pair of AT2020s as overheads, along with a 57 on snare and a mic I can't remember in front of the kit. The drums sound great on that recording, but they were using API 3124 pres, so that's a big advantage.

That said, if it were me, I wouldn't buy a second of either of those mics. You have the two c1000s already, so just play around with positioning. Make sure the signal isn't distorting & make sure you're getting enough snare for all the cymbals you'll be getting. Chances are you'll wind up with something you can get by with. I'm sure there are plenty of recordings we all listen to and enjoy that had used c1000s as the OHs - they were pretty popular and were one of the first budget type condenser mics out for years.
Old 22nd June 2009
  #9
Gear Nut
 

or how about NT5s x2 as overheads?..
Old 22nd June 2009
  #10
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaVogi View Post
why don't you take your NT5/NT55 (the only difference AFAIK pad and filter) as OH and use the C1000 for HH and snare-bottom?

and where's your kick-mic?

you could use your nt2 or at2020 for that... I doubt if an omni-room mic is a good choice in a very small room... so I guess you'll end up with an card-room/FOK mic anyways (so you could use there the at2020 too)
Triggered Kick - I'll probably sample the actual kickdrum, but i always tend to trigger kick in this sort of style...

Also i can borrow another NT5 if i need to rather than any of the suggested combinations?
Old 22nd June 2009
  #11
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Gandy's Avatar
 

I can't understand why people dislike C1000s, I love them, favourite overhead mic, followed by NT5/55 and C451. I've currently got one C1000, hunting for another now (money issues).

I've always thought the C451 is suited to OH, so I'd say NT5 is a good choice for that. Where do you live, NT5s are the same price as C1000s here (£99).

I'd have said put a '57 on snare bottom (I like '58s for top), and I've never had a phase issue with any two mics on a snare. I like my top snare about half inch off about an inch in, pointing to center of bottom head (ish); bottom is normally about 6" in, about 2" away, pointing towards the edge of the top head, about a 30 degree angle.

Toms I find a '58 or '57 is nice, I've heard Audix D3s and they were pretty cool.

I have my overheads quite close to the cymbals due to room issues, and I don't have much if anything on axis or within two feet of the hihats, because mine are K Mastersounds, and are bloody loud. My left overhead is about a foot off, just above the edge of my 17" crash, pointed at the edge/the mid part of the ride. With more overheads I've had one for each cymbal and a couple proper overheads.

Hihats I'd recommend either an NT5 or C1000 (again, good results in my experience) pointed at the edge underneath.

No mention of a kick mic? Nice ol' D112 about 6-8" from 3" to the side of the attack point inside the drum (if you plan to mic).
Old 22nd June 2009
  #12
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That One Guy's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaVogi View Post
why don't you take your NT5/NT55 (the only difference AFAIK pad and filter) as OH and use the C1000 for HH and snare-bottom?

and where's your kick-mic?

you could use your nt2 or at2020 for that... I doubt if an omni-room mic is a good choice in a very small room... so I guess you'll end up with an card-room/FOK mic anyways (so you could use there the at2020 too)
I'd definately urge you to try the Rode's as OH's - having A/B both many times, the Rode's a big improvement. The only thing i've ever "liked" the C1000 for is hihat, and that harsh, bright C1000 might even complement the bottom snare... (also, it's common practice to put the top/bottom mic direvtly above/below one another, to help with phase issues - not a rule though!)
Also, i know it's metal and you're using a trigger, but if you have the tracks available, why not stick that 2020 in front of the kick - it can always be muted later if it doesn't work (it's better too have and not need, than need and not have!)
Hope this helps
Old 22nd June 2009
  #13
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by That One Guy View Post
I'd definately urge you to try the Rode's as OH's - having A/B both many times, the Rode's a big improvement. The only thing i've ever "liked" the C1000 for is hihat, and that harsh, bright C1000 might even complement the bottom snare... (also, it's common practice to put the top/bottom mic direvtly above/below one another, to help with phase issues - not a rule though!)
Also, i know it's metal and you're using a trigger, but if you have the tracks available, why not stick that 2020 in front of the kick - it can always be muted later if it doesn't work (it's better too have and not need, than need and not have!)
Hope this helps
Thanks!

I'm going to use NT5s for OHs then, but I only have 8 inputs, and want a room mic rather than the front of the kick.. as the OH mics will be quite close to the kit. does that sound valid? or bad idea for this style?
Old 22nd June 2009
  #14
Gear Nut
 

I'd like to go for a drum sound like this, thinking about it this doesnt have very much snare bottom in it at all from what i can tell..

Forever Never "Never Enough" on Vimeo

Does anyone else think that sounds really punchy?
Old 22nd June 2009
  #15
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Gandy's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by alasdair View Post
I'd like to go for a drum sound like this, thinking about it this doesnt have very much snare bottom in it at all from what i can tell..

Forever Never "Never Enough" on Vimeo

Does anyone else think that sounds really punchy?
Yes, because it's heavily compresses samples. The drums are most definitely triggered or sampled, classic metal sounds, classic metal song.

