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Bright monitors & dull mixes Studio Monitors
Old 31st January 2003
  #31
Jax
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Hmm.. the little LSR's must be quite different beasties than the biggies. The 28's can be a little bright.
Old 31st January 2003
  #32
Quote:
Originally posted by Jax
Hmm.. the little LSR's must be quite different beasties than the biggies. The 28's can be a little bright.
I have the dipswitch set to attenuate above 2.2k.
Old 1st February 2003
  #33
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blackcatdigi's Avatar
Quote:
Originally posted by Jay Kahrs
But, if I was going to grab a new set of nearfields I'd probably want to keep it to about $1000-$1500. What are some reverse smile curve monitors or stuff with a dull top? I know the Tannoy System 600's are in that catagory, what else is out there?
I'd recommend you listen to some 600s before buying. They are (IME) likely NOT what you're seeking. My NFM6s (same components, different enclosure) are rather 'bright' and have no real bottom.

(Some hate them), but try some KRK 6/7ks as they're worth practically nothing used these days. NOT the V series stuff, the older 'Thousand' series.

Also, something with a ribbon tweeter could help. We're using SLS S8Rs, but lots of folks hate these as well (mostly due to the 120h/40v dispersion) which is WHY we're using them (no console reflection/spill). They're in your price range.

The easiest and cheapest would be to just EQ the 2bus at mix if you always need the same tweak!

Good Luck
Old 6th February 2003
  #34
mml
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Well, normally I'd say get some Blue Skys. I love mine, but they're a tad bright, so that wouldn't work here. I'd suggest looking into some audiofile home speakers. I've got B&Ws at home and they're great and more flat in the top than the Blue Skys, but I didn't spring for the expensive ones because I've got a 5.1 system at home to pay for!

Anyway, look into them. They start off pretty cheap ($300 a pair) and go up from there, But they're passive, and I'd look into getting a new amp with them that matches well. Or, just try out some amps with your existing speakers. Most of the hifi places have one day trial with a credit card. Rotel, Parasound, Carver all make reasonably priced amps, and if you find one you like, you can probably find it used in good condition thanks to the audiofile market/upgrade path.

http://www.bwspeakers.com

While at the shop you may find something else that fits your needs better. Why more people don't look for monitors at hifi places is beyond me. Even some old JBLs might be cool. I can't remember the model number, but they're the old standard white coned 12" three ways that they made all through the seventies and into the late eighties. They've got adjustment for the high end on em too, and you could probably find some for cheap.

As for Powered stuff, the JBL LSR25s are pretty dull up top, but just lifeless to my ears in a boring, clinical way in the mids and highs. They might work for what you want them for though.
Old 6th February 2003
  #35
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Roland's Avatar
It is common speaker design wisdom that paper cones exhibit better resonant behaviour for Bass drivers than plastics or other materials.

Have you thought about trying a pair of PMC LB1's? These are a small truncated transmission line design. They have very good components (Dynaudio drivers) and are very smooth in the top end.

I find many speakers available have hyped top end, I think this is probably to do with giving the listener the "wow" factor. Really accurate speakers are not normally the nicest to listen too!

Regards

Roland
Old 7th February 2003
  #36
Quote:
Originally posted by Roland
It is common speaker design wisdom that paper cones exhibit better resonant behaviour for Bass drivers than plastics or other materials.

Have you thought about trying a pair of PMC LB1's? These are a small truncated transmission line design. They have very good components (Dynaudio drivers) and are very smooth in the top end.

I find many speakers available have hyped top end, I think this is probably to do with giving the listener the "wow" factor. Really accurate speakers are not normally the nicest to listen too!

Regards

Roland
Hey Roland,

So you think that the Dynaudio drivers are good components huh?
I think they contribute alot to the sound of the "smiley face"type speakers.

Do you know if its a VIFA tweeter by chance?(ala Eggleston,Sonus Faber) or the regular one?
Old 7th February 2003
  #37
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Roland's Avatar
No, the tweeters are dynaudio units too. Fairley neutral presentation, if a little soft in the top, but its a fabric dome unit. Most of the smiley face sound comes from cabinet and crossover design more over than the units themselves. Smiley face response curves sound impressive to listen too almost irrespective of the kind of music you are playing. I really believe that most manufacturers aim for this kind of "hi-fi" sound, you can't blame them they are interested in selling the greatest number of product. Making really accurate "flat response" speakers is both hard work and likely to show up the smallest discrepancies.

Somebody commented on the Meyers, and I would agree that they have made some truly awful speakers, but John Meyer is a very clever speaker designer and when he gets it right he gets it very right X10's and HD1's are good examples both at a significant price point though!

As for the vifa's, I have never been a fan. heard two many of them in various designs and never rated them. Typically they are used in the ATC SCM50's and 100's.

