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Pro tools HD vs Mix 24 888 system Digital Converters
Old 19th August 2008
  #1
Pro tools HD vs Mix 24 888 system

i am wanting to get away from the 002 pro tools le set-up, and hd is way to much money now. i thought an old 888 with pro tools 6, i wonder what the latest version of pro tools is that can be used with the 888, and also if melodyne plugin works on that software?
Old 19th August 2008
  #2
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i still run a MIX TDM rig with 4 cards. its a KILLER rig. i mix mainly on my console...but still use a fair amount of ITB plugins.

as far as i know the last version of PT that you can run on the MIX TDM cards is 6.1 which can run under OSx. i still run my rig on OS 9...its SUPER stable.

if you do go for a mix system...i would suggest getting better converters than the 888's. i have a combination of apogee ad8000, crane song, and lavry.

i do NOT believe that you can run melodyne on a mix rig..i could be wrong.

the advantages that a mix rig gives you over an LE is ZERO latency for tracking. more tracks, and just a super solid system.

i have a digi 002 LE rig as well...and sometimes use it for mixing when i am TOTALLY in the box, as i love alot of the newer plugs (waves api, chandler, etc.) that i cannot run on my mix rig.

for tracking....my mix rig smokes any LE system in my opinion. no latency....easy to setup headphone mixes....and just SOLID. it can only do 44/48...however...so if you need to work at 96+...you are better off going LE or getting an HD rig if you want to stay in protools land.

good luck with it.

i see mix rigs ALL the time for CHEEEEEEEEEEAAAAAAPPPPP !!!

pick up a few apogee ad8000's and you got a killer rig.

best,

jchristopherhughes
Old 20th August 2008
  #3
Gear Maniac
 

forget pro tools and go with cubase... seriously you can do everything in cubase that you can do in protools and it can be sooooooo much cheaper. Get a nice Lynx set up or RME and pay half the price for the card and D/A A/D then it would cost for 1 pro tools HD card, and it will sound just as good if not better. All the plug ins that work with pro tools work with Cubase as well and I don't care what anyone says Cubase is just as "industry standard" as pro tools.
Old 20th August 2008
  #4
Lives for gear
 

if mainly working on a console im sure the differences are small but if ITB i think there would just be to many features that have been introduced since 6.1 that i wouldnt want to go with out. lack of DSP power and being restricted to such an old system where you couldnt run any RTAS could also be an issue

MIX didnt have delay compensation either, which for a TDM system is a bigger issue any plug-in will induce latency.

with some decent converters the hardware is perfectly fine if it suits your way of working.

i dont care how much cubase users want it to be so cubase is not an industry standard. however unless to have to exchange mixs with big studios its not an issue what you use, so just be happy with what you have chosen and let others make their choice. there is no R&D there and so there is nothing that can compete.
Old 20th August 2008
  #5
it seems that digidesign offers a hardware exchange program. you can go from a mix 24 tdm system to hd 1 for 4600 dollars about, with a hardware exchange. anybody know about this? that means you have to also buy an interface, like a 96 i/o for an additional 1600? plus a mac pro for 2700? wow! thats a ****load of cash. but wouldn't that be the way to go? is HD that much better than LE? my girl would kill me! heh
Old 20th August 2008
  #6
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you can also exchange your LE for HD hardware. with all the other i/o boxs around now 96 and 192 i/o are overpriced but there should be new interfaces coming out in about the next 6 months.

HD has alot of features that LE does not but if they are significant or not depends entirely on the work you need to do.

for a large studio the costs of HD arnt that great as its just like any other tool to do the job. but from the sounds of it you dont need that level of system, so what do you feel your current setup is missing?
Old 20th August 2008
  #7
Moderator
 
narcoman's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by grobichaud View Post
forget pro tools and go with cubase... seriously you can do everything in cubase that you can do in protools and it can be sooooooo much cheaper. Get a nice Lynx set up or RME and pay half the price for the card and D/A A/D then it would cost for 1 pro tools HD card, and it will sound just as good if not better. All the plug ins that work with pro tools work with Cubase as well and I don't care what anyone says Cubase is just as "industry standard" as pro tools.
Agree with the sentiment - go with what you can afford and go with something supported now.

