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Small Rooms Acoustics
Old 16th July 2002
  #1
Here for the gear
 

Small Rooms Acoustics

Hi Guys,

Today I purchased my first house! Big thing for me. I have a basement where I have some room to build a basement studio. I should have about 2,5 meters x 2,5 meters to build a live booth/room. The ceiling isn't very high (about 1,90 meters). I want to be able to record a simple drumkit in this room. Any tips on how to get nice acoustics? I don't want the room to be completely dead.

I would sure appreciate any tips you can give me!

All the best,

t-dog
Old 17th July 2002
  #2
There is only one
 
alphajerk's Avatar
 

whassa meter? need conversion, im too lazy to convert it myself.
Old 17th July 2002
  #3
High End Moderator
 
mwagener's Avatar
8.25 feet by 8.25 feet by 6.25 feet high, I think.
Old 17th July 2002
  #4
One with big hooves
 
Jay Kahrs's Avatar
Yeah, that's right. 3.3 feet in a meter if I recall correctly. That's small even for a vocal booth. Even if you could fit a kit in there I wouldn't want to record it. Just to give you an idea... one of the iso booths in my new studio is going to be 8'9" wide with one wall being 10' long and the other 11' with a ceiling height to be determined later, but at least 8', possibly 9'. It's bigger then your raw space (have to allow room for walls) and I still wouldn't want to squish a drummer in there.

Or did you screw up the dimensions you posted?
Old 17th July 2002
  #5
Lives for gear
 

T-dog,

That's pretty small for a drum kit. About the only thing you could do imo, is to put some heavy fiberglass (or buy foam bass traps) in all 4 of the corners, floor to ceiling. Put some foam on most of the ceiling, and most of three walls. On the fourth wall put something hard and irregular, like bricks at different depths, or a bookcase or something. All those things will take even more precious space away from the room, but it will be necessary in order to kill the room sound for recording.

You have to kill that room T-dog, because it's square, and any sound it can make on it's own will suck. Those bass modes will be hard to overcome. The fact that the ceiling is so low adds to your problem, and if the walls are all concrete, room compression will be a factor at even low volume, certainly with a drum kit. Just no place for all that sound to go.

Of coarse, you could always just leave it bare and thrash away. Who knows, maybe it will be big and interesting, with a nice comb filter edge to it.

Randy
Old 17th July 2002
  #6
There is only one
 
alphajerk's Avatar
 

thats what i though... man thats SMALL. the square proportions are definately going to screw with you.

does d guass come here? he records drums in something he calls the veal pin... so it IS possible.
Old 17th July 2002
  #7
Gear Nut
 
Crushed's Avatar
 

Recording in a Box?

I also record in a 10'X10'X10' box. One wall is covered by a bookcase filled with books, the other three are either bare, or contain the recording equipment. I'M CRAMPED. But, I make due.
Sucks though.

Old 17th July 2002
  #8
Here for the gear
 

Small

Hi guys,

I know it's (too) small, but it is all the room I have. Hell, right now I only have a space in the corner of my room at home., so I'm happy with every inch I get. The space I mentioned (8,25'x8,25') is not a room yet. But it is the surface I am able to use. The walls can be non-parallel. I just have to build them that way. So the walls can be made out of pretty much anything (whatever is best suited) The ceiling and floor are conreet, but I guess I can put in a floating floor of some kind (nothing too thick of course).

I doubt I will record drums there on a regular basis, but for demo work it would be nice to be able to do so. Most stuff will probably be vocals. If I need to do a good sounding drum recording I would definitly go to a larger studio.

Again, any tips would be much appreciated!

T-Dog
Old 17th July 2002
  #9
Gear Head
 

consider not having an iso booth at all. treat your complete space as well as you can and while recording live things, monitor on headphones. be sure to plan your room such that computers, power amps etc. (anything that makes noise) are as far away as possible from the space where you intend to record.

imho, as its customary to say

best,
jsiyer.
Old 17th July 2002
  #10
I agree

Mix up the surfaces, DONT go for foam / glass fiber - every where.

I bought 4 x RPG corner bass traps for my tiny overdub / drum booth. Perhaps if you use ceiling corners for bass traps you might get more floor space for mic & cymbal stands

Try a ceiling mount for an overhead mic stand like I have (I use a stereo mic but you could get a T-bar to mount 2 mic's - goose neck extension helps with positioning..

Also clip on mic's for toms (the Latin Percussion "LP Claw" is supposed to be good for this. That and Sen 604, 504 404 series mic's is supposed to be an ideal combo...

Main thing is: Try it FIRST and see how it sounds.. before you go crazy with acoustic treatments..