Buying fairly good speakers these days isn't too difficult, buying great ones is near impossible.

Regards


Roland
Old 7th February 2003
  #38
Quote:
Originally posted by Roland
No, the tweeters are dynaudio units too. Fairley neutral presentation, if a little soft in the top, but its a fabric dome unit. Most of the smiley face sound comes from cabinet and crossover design more over than the units themselves. Smiley face response curves sound impressive to listen too almost irrespective of the kind of music you are playing. I really believe that most manufacturers aim for this kind of "hi-fi" sound, you can't blame them they are interested in selling the greatest number of product. Making really accurate "flat response" speakers is both hard work and likely to show up the smallest discrepancies.

Somebody commented on the Meyers, and I would agree that they have made some truly awful speakers, but John Meyer is a very clever speaker designer and when he gets it right he gets it very right X10's and HD1's are good examples both at a significant price point though!

As for the vifa's, I have never been a fan. heard two many of them in various designs and never rated them. Typically they are used in the ATC SCM50's and 100's.

Buying fairly good speakers these days isn't too difficult, buying great ones is near impossible.

Regards


Roland
Then it maybe an Esotar tweeter.

The Meyer comment was from me. I felt in the past, that the HD1 was one of the most overated powered monitors of its time.

Its just an opinion, I also like the ATC midrange. I had a pair of SCM20's and I did like the SCM50.

Right now my main mixing speaker among the choices i have (Quested,Tannoy,Yamaha) is a pair of Dunlavy SM1 studio monitors.
Old 7th February 2003
  #39
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Roland's Avatar
Quote:
Originally posted by thethrillfactor
Then it maybe an Esotar tweeter.

The Meyer comment was from me. I felt in the past, that the HD1 was one of the most overated powered monitors of its time.

Its just an opinion, I also like the ATC midrange. I had a pair of SCM20's and I did like the SCM50.

Right now my main mixing speaker among the choices i have (Quested,Tannoy,Yamaha) is a pair of Dunlavy SM1 studio monitors.
Maybe, the esotar's I thought were really expensive, top of the range sells at about £250 each as I remember.

I love the ATC mid drivers really smooth, further to that I prefer the ATC SCM50's to the 100's the latter sound a little muddy to my ears, never did get on with the SCM20A's (sorry not had much time with the passive version) the mid is too far forward.

Like some of the questeds, but that very much depends on the set up. Was in one studio where they sounded truly awful and it was purely an alignment problem on the crossover (I think Roger uses ATC mids in some of his designs).

Not sure about your experiences with the HD1's, I heard them at a show and they were truely remarkable, bought a secondhand pair last year and sent them back. The soft domes had been crushed and they were very obviously out of alignment. The X10 is a different beast! at around £15,000 each speaker though it should be, very clever design though.

Regards


Roland
Old 7th February 2003
  #40
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jules
I have always found when mastering my material over the years, the pliars need to come out to crank the HF up.

I dont seem to want to hear all the HF during tracking & overdubbing...

I use ADAMS - flat.

Which is exactly why I've used the same very non-hyped monitors for 15 years.

It's all about referencing what you know to be great sounding material in this room on these monitors. Which exact monitors is much less important than how well you know them in a given setting.

Assuming that to be true, then deciding to go with rounder monitors yields good benefit. I can work all day, every day as many hours as I like without fatigue, assuming reasonably moderate levels. I get none of that burned out, edgy feeling built up over time by sizzling speakers. My hearing at age 46 is still fairly impeccable.

All in all, picking a less hyped monitor is all plusses except for one thing. Impressing the clients. Up front, I tell clients that I record and mix on very unexciting monitors, but that it makes me work harder to get off on the sounds and the end result is being pleasantly surprised when listening on other monitors, instead of the other way round.

For tracking and hype I have a set of JBLs as well. Got to go there sometimes. But for day in day out working, give me zero hype and easy on the ears.

Personally, I think the super-fi Genelecs, etc have hurt us more than they've helped us as an industry. I hear too many undefined sounding records, due I believe, to overhyped speakers fooling people into false security while they're working on them.


Regards,
Brian T
Old 7th February 2003
  #41
Quote:
Originally posted by BrianT
Which is exactly why I've used the same very non-hyped monitors for 15 years.

It's all about referencing what you know to be great sounding material in this room on these monitors. Which exact monitors is much less important than how well you know them in a given setting.

Assuming that to be true, then deciding to go with rounder monitors yields good benefit. I can work all day, every day as many hours as I like without fatigue, assuming reasonably moderate levels. I get none of that burned out, edgy feeling built up over time by sizzling speakers. My hearing at age 46 is still fairly impeccable.

All in all, picking a less hyped monitor is all plusses except for one thing. Impressing the clients. Up front, I tell clients that I record and mix on very unexciting monitors, but that it makes me work harder to get off on the sounds and the end result is being pleasantly surprised when listening on other monitors, instead of the other way round.