Completely disagree with your "facts".

You CANNOT do everything in Cubase that you can in PT HD - the routing, despite having an overhaul, is still not great in Cubase. I would not want to track a four headphone set for a band in Cubase. I would compose in it! There are many facilities in the likes of PT HD, Sadie and a few others that you only realise you need once you're earning from more than "Jonny and the Poopheads" type bands. Cubase is good. So are (nearly) all of the DAWs. They are tools. Don't blame 'em.

Whether we like it or not, go into any professional studio (and by that I mean one that is making money and records/film tracks etc) and it WILL BE PT HD. It may have Radar too (mine does) - but it will undoubtedly, unarguably have PT HD. For better or worse, as crap or ace is it may be, PT HD is as near to an industry standard as is worth having - which of course it isn't.

If you want PT HD - go second hand PCI. Cheap as expensive chips. Otherwise - Cubase, Logic or (here's something I never thought I'd say) Reaper are good options.
Old 20th August 2008
  #8
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Sugarnutz's Avatar
The latest version of PT for Mix is 6.4.1 for both WinXP and OSX. RTAS plugins can be used with some limitations:

Can't be used on Auxes or Masters.

Must be used on audio tracks "Prior" to any TDM plugins in the signal chain.

PT Mix+ systems are cheap, $650 for a Core/Farm combo and the 6.4.1 software is only $35 from the Digistore. The 888/24 interfaces (not the best, but tons of good records done on these over the years) are about $350-$400 and 24 bit Adat Bridges are about the same. You can use an Adat Bridge to interface with more modern convertors or a digital console. I also think that Apogee still has a PT Mix card available for the Rosetta 800. For about $1800 you can get a Mix+ with two 888's which will give 64 tracks and 16 I/O which is comparable to the price of a new 003. YMMV
Old 13th November 2008
  #9
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rod7th's Avatar
 

Exclamation there is no way that you just said that!!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by grobichaud View Post
forget pro tools and go with cubase... seriously you can do everything in cubase that you can do in protools and it can be sooooooo much cheaper. Get a nice Lynx set up or RME and pay half the price for the card and D/A A/D then it would cost for 1 pro tools HD card, and it will sound just as good if not better. All the plug ins that work with pro tools work with Cubase as well and I don't care what anyone says Cubase is just as "industry standard" as pro tools.



what is wrong with you , if you dont have the experience of working with a system (in this case pro tools ) , do not attempt to talkig about it , since you
are killing the whole spirit of this blog which is to share EXPERIENCE about the thead in discussion.
you just comiteed social suicide.
Old 8th January 2009
  #10
Gear Head
 

PT HD rules

and cubase with an RME is just a notch more flexible but hardly any better than any products in the PT LE family

math lession

pro tools hd 48 bit mixer

cubase, PT LE, and logic are all 32 bit math

therefore

pro tools hd is supremely better

I just sold my rme fireface 400 after I became an HD3 owner
I will be keeping my pc rig but replacing it with a much more cost efficient Maudio pci based system

cubase sounds the exact playing back with a 192 audio card or the FF400

Plus Firewire has to many variables (ie the cable, the jacks at both ends, more power supplies in the mix etc)


it is currently a buyers market and if you can afford HD rig do it
Old 8th January 2009
  #11
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mundy View Post
PT HD rules

math lession

pro tools hd 48 bit mixer

cubase, PT LE, and logic are all 32 bit math

therefore

pro tools hd is supremely better
Lol...back to school with you mr condescending! time to learn the difference between fixed point and floating point, and thus why 32 bit FLOAT is comparable to 48 bit FIXED.
Old 13th January 2009
  #12
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s12512's Avatar
have a PT mix system. very stable. dont have to worry bout latency. and it sounds good. i have an adat bridge hooked to a digital console. also an 882/20. luv it!!thumbsup

i also have an le system just in case i need some new features but i never use it.
Old 13th January 2009
  #13
Motown legend
 
