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Firepod/FP10 vs Firestudio Project
Old 15th October 2007 | Show parent
  #31
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vcovco's Avatar
 

Thanks for clarifying, Rick.

Yep. I'm trying out the FS project. As I mentioned...it sounds fantastic. very quiet...loads of headroom, and the pre's are killer. Very inspirational piece of gear and I really think Presonus is a great company. The fact that you are actively involved on these boards is further proof of that, and I thank you.

My concern is the CPU spiking I am seeing as it had appeared for (according to posts on the presonus boards) almost a year on the firestudio 2626's and now I'm seeing it on the project. I am told Presonus is working on it, but don't know if the fix will arrive before my 'grace period' is up for returning the unit, and does the fix totally fix it or just diminish the spiking...blah blah blah (especially if the issue has been going on for so long on the original firestudio...that is a long time to wait for a fix.)

Believe me...not trying to flame or otherwise. Just throwing stuff out there that I am experiencing so that others searching for gear or answers can conclude for themselves.

Is it safe to say that the fixed FS Project drivers will be out within a month?
Old 15th October 2007 | Show parent
  #32
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First of all, the problems with Sonar that we had with the Firestudio2626 have been completely resolved with the v.3 drivers that we are shipping now with the Project. The CPU Spiking on the FS2626 is also a completely unrelated issue to the problems we corrected with Sonar on the new v.3 driver.

The CPU Spiking on both drivers is almost entirely 'ghost spiking' that occurs because the the CPU meter scans the driver at a rate different than it's own processing rate. This creates aliasing which causes a visual spike but in no way impacts performance. That is why you see spikes however, they don't produce any other indications of CPU drain, i.e. pops and clicks, distortion, etc.. Unfortunately it's really more of a visual annoyance than anything.

TC, the makers of the Dice2 chip, tell us that the next version of the v3 driver will have improved performance for older Power Mac processors. Currently the driver has the most problems with that particular type of computer.

However, if you are on an Intel Mac or PC, there are no known issues with the actual streaming.
Old 16th October 2007 | Show parent
  #33
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Acoustic Cloud's Avatar
 

I have always thought the cpu meters in all the versions of Sonar that I have used, are not accurate at all. I guess Rick just proved that!thumbsup
Old 16th October 2007 | Show parent
  #34
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Ok...understood on the Sonar side. Thanks for that.

I was referring to spikes in the CPU meter in Windows Task Mgr. and Sysinternals (now Microsoft) process explorer with no other programs open, but similar thing to cpu meters in cubase+sonar. I also ran tests using windows performance monitor (START>RUN>PERFMON) to make sure I wasn't just smoking crack.

In Windows perfmon, the %dpc time counter spikes in conjunction with %cpu time; i.e., the processor is spending excessive time servicing dpc's (deferred procedure calls) generated by the firestudio driver with regard to interrupt requests, etc. Real world performance effects can be argued, but there are definite issues with the driver to cause very noticeable differences in %dpc time while at an idle...

It is definitely not my intent to turn this into a hyper-scientific thread or heated debate, so last things I would ask:

1) Can we expect a driver update within a month
2) Will the driver eradicate these questionable cpu spikes

Sincere Thanks and Greatly appreciated!
Old 16th October 2007 | Show parent
  #35
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drummin4christ's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by vcovco View Post
Ok...understood on the Sonar side. Thanks for that.

I was referring to spikes in the CPU meter in Windows Task Mgr. and Sysinternals (now Microsoft) process explorer with no other programs open, but similar thing to cpu meters in cubase+sonar. I also ran tests using windows performance monitor (START>RUN>PERFMON) to make sure I wasn't just smoking crack.

In Windows perfmon, the %dpc time counter spikes in conjunction with %cpu time; i.e., the processor is spending excessive time servicing dpc's (deferred procedure calls) generated by the firestudio driver with regard to interrupt requests, etc. Real world performance effects can be argued, but there are definite issues with the driver to cause very noticeable differences in %dpc time while at an idle...