The snare is very compressed, it's probably got a good load of top, but there is a lot of bottom in there, or it would not be a snare, it'd be more of a punch, like the kick.
Old 22nd June 2009
  #16
Gear Nut
 

ah - they're a local band - and i congratulated them on the release, but i also asked if they used Drum replacement - at which point they didnt quite throw a hissy fit, but they said "NO ALL OF IT WAS REAL" and i thought to myself.. i swear there's some drum replacement going on there, on the kick was for sure, and i think the toms and snare too.

do people usually get touchy about production techniques like that?

lol
Old 23rd June 2009
  #17
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Boschen's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by alasdair View Post
  • Snare top and bottom mics - should they point at the same spot, so that you know inverting the bottom's phase solves the phasing problem? or is it ok to point them toward different points on the snare?
  • In a small/medium sized room, should the room mic be near / facing the wall or not? (I'm using a room mic because I'm having the overheads pretty close to the kit.)
Thanks (no more C1000 jokes please)


Try this for top and bottom mics on a snare:

Place the top snare mic where you usually put it. Put the bottom mic on, and flip its phase. Now try to place the mics to achieve maximum cancellation, then flip the phase back, and enjoy that massive snap and attack. Some folks like to keep the bottom mic flipped in polarity, too, so it's a subjective thing depending on the snare sound you're going for.
Old 23rd June 2009
  #18
Gear Maniac
 
Gandy's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by alasdair View Post
ah - they're a local band - and i congratulated them on the release, but i also asked if they used Drum replacement - at which point they didnt quite throw a hissy fit, but they said "NO ALL OF IT WAS REAL" and i thought to myself.. i swear there's some drum replacement going on there, on the kick was for sure, and i think the toms and snare too.

do people usually get touchy about production techniques like that?
Possibly, I suppose asking that's a bit like saying "Did the engineer use drum replacement to make your badly tuned crap sounding drums sound good and in time?". It might be they realised something like that in the studio and had to, so defend that they are not 'that bad' but let it let to them. Maybe they were just snappy, but there most definitely is kick and snare samples/in there, probably triggers were used, but there's definitely some/all quantization there as well... it's too perfect and in time.
Old 23rd June 2009
  #19
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Dr. Mordo's Avatar
 

I would certainly record the bottom of the snare just so you have it if you need it.

The c1000 'issue' has a lot to do with how you use the overheads. If you lean heavily on the OHs and just have a bit of close micing for presence, than the c1000s might not work so well because the sound will be too thin. But if you rely on the close mics and just use the OHs for cymbals, I would think the c1000s would be very nice.
Old 23rd June 2009
  #20
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gandy View Post
Possibly, I suppose asking that's a bit like saying "Did the engineer use drum replacement to make your badly tuned crap sounding drums sound good and in time?". It might be they realised something like that in the studio and had to, so defend that they are not 'that bad' but let it let to them. Maybe they were just snappy, but there most definitely is kick and snare samples/in there, probably triggers were used, but there's definitely some/all quantization there as well... it's too perfect and in time.
That's par for the course with that genre, is what it is. Along with cheesy video production...
Old 23rd June 2009
  #21
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Gandy's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by bentwookieesound View Post
That's par for the course with that genre, is what it is. Along with cheesy video production...
Yup, but true for most metal, sadly.
Old 23rd June 2009
  #22
Gear Addict
 

I have the original, Austrian-made gunmetal C1000 S, and I wouldn't consider it "a very shrill and hard-sounding mic". The new ones made in Poland may have been modified somehow to be brighter. I used it on drums once for the snare and thought it was fine.

It turned out to be a surprisingly good mic for baritone vocalists, but that's another story...
Old 23rd June 2009
  #23
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Jonesfromindia's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by alasdair View Post
or is it ok to point them toward different points on the snare?
ive been told many-a-time never to point them at each other. cus the phase issues you get are horrible.

but i live by the rule of recording, that there are no rules...
Old 25th June 2009
  #24
Gear Nut
 

thanks very much for all the tips and suggestions guys - I'm going to try this combination next week - I'll post a link to the results when it's ready too.

Thanks

Rode NT5 x2 - overheads
SM57 Snr Top
C1000 - snr bot
C1000 - hi hat
Rode NT2a - Room mic
e604 x 2 for toms
Old 22nd July 2009
  #25
Gear Nut
 

Sample of recorded drums + everything else

Hey, thanks everyone for the advice, this is what I came out with, still very much in the works though.

juststart09 0.001 chorus 1.mp3

Opinions welcome
Old 22nd July 2009
  #26
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Tom Hakala's Avatar
 

I had a drum tracking session last weekend. I just went there to help my friend mic the kit. Well I didn't bring my own gear. This was the setup:

OH (spaced pair): AKG C2000
BD: trigger
Toms: e604 and the floor tom was sm57
Ride: C1000
HH: SM58
Snare was Steve Jordan Yamaha custom snare. Nice sound. Top SM57, Side SM57 Bottom Sm58.

It sounded nice!

You just have to go what you have.
Old 22nd July 2009
  #27
Gear Nut
 

thanks! ah what i used for snare was a sample of my drummer's snare micd top side and bottom.

Top 57, side Rode NT2A, bottom Rode NT55

any criticisms or suggestsions for my track / drums in particular?

thanks
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