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Building a studio but what desk?? TAC Scorpion? Audio Interfaces
Old 17th May 2009
  #1
Gear Maniac
 

Building a studio but what desk?? TAC Scorpion?

Hi all,
As you can tell im a newbie.. dont hold it against me..

I am setting up a studio at the moment and have had lots of experience in a studio but very little engineering ..

i am looking at running
Mac g5 quad 2.5 with heaps of ram and HD
Logic pro 8
Motu 24i/o pci-e
but am totally stuck on the desk, i have around $3000au to spend at this stage and am looking for 24 tracks
i have founf a TAC scorpion but havent read many good things..
can anyone help me out???
i am planing on spending some cash on outboard pres at some stage and will have everything patched..

thanks.. oh im in Melbourne Australia so if anyone knows of something close let me know
Old 17th May 2009
  #2
Deleted User
Guest
Uh... Are you recording rap vocals or the next AC/DC record?

The fine people here need some bit more info from ya chief.

Mixing in the box, out of the box, or hybrid?

Tracking a full drum kit/band?... Or just overdubs and vocals?
Old 17th May 2009
  #3
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Beyersound's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Innocence View Post
Hi all,
As you can tell im a newbie.. dont hold it against me..

I am setting up a studio at the moment and have had lots of experience in a studio but very little engineering ..

i am looking at running
Mac g5 quad 2.5 with heaps of ram and HD
Logic pro 8
Motu 24i/o pci-e
but am totally stuck on the desk, i have around $3000au to spend at this stage and am looking for 24 tracks
i have founf a TAC scorpion but havent read many good things..
can anyone help me out???
i am planing on spending some cash on outboard pres at some stage and will have everything patched..

thanks.. oh im in Melbourne Australia so if anyone knows of something close let me know
TAC Scorpion bad..... marginal mic pres, horrid EQ, no HPFs! There are many better desks out there for that price. Soundcrafts, Oram/Soundtech/Trident, Midas, Toft, and many others will do a much better job.
Old 17th May 2009
  #4
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JoaT's Avatar
If you go with TAC scorpion, be sure to spend way less than 3000$. Au or not.
Old 17th May 2009
  #5
Here for the gear
 

You could get the Behringer one which is hella' cheap Idk about Conversion rates but a Yamaha or Mackie is what i'd go for.
Old 1st June 2009
  #6
Gear Maniac
 

Thanks for that, I think i am going to go for a D&R Dayner, 5K AU, have gotten pretty good feedback about it so far??
Old 1st June 2009
  #7
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thumper View Post
Uh... Are you recording rap vocals or the next AC/DC record?

The fine people here need some bit more info from ya chief.

Mixing in the box, out of the box, or hybrid?

Tracking a full drum kit/band?... Or just overdubs and vocals?

recording mainly rock muisc, full band recording and hybrid mixing... looking at a D&R Dayner 36ch for 5kAU???
Old 1st June 2009
  #8
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Innocence View Post
Thanks for that, I think i am going to go for a D&R Dayner, 5K AU, have gotten pretty good feedback about it so far??
The Dayner is a GREAT console. You can get really amazing results with it. The EQ is awesome, lots of good routing, the pres are fantastic! I own one/use it every day.
Best of luck!

DP



Reicher Recording - Home
Old 2nd June 2009
  #9
Here for the gear
 

I wouldnt bother with the Motu. If your convertors suck it wont matter what kind of desk you have. The best desk I ever had was an Allen and Heath Spectrum (similar to a Sabre). I sold it and bought a Soundtracs Topaz, then bought 2 Motu 2408 mkIIs. My sound died, and it was the Motus. Took me 4 years and around 7 different desks before I found that out.
Old 2nd June 2009
  #10
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Preamp View Post
The Dayner is a GREAT console. You can get really amazing results with it. The EQ is awesome, lots of good routing, the pres are fantastic! I own one/use it every day.
Best of luck!