It is definitely not my intent to turn this into a hyper-scientific thread or heated debate, so last things I would ask:

1) Can we expect a driver update within a month
2) Will the driver eradicate these questionable cpu spikes

Sincere Thanks and Greatly appreciated!
Hello,

I understand your concern and I believe it is justified. However, I was one of the beta testers for this unit and I must say that these drivers are solid. We have been using the unit for the last few months and have been on this driver for the last month.

Honestly, I never look at the cpu meter unless I'm hearing pops and clicks while recording. With this unit and driver, I have never had to look at that meter because recording with this unit has been smooth and clean. I think it runs much smoother than my Firestudio and it sounds better because of the new converters. This is a solid unit!!!

I hope this helps.
Old 16th October 2007 | Show parent
  #36
Here for the gear
 

Do any of you guys know anything about the alesis multimix. I was looking a the specs on them and from that they seem pretty great. 16ch interface with usb 2.0, and the capabilities to run live sound. I guess the fact that its only $350 scares me compared to most purely dedicated interfaces that are much more.
thanks
-Yisrael
Old 16th October 2007 | Show parent
  #37
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Acoustic Cloud's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by vcovco View Post

The annoying thing about the echo stuff is that the asio latency is not that great and the drivers are such that no other apps can share the outputs. I know you should be concerned with audio just for DAW, but I like to monitor/edit in apps outside of Cubase.
The newest update fixes this. I have the AF8, and was always frustrated that I couldnt have Winamp, Soundforge, media player, etc open, even minimized with Sonar still open. They play together now. Echo makes no mention of this being a benefit in the newer release.. I still need to check if there are output separations in the cans/mains with the mixer now. Ive had that line attenuator so long, I just grab the volume knob.
Old 16th October 2007 | Show parent
  #38
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Lay in Wait's Avatar
 

Hey Rick, Have you and the guys at Presonus ever thought of maybe changing the name of the products away from the Fire???? Line. It seems really confusing when all the names sound pretty much the same. I could easily see shipping and ordering problems when dealing with people that arent fully aware of your products (ie typical music store employees). For example, I had a hell of a time explaining I needed to order a Shure SM7, he kept saying he had an SM57 in stock. See where Im going with this. Just a thought as a consumer, thats all.

Craig
Old 16th October 2007 | Show parent
  #39
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vcovco's Avatar
 

Thanks, Drummin. I probably sound like a right whiner, and definitely don't mean to be. The only reason that I checked the CPU was that I was getting pops and clicks at random...they don't seem to be related, but thats what led me to discover the spikes.

At this point, that is my only beef, so if I have a rough idea when it will be fixed, I'm satisfied.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Acoustic Cloud
The newest update fixes this. I have the AF8, and was always frustrated that I couldnt have Winamp, Soundforge, media player, etc open, even minimized with Sonar still open. They play together now. Echo makes no mention of this being a benefit in the newer release..
I did notice somewhere in the readme for 4.1 or 4.3 that multiclient was addressed, but I still could not get it working. Tech Support mentioned that I should be using different outputs for different apps. Are you using same outs (like 1+2) in Sonar ASIO and then able to play winamp using same WDM/Microsoft Sound Mapper outs?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yisrael
Do any of you guys know anything about the alesis multimix. I was looking a the specs on them and from that they seem pretty great. 16ch interface with usb 2.0, and the capabilities to run live sound. I guess the fact that its only $350 scares me compared to most purely dedicated interfaces that are much more.
I've heard they are okay, but just okay...kind of limited, and only a few digital ins and outs (basically like a mixer plugged into stereo soundcard) I would stay far away from usb if you plan on doing more than a few tracks at once and go for firewire. I think max sampling rate is 44 or 48k as well for both usb and firewire (Edit: limits for both usb and firewire on the alesis multimix series I mean)
Old 16th October 2007 | Show parent
  #40
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Lay in Wait's Avatar
 