Bob Olhsson's Avatar
 

An le system using a current generation computer will run rings around the biggest mix systems in almost every respect other than the number of simultaneous channels you can record. The Intel dual and quad core CPUs have really changed everything.
Old 13th January 2009
  #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mixman499 View Post
as far as i know the last version of PT that you can run on the MIX TDM cards is 6.1 which can run under OSx. i still run my rig on OS 9...its SUPER stable.
I have a mix system too, highest version you can run with MIX systems is Pro Tools 6.4

Quote:
Originally Posted by mixman499 View Post
if you do go for a mix system...i would suggest getting better converters than the 888's. i have a combination of apogee ad8000, crane song, and lavry.
For a very low budget, 888's are ok ... but getting apogees is a very good idea.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mixman499 View Post
the advantages that a mix rig gives you over an LE is ZERO latency for tracking. more tracks, and just a super solid system.

i have a digi 002 LE rig as well...and sometimes use it for mixing when i am TOTALLY in the box, as i love alot of the newer plugs (waves api, chandler, etc.) that i cannot run on my mix rig.
Not true, I run Waves Diamonds, Waves API, Waves SSL plug-ins on my mix system without any problems and I can pile a **** load of them.
Old 13th January 2009
  #15
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PlugHead's Avatar
 

Been running a Mix/PT 5.1.3/OS9 system a lot of years. Rock solid.

Have a 002/R LE system as well to keep current.

The Mix system SMOKES my LE in virtually EVERY aspect (cept for native plugin count). I do virtually everything that needs completion on this system (hybrid mixing OTB) - I plan on keeping this system till either it or I die - whatever comes first... heh
Old 22nd January 2009
  #16
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Pro Tools Mix Systems

Latest version of Pro Tools Mix is 6.4.1cs4.
The latest OS it runs on is 10.3.9
The latest Mac it runs on is a G4 Dual 1.42gHz
You cannot run the melodyn plug (bummer) but you can run the stand alone app.
Sure, there is no Auto Delay Comp, just use the TimeAdjuster plug.
In Pro Tools Mix systems with the stereo mixer plug, the first 59 tracks are mixed at 48-bit resolution and the rest are 24-bit.
Old 11th February 2009
  #17
Gear Nut
 

Hello everybody!

Definitely relevant subject here!

But still, I have a couple extra questions. If anyone knows the truth please answer:

-What's the truth about Mix system summing bus resolution?? Is it 48 bits fixed? 32? 24?... I've red all kind of contradictive statements about it... some say it is 37 bits (!), other 48bits up to 32 tracks and then 24... Well very confusing and I was wondering if someone has found the truth and who gave the info???

-Also which one is cleaner: Mix or LE??

Thank you guys!!
Old 12th February 2009
  #18
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PlugHead's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brahamnesik View Post
Hello everybody!

Definitely relevant subject here!

But still, I have a couple extra questions. If anyone knows the truth please answer:

-What's the truth about Mix system summing bus resolution?? Is it 48 bits fixed? 32? 24?... I've red all kind of contradictive statements about it... some say it is 37 bits (!), other 48bits up to 32 tracks and then 24... Well very confusing and I was wondering if someone has found the truth and who gave the info???

-Also which one is cleaner: Mix or LE??

Thank you guys!!
I don't think you'll find a 'definitive' answer on what is cleaner etc., but - IIRC, a Mix system master buss was/is still 48 bit math (dithered to 24) - go here for white papers:
Technical Document Archive

http://akarchive.digidesign.com/supp...48BitMixer.pdf

http://akarchive.digidesign.com/supp...in_the_Box.pdf

Still using mine daily - I print stems and/or stereo OTB, and still prefer it to LE (7.4.2/002R) FWIW...
Old 12th February 2009
  #19
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I think your decision should be between a used HD system and a new 003. And you should base that decision on money, and whether or not the limitations of LE are important to your work. The 003 is a lot better than the 002.