DP



Reicher Recording - Home
CHeers for that, great to hear!!
Old 2nd June 2009
  #11
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by partimepunk View Post
I wouldnt bother with the Motu. If your convertors suck it wont matter what kind of desk you have. The best desk I ever had was an Allen and Heath Spectrum (similar to a Sabre). I sold it and bought a Soundtracs Topaz, then bought 2 Motu 2408 mkIIs. My sound died, and it was the Motus. Took me 4 years and around 7 different desks before I found that out.
really, i have been trying to find some feedback on the MOTU because it has been recomended by a few people but im not sure?? what would you go for?? I want something PCI based
Old 2nd June 2009
  #12
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sleeper1400's Avatar
 

im using a TAC scorpian II in my studio and its sounds great.

full routing, many options for groups, monitor outs etc....

pay less than 3k

and buy some contact cleaner, you'll need to clean the pots for sure.

but for the 8 hours of work you put in. the boards are good value, and built like a tank.
Old 2nd June 2009
  #13
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sleeper1400's Avatar
 

400!
Old 2nd June 2009
  #14
I don't get it... A newbie wanting to buy a full board? lol learn the basics first

Your best bet would be to intern first, learn how to engineer, and then buy something worthwhile.
Old 2nd June 2009
  #15
Gear Maniac
 
Jonesfromindia's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by chrislago View Post
I don't get it... A newbie wanting to buy a full board? lol learn the basics first

Your best bet would be to intern first, learn how to engineer, and then buy something worthwhile.
newbie at engineering doesnt mean he doesnt understand signal flow...

i like allen & heath myself. amoung other desks out there that are better, i like the way they sound, and ive never had problems with customer support. built in england, is always a plus for me.
Old 2nd June 2009
  #16
Gear Maniac
 
Jonesfromindia's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Innocence View Post
Hi all,

Mac g5 quad 2.5 with heaps of ram and HD
gainsaver.com they might ship over seas. get a better computer. that is already a paper weight with the way mac is going..

i picked up the 08 mac pro quad core for a steal form them. check it out.
Old 2nd June 2009
  #17
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by chrislago View Post
I don't get it... A newbie wanting to buy a full board? lol learn the basics first

Your best bet would be to intern first, learn how to engineer, and then buy something worthwhile.

yeah thanks for the advice, nice pic by the way.
Old 2nd June 2009
  #18
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonesfromindia View Post
gainsaver.com they might ship over seas. get a better computer. that is already a paper weight with the way mac is going..

i picked up the 08 mac pro quad core for a steal form them. check it out.

not an option at the moment unfortunatly, but thanks for the tip.. i wanted to get new mac but to get one here is about $4500 without a screen... way too much other stuff to buy first, will replace that late on.. the one i have should do what i need it too for now....I hope

thanks for the other advice on the desk too!! I think i am going to go with the D&R ??? good reports all round so far
Old 2nd June 2009
  #19
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by sleeper1400 View Post
im using a TAC scorpian II in my studio and its sounds great.

full routing, many options for groups, monitor outs etc....

pay less than 3k

and buy some contact cleaner, you'll need to clean the pots for sure.

but for the 8 hours of work you put in. the boards are good value, and built like a tank.

glad to hear someone likes em.. i think i have been scared off that desk now and i dont think the seller wants to go under 3k for it..but i am glad it is working well for you, i have heard a bit off stuff recorded through a scorpion and it sounded pretty good,, i think the D&R will do it for me..
thanks for your input!!
Old 2nd June 2009
  #20
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headwerkn's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonesfromindia View Post
gainsaver.com they might ship over seas. get a better computer. that is already a paper weight with the way mac is going..
My current ProTools rig is a PowerMac G4/400, runs 24-32 tracks perfectly fine. A quad G5 mightn't be Intel but it is no lightweight. Even more so if he's going to be running analog EQ, etc. on a real board.

Unless you're pedantic about "keeping up to date" and being "future proofed", I wouldn't worry about it. Audio workstations work better if you get them working reliably then never f**k with them again.

3,000 Australian pesos isn't much for an analog board, certainly based on the prices you see on Mixmasters. Mackie 24-8 and 32-8 go secondhand around AU$2K... people bitch about them but if they're in good condition they work perfectly fine for rock, etc. I found the Soundcraft 8 bus desks to be pretty good sounding too. Alternatively you can find something older, more esoteric and 'proper' (ie. modular) that needs some work, and deal with the cleaning and recapping, etc. yourself. Assuming of course you can handle a soldering iron.
Old 2nd June 2009
  #21
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headwerkn's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrislago View Post
I don't get it... A newbie wanting to buy a full board? lol learn the basics first
I learned the basics of audio engineering on a project-studio sized 8-buss analog mixer and an 8 track, reel to reel tape deck. Not only did it teach me signal flow, routing, patching, gain staging and noise floor management, it also taught me to make the most of limited processing options and how to mix without automation.