Quote:
16ch interface with usb 2.0,
I would stay away from usb at all costs, especially if your looking for 16 channels.
Old 16th October 2007 | Show parent
  #41
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Acoustic Cloud's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by vcovco View Post

I did notice somewhere in the readme for 4.1 or 4.3 that multiclient was addressed, but I still could not get it working. Tech Support mentioned that I should be using different outputs for different apps. Are you using same outs (like 1+2) in Sonar ASIO and then able to play winamp using same WDM/Microsoft Sound Mapper outs?
eeek, thats a bit over my head. I have a totally separate machine for the studio that saw the internet for windoze authorization ONLY, late last year. I run asio only, as wdm in Sonar has always burped blood all over the cake. I use winamp for playing mp3s on both computers, because the control is so much better than media player.... but I would assume that winamp is using the asio drivers, like everything else?? When I installed the newer Echo driver, I doidnt even notice this was fixed, until a week or so after, because I just got used to its limitations, and lived with it.

I dunno, thats puzzling. I just know that I can use 2 audio apps at once now, and I never could with the Echo.
Old 16th October 2007 | Show parent
  #42
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vcovco's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Acoustic Cloud
I just know that I can use 2 audio apps at once now, and I never could with the Echo.
So in other words, check your default Windows 'sound playback' device (START>SETTINGS>CONTROL PANEL>SOUNDS AND AUDIO...Audio tab)

Is that set to Audiofire 1+2 or 3+4? (might be called something else..at work now) I can't use both winamp or sound forge with my default sound device set to audiofire 1+2 while I have ASIO running in Cubase, for example.

Also..I am really curious to see what kind of latency you are getting with AF8..I havent used Sonar in ages, so not sure if there is a way to check your ASIO latency in ms.

So Acoustic...Are you using both a firepod and audiofire?

The Audiofire4 would have been a slam dunk for me if it had better latency and better drivers...I have been switching between the FS project and AF4 like a madman...I think either sounds better than the other depending on the hour of the day!!

Again, I had best latency of all when trying Presonus firebox over everything I've tried, but the pre's didnt have enough oomph for me and I was getting a fair amount of noise....(less dynamic range on ADC's than AF or Firestudio)
Old 16th October 2007 | Show parent
  #43
Here for the gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lay in Wait View Post
I would stay away from usb at all costs, especially if your looking for 16 channels.


Thanks for the help. Why do you say I should stay away from usb. I've always heard that it was slower than firewire but I thought usb2.0 was about the same. I don't know very much about this kind of thing so forgive me if this is something that everyone should know.
thanks
Old 16th October 2007 | Show parent
  #44
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vcovco's Avatar
 

Hi Yisrael.

USB2.0 specs are very deceiving. USB2.0 is theoretically faster than firewire 1 (480Mbps vs 400Mbps), but because of its architecture it induces WAY more cpu utilization. Trust us on this one. I've tried first hand to get decent results out of usb audio devices and they are okay for laying down a few tracks, but anymore than maybe 4 or 5 tracks and you'll start seeing serious hiccups in your DAW.

When it came time to upgrade from my trusty Maudio delta44 which I know and love, I was loathe to spend more for firewire, but there really is no other serious choice unless you want an internal pci/pci-e board with a breakout box.

Try a video capture with a usb 2.0 device vs firewire and you'll see the same results..tons of dropped frames.

Firewire is much more suited for bandwidth intensive applications like audio and video.

Most manufacturers these days are doing the external peripheral thing for audio interfaces.

Do a google for usb vs firewire and you will find some interesting articles!

Hope this helps...
Old 16th October 2007 | Show parent
  #45
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vcovco's Avatar
 

And P.S.

Rick...at the risk of having a Firestudio hurled at my head...