Is the house physically connected to another? How much do you have to be concerned with "sound proofing" as opposed to internal acoustic treatment?
Old 17th July 2002
  #11
Here for the gear
 

rooms

The house is connected to another house, although I am not sure if they have a basement as well. I'll ask the neighbors. I don't think SPL should be too much of a problem. I have some time (and money) to try some things, so I guess I'll do just that.

Have any of you had any experience with Auralex products?

T-Dog
Old 17th July 2002
  #12
Lives for gear
 

t-dog,

Jules has some great ideas, you should take his advice. BTW, that RPG corner bass trap he's talking about is relatively expensive, but it sucks low bass out of the room like a vacuum cleaner, WAY better than any Auralux foam trap thingy. I have a friend who has some of those in his iso, and he says they really work. The absorption below 80Hz. can (theoretically) approach 100% with that thing.
Old 17th July 2002
  #13
One with big hooves
 
Jay Kahrs's Avatar
Yes, I have some Auralex stuff in my studio. The foam and bass traps are good for sound treatment but won't soundproof much of anything. To soundproof you need mass. Things like thick walls, floated floors etc. which will make your small space even smaller. If the ceiling is just over 6 feet now I'd give up any thoughts of trying to float the floor. You'll lose at least 6" if done right and then you'll have a booth that no one can stand up in. Honestly, the closet at my studio is bigger.
Old 17th July 2002
  #14
You may end up with a studio that allows:

Mixing till 11pm - then onto headphones
MIDI work till 11pm - then onto headphones
loud gtrs, Acc gtr & Vocals until 'dinner time'
Drums, Amplified Bass - with prior arrangement with neighbors

Bass amps, kick & Snare will be almost impossible to stop getting through to the pillows of the next door neighbors...

Ideally you want a deaf, old & tolerant neighbor!

I recommend a 'slide together' (tongue & groove) wood floor mounted on R10 which is an odd thick black spongy underlay made from shredded car tires.

Make sure the floor doesn't connect with the walls - fill the little gaps with rubber or tiny Neoprene blocks (spread out, it's expensive)

At this point does anyone have any DIY studio build links?

dfegad studio builds

heh
Old 18th July 2002
  #15
Lives for gear
 
5down1up's Avatar
 

hey yall , maybe u can help me 2 on that topic .
my room ( kinda tiny one , too ... but ... u know how it is ) is loud as hell . if u set up a drum inside you go nuts . i am talking bout inside the room . it sounds like millions of reflections hitting your ear . same with vocals , its so undirect , ... i would like to deaden the room to get that direct tone . ive putted a carpet in , that helped a little bit . its cool without for ac guitars or percussion .
the walls are still untreated . whats the best paybale material to make this room work ??? --- it sounds ok , but its not my personal taste . i like a direct sound ... it needs to jump out of the speakers
thx
Old 30th July 2002
  #16
Kev
Gear Nut
 
Kev's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by Jules

At this point does anyone have any DIY studio build links?
I have some links on Group DIY but here are a few to go,

http://www.studiocovers.com/articles15.htm
http://studiotips.com/
http://www.aes.org/resources/www-lin...ex.cfm?page=13

and for a tube trap
http://ic.net/~jtgale/diy2.htm

SAE has some info worth a read.
http://www.saecollege.de/reference_material/index.html

Eddie Ciletti has a page for the budget concious.
http://www.tangible-technology.com/



POD and VDrums are quiet . heh
Old 1st August 2002
  #17
Jax
Lives for gear
 

e604's include clips

Quote:
Originally posted by Jules

Also clip on mic's for toms (the Latin Percussion "LP Claw" is supposed to be good for this. That and Sen 604, 504 404 series mic's is supposed to be an ideal combo...
Just hoping to prevent anyone from buying something they don't need because the Sennheiser e604 (504, etc., I believe these are basically all the same mic with minor cosmetic changes to the 604 and an 'e' for 'evolution series' added to the 604 name) comes with a rim attachment arm, slotted in 3 or 4 places for different rim depths. Also, they're rubber so the shock won't transmit into the mics as much.
Old 2nd August 2002
  #18
One with big hooves
 
Jay Kahrs's Avatar
The clips on those mics suck. If a drummer has RIMS or other isolation mounts of their kit you'll have to use a stand because they won't grab the drum and will fall off. Either that, ro you won't be able to get them in the right spot. Also, on smaller drums like a 10" tom the stock clip puts the mic about 1/3 of the way into the drum and it's just asking to be smacked by a stick.
Old 3rd August 2002
  #19
Steve Remote has some tips on filing down the clips on the senhieser range I think... He also favors that LP Claw thing... He does A LOT of recording with clip ons...

See if I can get him to comment...