If anything, surely starting out with ProTools is diving headfirst into the deep end, before learning to swim?
Old 2nd June 2009
  #22
Gear Maniac
 

yeah cheers for that, i think my mac will do just fine with what i am using, be great to get a new one but$$$$ my desk budget has risen to around 5k now, i have a D&R dayner lined up, sound like it will be a great desk for me, i am a little un decided on my interface though..i was first thinking on a motu 24i/o, than a motu 192HD but im just not sure what to get, i want to get the best stuff i can to start with,, prob have 3k or so to spend on converters??
any ideas


Quote:
Originally Posted by headwerkn View Post
My current ProTools rig is a PowerMac G4/400, runs 24-32 tracks perfectly fine. A quad G5 mightn't be Intel but it is no lightweight. Even more so if he's going to be running analog EQ, etc. on a real board.

Unless you're pedantic about "keeping up to date" and being "future proofed", I wouldn't worry about it. Audio workstations work better if you get them working reliably then never f**k with them again.

3,000 Australian pesos isn't much for an analog board, certainly based on the prices you see on Mixmasters. Mackie 24-8 and 32-8 go secondhand around AU$2K... people bitch about them but if they're in good condition they work perfectly fine for rock, etc. I found the Soundcraft 8 bus desks to be pretty good sounding too. Alternatively you can find something older, more esoteric and 'proper' (ie. modular) that needs some work, and deal with the cleaning and recapping, etc. yourself. Assuming of course you can handle a soldering iron.
Old 2nd June 2009
  #23
Lives for gear
 
headwerkn's Avatar
no probs. The D&R for AU$5K sounds great... I'm wanting to get a "decent" "proper" console for around the cash... pickings are pretty slim in Australia.

A serious quality 24 i/o ADDA like an SSL AlphaLink with a MADI PCIe card will run a fair bit more than $3K... for affordable midrange stuff I've always been really happy with the Presonus Digimax FS, which I believe are considered to be a decent bit better than the MOTU converters... they run at about an Aussie grand each retail, add in either a 3-4 input ADAT PCIe card or something like the Presonus Firestudio Lightpipe... would be a pretty darn decent DAW/analog desk setup.
Old 2nd June 2009
  #24
RTR
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RTR's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by headwerkn View Post
I learned the basics of audio engineering on a project-studio sized 8-buss analog mixer and an 8 track, reel to reel tape deck. Not only did it teach me signal flow, routing, patching, gain staging and noise floor management, it also taught me to make the most of limited processing options and how to mix without automation.

If anything, surely starting out with ProTools is diving headfirst into the deep end, before learning to swim?
+1...learn fruity loops first like chris...no thanks...get the board and get to work!heh
Old 3rd June 2009
  #25
Gear Maniac
 
Jonesfromindia's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by headwerkn View Post
My current ProTools rig is a PowerMac G4/400, runs 24-32 tracks perfectly fine. A quad G5 mightn't be Intel but it is no lightweight. Even more so if he's going to be running analog EQ, etc. on a real board.

.
ya, but how much better would it run on a new processor. theres no debating on the newer processors, they are better, flat out. yes yours work, and so will that G5. but why waste money on old technology when for a little more you could have something newer.

obviously not in the OP's case. its like saying you use a VCR to watch movies cus the VHS tapes you have play nicely on your LCD screen, instead of buying a DVD player. meh, not really a close scenario. but just to get my point across.
Old 3rd June 2009
  #26
Gear Maniac
 
Jonesfromindia's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by RTR View Post
+1...learn fruity loops first like chris.h
thats when you get people posting on here, "how do i hook up a reverb on a behringer on the aux channel?"
Old 3rd June 2009
  #27
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headwerkn's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonesfromindia View Post
ya, but how much better would it run on a new processor. theres no debating on the newer processors, they are better, flat out. yes yours work, and so will that G5. but why waste money on old technology when for a little more you could have something newer.

obviously not in the OP's case. its like saying you use a VCR to watch movies cus the VHS tapes you have play nicely on your LCD screen, instead of buying a DVD player. meh, not really a close scenario. but just to get my point across.
"Better" is a dangerously subjective term. As processor speed goes up, so does the processing demand of software functions.