Please help me to sleep easier at night...just let us know:

1) What is ballpark ETA for updated Firestudio Project driver

2) Will it address the %DPC TIME CPU spikes
Old 16th October 2007 | Show parent
  #46
Here for the gear
 

Vcovco-
that is extremely helpful. thank you for clarifying everything
Old 16th October 2007 | Show parent
  #47
Here for the gear
 

Do you know anything about the alesis multimix firewire. I guess I keep going back to them because you can run live sound as well as recording and I spend a lot of time recording. The more forums I read the less I want to get the alesis. I could definatly use 16 channels for recording though.
thanks
-Yisrael
Old 16th October 2007 | Show parent
  #48
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vcovco's Avatar
 

Hi Yisrael,

Be sure to search the forums for multimix...there are already some good threads about it:

https://www.gearslutz.com/board/searc...archid=6860750

If you still have questions, I would recommened starting a new thread that asks specifically for opinions about the multimix and what you are trying to achieve. This is an excellent place with lots of helpful people!

Even if budget is a factor, I personally prefer to separate out components...mixer and interface, but there are others who might disagree.
Old 16th October 2007 | Show parent
  #49
Here for the gear
 

Vcovco-
I agree with you on seperating your mixer and interface. I have been searching through the forums about different interfaces. I think I was just trying to get to much for my money. Thanks for all of your help, I am new to "advanced recording" well you know what I mean. For the past 2 years I have been using a tascam us-122 and garageband to throw down some tracks. By next week I'll be running Logic pro and reasin propellerhead. I just need a good interface.
thanks for all the help.
-Yisrael
Old 17th October 2007 | Show parent
  #50
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ricknaqvi's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by vcovco View Post
And P.S.

Rick...at the risk of having a Firestudio hurled at my head...

Please help me to sleep easier at night...just let us know:

1) What is ballpark ETA for updated Firestudio Project driver

2) Will it address the %DPC TIME CPU spikes
1. Ballpark ETA for the next Project driver is around the end of the year. It is a ballpark ETA so don't kill me if we are late. However, we are constantly tweaking and trying to make our products the best we can be.

2. I am not sure if it will address the ghost spikes since I am told this is an anomaly with windows more than with our driver and does not affect performance.
What I am told is that the next driver will feature daisy chaining and better performance for Power Macs.

However, you had mentioned that you had heard some random pops. Please email me at [email protected] and let me hook you up with a few settings to try.

Kind Regards,
Rick
Old 17th October 2007 | Show parent
  #51
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ricknaqvi's Avatar
 

Quote:
Hey Rick, Have you and the guys at Presonus ever thought of maybe changing the name of the products away from the Fire???? Line
Yeah, believe me I know it's confusing.

I'd love to name our next product BOB or something like that just so it can be differentiated...... heh
Old 17th October 2007 | Show parent
  #52
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vcovco's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by ricknaqvi

1. Ballpark ETA for the next Project driver is around the end of the year. It is a ballpark ETA so don't kill me if we are late. However, we are constantly tweaking and trying to make our products the best we can be.

2. I am not sure if it will address the ghost spikes since I am told this is an anomaly with windows more than with our driver and does not affect performance.
What I am told is that the next driver will feature daisy chaining and better performance for Power Macs.

Hi Rick,

You and Presonus are da bomb. As a sysadmin, I work alongside developers all day long (and delve into code a bit myself), so I can appreciate what a task it is and hard to target an exact date. Good to know we can expect something in that date range.

I still disagree with the CPU anomaly, but that is just me. Thanks for the offer of assistance and for your valuable input on these forums!
Old 17th October 2007 | Show parent
  #53
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strat+ac30's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by ricknaqvi View Post
1. Ballpark ETA for the next Project driver is around the end of the year. It is a ballpark ETA so don't kill me if we are late. However, we are constantly tweaking and trying to make our products the best we can be.Kind Regards,
Rick
Rick, thanks for this info. I just picked up a FS Project through Warren @ Front End that will hopefully arrive in the next day or two. I was going to call and ask about when the new drivers were expected but your response beat me to it! Really appreciate your involvement on the forums. I've got a Firepod (before the name change) and have called customer support about that several times. Once you get through the waiting lines (they're not too bad...) everyone I've spoken with has been very helpful and knowledgable. That's why I'm sticking with Presonus over a MOTU interface or some other company.