Old 3rd August 2002
  #20
There is only one
 
alphajerk's Avatar
 

those claws are a PITA. i prefer the clips on the 604's myself. i have never had a problem but then again, i dont record pussy ass 10" toms fuuck and if they had one i most likely wouldnt spot mic it. besides, the 604's can take a whck harder than any other mic i have ever used.

come to think of it, i havent recorded a set bigger than a 4 piece in over 2 years now. the tom is usually supported by another snare stand and the floor is from the legs.
Old 3rd August 2002
  #21
So Alpha do you use clip on 604's most of the time for your toms?
Old 3rd August 2002
  #22
Super Moderator
 
Remoteness's Avatar
Cool

Quote:
Originally posted by Jules
Steve Remote has some tips on filing down the clips on the senhieser range I think... He also favors that LP Claw thing... He does A LOT of recording with clip ons...

See if I can get him to comment...

I use LP Claws in live recording but, I set them up a little different then most...

Let's say you have a 5 piece drum kit; kick, snare, 2 racks and a floor. I would mic the snare by mounting a Claw on rack one's bottom rim and aim it at the snare. I then will take the next Claw and mount it on rack two's bottom rim for the floor tom. The rack toms can be tricky but (you guessed it) mount the third Claw on rack one for rack two, et cetera, etc. This technique accomplishes a fair amount of isolation between each drum. I've also used ROWI clamps on stands or kick drum rim's. When someone has an issue about clamping anything to the drums I usually go with stands just to keep the vibe chillin'.

On another note...

My favorite tom mics are MD409's, KM140's, KM86's, MD421's, TLM103's

My favorite snare mics are SM57, MD431, KM140, KM84, TLM103.

My favorite overhead mics are R121's, M160's, M149's

My favorite kick mics are M88, RE20, MD421, U47FET.

What about you?
Old 3rd August 2002
  #23
Moderator emeritus
 

Quote:
Originally posted by Remoteness


On another note...

My favorite tom mics are MD409's, KM140's, KM86's, MD421's, TLM103's

My favorite snare mics are SM57, MD431, KM140, KM84, TLM103.

My favorite overhead mics are R121's, M160's, M149's

My favorite kick mics are M88, RE20, MD421, U47FET.

What about you?
Are these in order of preference?

I'd add the Earthworks cardioid as another option for snare (crispy, but a lot more isolation from the hat than a 57), Shure KSM44's or Neumann/Geffell UM-57's for overheads (The Shure is more transparent - the UM57 adds a certain obnoxious character that seems to work with rock drums), and the Beta 52 for a contemporary rock kick drum sound (inside the drum).

On another note, has anyone found a good use for the AKG D112? I know it's not on the kick...
Old 3rd August 2002
  #24
Super Moderator
 
Remoteness's Avatar
Cool

Quote:
Originally posted by Dave Martin


Are these in order of preference?



On another note, has anyone found a good use for the AKG D112? I know it's not on the kick...


My mic list is not in an order of preference. It's a list of the first mics I would grab, depending on the sound and/or style of the stuff I'm working on.

I like to try new things. If the band I'm working with has a rider to fill, I always try to go with their first choices, then make changes if necessary.

I don't think you can even use the D112 as a hammer.
But I've had hit or miss experience with the D12 on kick drums. Depending on the tone of the bass drum itself, I've loved it or hated it. But I like the D12 on trombones! grggt
Old 4th August 2002
  #25
Moderator emeritus
 

Quote:
Originally posted by Remoteness




My mic list is not in an order of preference. ...
I like to try new things.

I don't think you can even use the D112 as a hammer.
But I've had hit or miss experience with the D12 on kick drums. Depending on the tone of the bass drum itself, I've loved it or hated it. But I like the D12 on trombones! grggt
Agreed - You might also give the D12 a try on upright bass (most likely a gut string). It sometimes works great - not necessarily as well as an RCA ribbon, or even a U87, but with the right bass playing the right style of music, it's pretty cool.
Old 5th August 2002
  #26
I find D12's or D112's cool behind a combo amp phase reversed with frontal mic's or even on their own, pointing at the wooden top of a combo for a retro dirty "honk" slide sound

Old 5th August 2002
  #27
One with big hooves
 
Jay Kahrs's Avatar
I like the D112 on floor tom. If it doesn't go there it might find it's way to the bass amp. I'll use it for the kick drum on maybe 1 out of 50 kits.
Old 5th August 2002
  #28
Gear Head
 

Shure has a new clamp on universal mic clip that kills the LP Claw. And it works fine with RIMS, and can correctly position just about any mic, including a 421.

http://www.shure.com/accessories/a56d.asp
Old 28th September 2004
  #29
Lives for gear
 
C.Lambrechts's Avatar
 

...
Old 6th October 2004
  #30
Here for the gear
 
Luke V's Avatar
 

Try his link. Good Luck

http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/index.php
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