My G4 DAW uses a PCI-based Digi001 and runs on either 10.3.9 with PT6.4 or (shock, horror) Mac OS 9.1 with PT5.2.1! I actually planned on using OS9 figuring it would be faster than OSX but actually 10.3.9 is very lean and smooth and runs PT6.4 very nicely indeed. It is by far the most reliable computer based DAW I've owned. This unit runs alongside my Roland VS2400 recorder for when I need more than 24 tracks or the better editing tools that PT provides over the Roland's VGA UI.

I do rock, jazz and acoustic music. I work with acoustic audio sources... real guitars, real drums, real vocals, etc. I don't beat detect, I don't sample replace, and if I want to use a virtual instrument I'll run it on a separate computer running Logic and treat it as an "instrument". I'm trying to get away from using lots and lots of plugins and instead investing in good quality outboard and, of course, learning to use mics better to get the sound I want at the source. I try to capture performances, rather than create them.

Not everyone can or does work this way. I do this primarily as a hobby so commercial considerations have no impact on my workflow. If I could afford to I'd have a tape machine, nice big simple desk like a Neotek, a rack of good outboard and a real plate reverb. If what I could create with that didn't sound good, then it wouldn't be the equipment's fault.

It's all too easy to caught up in the endless update cycle of computer based technology, and it can have a really detrimental effect on making music if you're spending all your time getting your plugins to load properly or chasing down -478372 errors or any some such that is typically par for the course.

The other thing is that computer DAWs are very much engineering-focussed, rather than musician-focussed. I always found when trying to record my own stuff it was all too easy to get stuck in the engineer's headspace rather than concentrating on the music, which of course, is what I should have been doing.

Keeping things simple is important - sometimes you just need to arm a new track and press record.
Old 3rd June 2009
  #28
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by headwerkn View Post
"
The other thing is that computer DAWs are very much engineering-focussed, rather than musician-focussed. I always found when trying to record my own stuff it was all too easy to get stuck in the engineer's headspace rather than concentrating on the music, which of course, is what I should have been doing.

Keeping things simple is important - sometimes you just need to arm a new track and press record.
that is the way i am approching recording, i get the sounds i want with my instruments first, all i want to do is to capture that sound, be great to keep up to date with all the latest softwear but that just does'nt seem that important to me... anyway some of my fav records and bands sound pretty ****ty if you look at it from an engineers point of view but most people aint engineers and no matter how good your computer is if a song sucks it always will.. in saying that if i could afford all the best **** i would totally buy it!!
Old 4th June 2009
  #29
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Innocence View Post
yeah cheers for that, i think my mac will do just fine with what i am using, be great to get a new one but$$$$ my desk budget has risen to around 5k now, i have a D&R dayner lined up, sound like it will be a great desk for me, i am a little un decided on my interface though..i was first thinking on a motu 24i/o, than a motu 192HD but im just not sure what to get, i want to get the best stuff i can to start with,, prob have 3k or so to spend on converters??
any ideas
Ever hear of the echo audiofire 12? Very nice units, good, solid conversion. You can daisy chain them, and can get, i think, up to 36 channels per firewire bus. They are around $500us per unit, so you can have 36 channels in/out of good conversion for around $1500. INSANE!!!

DP



Reicher Recording - Home
Old 4th June 2009
  #30
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rty5150's Avatar
 

how many tracks do you HAVE to have? doing rock, with overdubs means around 16ish. i run 24 myself, so i can't blame you for it; but are you looking at external preamps, too? that may put you in a position where a console may be overkill. are you actually building a studio for full scale recording or is this a project studio?
i like ramsa boards which can be found for cheap and dig their pres, but i use outboard pres, too. i also own a soundworkshop 1280b for additional pres. mixing and matching pres for the project. are you going to be primarily ITB, or using the DAW as a tape machine and mixing through your console? this will determine the size of your console and the i/o needed from your converters.


rich
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