Dave

P.S. I've also got to recommend Front End Audio. I had some questions abuot the FS Project that he didn't know...so he called Presonus to find out for me and then got back to me - within 15 minutes. Also had a fun conversation about all things audio.
Old 18th October 2007 | Show parent
  #54
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Lay in Wait's Avatar
 

Quote:
I'd love to name our next product BOB or something like that just so it can be differentiated......
Well I was thinkin Bill, but ya BOB has a good ring to it

Craig
Old 18th October 2007 | Show parent
  #55
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ricknaqvi's Avatar
 

Quote:
P.S. I've also got to recommend Front End Audio.
Yeah, Warren's a cool guy. Just saw him at AES.

Also, I'm glad to know you had good luck with our tech support. It's a bitch trying to support computer products. But we try as I know most companies like us do.
Old 8th April 2008 | Show parent
  #56
Gear Nut
 

I am looking to buy a firestudio project from the states and I live in Australia.

To run this off AU power do I just need a universal travel power adapter?
Old 8th May 2008 | Show parent
  #57
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smoovemode's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by ricknaqvi View Post
Actually the Firestudio Project uses a new v.3 driver that has addressed the issues we were having with Sonar and the Firestudio2626. We have Sonar 6 running on about 4 machines here at work (I also have it on my own laptop) and it is playing nicely.

We are going to be updating the Firestudio2626 driver to this new version 3 one as well. We are working on that right now.

As with all computer devices from any brand, my advice is to try one with your system and work with a dealer that will let you return it. If you have a chance to check out one, please let me know how it works for you.

Kind Regards,
Rick,

Thanks for your wealth of information. I hate to put you on the spot , but how does the firestudio project compare with this new Alesis IO/26? It seems like it's the new craze right now!

Secondly, I thought I heard somewhere online that the FS Project also has a monitor mix(or something) and the FP 10 does not. Is this true?

I'm in the same predicament as I have access to an FP 10 and I need to see if I want to spend the extra money on the FS project...But, then the Alesis looks pretty cool. So, now I'm just confused! LOL
Old 8th May 2008 | Show parent
  #58
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I really can't comment on how the Project comares to the Alesis, mainly because I've never actually used the Alesis plus I might be a bit biased! :-)

However, I will tell you that the converters and preamps on the FS Project are a big step up from the older Firepod/FP10. The FP10/Firepod is still a great sounding unit. We've sold a ton of them and customers love them. But our goal with the Project was to take it up a significant notch.

Yes, the Project features a DSP mixer that gives you the ability to send separate monitor mixes for each musician and route those out of the line outputs and the built in headphone amp. It also does this with no latency.

The Firepod/FP10 has an analog 'mix' knob to allow you to monitor with no latency however you are not able to send separate headphone mixes unless you set those up in your DAW. Depending on how much horsepower your computer has, this is totally possible. However, the nice thing about the DSP mixer on the Project is that it is powered using a chip on board the FS Project. So it doesn't tax your CPU at all.

Hope this helps. Feel free to call or email me directly if you have any other questions.
Old 8th May 2008 | Show parent
  #59
Gear Nut
 

So is it general consensus that the FireStudio 2626/Project are solid enough to work with on OSX? I have a macbook pro (TI firewire chipset) and am looking for a remote interface and the fs would be PERFECT except for the driver issues I keep hearing about I just don't know if those issues apply to osx.
Old 8th May 2008 | Show parent
  #60
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I have a new MacBook Pro 2.4gHz that the Firestudio is working perfectly with.

If you'd like to email me your system specs, I'll be happy to check with our guys. However, as long as you are on 10.5.2 and using the latest driver, we haven't heard of any problems.

Kind Regards,
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