The 888's sound pretty horrible, unless you are using the Apogee converters.

Cubase may be fine, but anyone who thinks it is an industry standard doesn't work in the industry, and/or doesn't know the definition of industry standard.
Old 13th February 2009
  #20
Gear Nut
 

Thanks for the input. This makes sense. I have Lynx converters I could use with a Mix system thourgh AES and s/pdif on LE.

Maybe the bus resolution thing is just geek stuff... I guess if the difference is not audible then it's not worth the trouble dealing with it.

Have you ever felt that the Mix bus resolution or the LE one could hurt your mixes in any way??
Old 13th February 2009
  #21
Ngr
Gear Maniac
 
Ngr's Avatar
 

just to point out that I am running a Mix system on a dual 2.5 GHz G5...
it performs smoothly and I had no issues til now. If you're on a tight budget a mix system is a very affordable and solid way to go.
Old 13th February 2009
  #22
Gear Nut
 

Sounds great. Is it tricky to make it work on a G5??
Old 14th February 2009
  #23
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I don't know which system's "math" sounds better. I don't understand the concept of doing mathematical equations to find out what sounds good. That's what your ears are for.
Old 14th February 2009
  #24
Gear Nut
 

I agree. But some people claim that the Mix system bus sound thin when you sum more than 32 tracks. So, maybe the math could explain things when people disagree...
Old 14th February 2009
  #25
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jchadstopherhuez's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Louie View Post

Not true, I run Waves Diamonds, Waves API, Waves SSL plug-ins on my mix system without any problems and I can pile a **** load of them.
well..its true for MY mix system... i am assuming you have a faster computer...my mix rig still runs on a super solid g4 tower. its a near flawless rig for tracking...16 ch i/o apogee ad8000 converters...never crashes. so...it works for me.

i realize that if i had osx installed and upgraded to 6.4.1 protools...i could run some of the newer plugs. there are a fair amount of plugins that i personally use, that as far as i know...i cannot run on my rig.

i stand by opinion that in my world...a LE system just does not work for me in a tracking situation. i would be happier on a mix system. however...i do like mixing in protools le on my quad core mac intel machine...works great.

cheers,

jchristopherhughes
Old 14th February 2009
  #26
Gear Nut
 

Yes, Mix is perfect for tracking... I guess you haven't notice any difference in terms of sound quality between MIX and LE while mixing, right?
Old 14th February 2009
  #27
Ngr
Gear Maniac
 
Ngr's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brahamnesik View Post
Sounds great. Is it tricky to make it work on a G5??
no, as long as you have a PCI-X slot equipped G5.
There are a few G5 with PCI-X, and you can get them at a fair price. Last PCI-X was a dual 2.7 GHz G5. Check Mactracker for exact specs.
Old 14th February 2009
  #28
Moderator
 
narcoman's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by PlugHead View Post
I don't think you'll find a 'definitive' answer on what is cleaner etc., but - IIRC, a Mix system master buss was/is still 48 bit math (dithered to 24) - go here for white papers:
Technical Document Archive

http://akarchive.digidesign.com/supp...48BitMixer.pdf

http://akarchive.digidesign.com/supp...in_the_Box.pdf

Still using mine daily - I print stems and/or stereo OTB, and still prefer it to LE (7.4.2/002R) FWIW...

yup - 48bit fixed point.And now - actually 56 bit these days!!
Old 14th February 2009
  #29
Gear Nut
 

Ok thanks.

Narcoman are you talking about MIX or HD system?
Old 14th February 2009
  #30
Here for the gear
 

Hi Brahamnesik, you asked where I got my information regarding the mix bus. I received that information from Stan Cotey of Digidesign who also wrote one of their white papers. Yes, Mix Systems really are 48-bit fixed. LE systems are 32-bit floating point.

I wonder if anybody has ever bounced a mix in a MIX system or HD system, then opened the same exact session in an LE system, bounced it, and A/B'd the two. That would be interesting to hear!
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