For tracking and hype I have a set of JBLs as well. Got to go there sometimes. But for day in day out working, give me zero hype and easy on the ears.

Personally, I think the super-fi Genelecs, etc have hurt us more than they've helped us as an industry. I hear too many undefined sounding records, due I believe, to overhyped speakers fooling people into false security while they're working on them.


Regards,
Brian T
Old 7th February 2003
  #42
Quote:
Originally posted by BrianT
Which is exactly why I've used the same very non-hyped monitors for 15 years.

It's all about referencing what you know to be great sounding material in this room on these monitors. Which exact monitors is much less important than how well you know them in a given setting.

Assuming that to be true, then deciding to go with rounder monitors yields good benefit. I can work all day, every day as many hours as I like without fatigue, assuming reasonably moderate levels. I get none of that burned out, edgy feeling built up over time by sizzling speakers. My hearing at age 46 is still fairly impeccable.

All in all, picking a less hyped monitor is all plusses except for one thing. Impressing the clients. Up front, I tell clients that I record and mix on very unexciting monitors, but that it makes me work harder to get off on the sounds and the end result is being pleasantly surprised when listening on other monitors, instead of the other way round.

For tracking and hype I have a set of JBLs as well. Got to go there sometimes. But for day in day out working, give me zero hype and easy on the ears.

Personally, I think the super-fi Genelecs, etc have hurt us more than they've helped us as an industry. I hear too many undefined sounding records, due I believe, to overhyped speakers fooling people into false security while they're working on them.


Regards,
Brian T
Hey Brian,

I am right on with you when it comes to the speaker room interaction being most important(and being familiar with its tendencies).

I do disagree with one thing, I think the problem with undefined sounding records is the under developed midrange. I think that is for 4 reasons:

1)Even though digital tracks have been around with us for a while, i think peolple still don't know how to really use its strengths. Most guys focus on the bass and high definition, that is because with a flat midrange(especially in digital recordings) our ears tend to filter out less of the midrange(which they do naturally) and they become more sensitive to the highs and bass. Its the smiley face thing again. More and more engineers start obsessing on how to get more bass and dare i say the word..."warmth"!!!(There I said it!!)heh

Instead if they focused more on defining the midrange, they would have better sounding mixes.

2)I think a lot mixing situations suck. What i mean is their speaker setups. I frequent a lot of studios here in the city(as a freelancer) and I am shocked for what some of these studios are charging they have the worst monitoring situations.

3)People just don't know how to mix or they are just not born with the talent. I think this part is never stressed or talked about on the forums, but I will always state it that mixing is a much artistic as it is technical. It takes a lot of talent to do both. Some guys do it better than others. Some guys are destined to be good and others are destined for greatness. Just because you think you have the desire and the know how doesn't mean that you have the talent. Its plain and simple.

There are guys out there that just shouldn't be mixing records. They would be better off to just let others do the work, but the pride and the money gets in the way. I know this may anger some people but i believe its true.

4)Production is key to a well defined midrange- an excellent production and arrangement I feel is balanced frequeny wise through out the range(key ranges,interaction between chords and harmonies,excellent bass support,right instrumentation,melodic focus etc).

I have noticed over time that some of my favorite sounding records have all of these elements. I have also noticed that alot of the newer stuff is very lacking and down right annoying.

Again just my opinion.
Old 13th February 2003
  #43
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pounce's Avatar
 

fwiw, i had and hated the tannoys. (the 6.5's that is. i understand their high end stuff is better). i didn't own , but do not trust a samson amp. we have two at my work for little paging type pa systems. that's about all i'd do with them.

i switched to a hafler amp and a pair of dynaudio monitors as mains, with ns10's and the second reference. i have not looked back. not to dog that tannoy choice, but i simply couldn't get mixes that translated with the tannoys, but i can now with the dynaudio's. the real treat is my system is very reasonably priced and performs respectably. highly recommended.
Old 13th February 2003
  #44
One with big hooves
 
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I think what's really kind of amazing when you stop to think about it, is that we as AE's spend thousands of dollars on monitors to make sure our mixes translate well to a $49 radio and CD player. It's kinda funny when you think about it. At the moment I'm trying to find a B&W dealer in northern or even central NJ. If anyone knows one that would be great.

FWIW, the only translation thing that's off on the Tannoy's is the top end. I've started to get used to the fact that I need to make things brighter then I want and can stand but whatever. Maybe I'll stick TP over the tweeters. Anyone got a favorite brand? I was thinking Marcal...
Old 13th February 2003
  #45
mml
Gear Addict
 
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Dealers

This might help:

http://www.bwspeakers.com/index.cfm?...roducts.dealer

It's a dealer locator, by State and City, but I don't know enough about Jersey to input a city.
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