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Starting up a low end studio. Condenser Microphones
Old 5th September 2007
  #1
Gear Addict
 

Starting up a low end studio.

Hey guys,

I'm fairly new to recording, and I was looking to record in my bedroom.
I'm 15, and I make and work minimum wage, so I don't have an outstanding budget. I thought up a list of equipment, but if there is anything wrong, or anything else better, just let me know, thanks.

-Custom Computer(2.3ghz, 2 gb RaM, 250-300g hd)
-Presonus Firepod
-Shure Mic Pack(3xSM 57, 1xBeta 52A)
-Shure KSM27
Old 5th September 2007
  #2
Lives for gear
 
Akoppenheffer's Avatar
 

Yeah, that'll get ya started. I had a similar setup when I first got going and got pretty good results. What program are you running for your DAW?
Old 5th September 2007
  #3
Gear Addict
 

I know absolutely nothing about the recording software, but I suppose I will start out with steinberg cubase SE.
Old 5th September 2007
  #4
Gear Maniac
 
Barnabas's Avatar
 

What instruments, voices will you be recording?
What style of music will you be recording?
Those can make a difference in mic choice.
Old 5th September 2007
  #5
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Barnabas View Post
What instruments, voices will you be recording?
What style of music will you be recording?
Those can make a difference in mic choice.
Guitars, drums, bass, keyboards. and I will be recording a variety from Pop-Rock to hardcore.
Old 5th September 2007
  #6
Gear Guru
 
Glenn Kuras's Avatar
Not going to try to tell you to throw all of you money up front on room acoustics, but if you are just starting out, NOW would be a good time to get a good handle on the importance of room sound (acoustics).

Here are a few links for you to chew on. heh


GIK Acoustics - Education
http://www.sbrjournal.net/journalsit.../Acoustics.htm
Acoustic Treatment and Design for Recording Studios and Listening Rooms

Glenn
Old 5th September 2007
  #7
Lives for gear
 
backplay's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by acdctom92 View Post
I know absolutely nothing about the recording software, but I suppose I will start out with steinberg cubase SE.
Than you better start with something like this: REAPER | About

Much cheaper and does everything you will need!
Old 5th September 2007
  #8
Lives for gear
 

tom.
if your running one hard drive in that pc..
get a second to record to.....7200 rpm 16mb cache.
i doubt your sound quality will be low end with that set up.
for software, check out what i use in my sig.
youll have all the features youll ever need.
both reaper n powertracks together are under 100 buks.
neither require dongles which i dislike.
(pgmusic.com and cockos.com for demos.).
both are used by lots of professionals.
(read the respective forums and user references if u doubt me.)
both come with large fx suites built in.
you need nothing else.
powertracks has a neat feature. as well as all its midi features.
tc helicon built in.
this will let u create back up vocs from a lead voc for example/
harmony etc.
reaper has a slew of fx built in.
also....check out band in a box by pg. used by musicians all over the world.
while others are futzing around spending hours n days getting tracks recorded,
it will come back with a full arrangement of a back up band.
instantly..ie..drums/bass/rhythm etc.
after you have chosen a music style and entered in the chords in your song.
difficult to explain , so try the demo sometime.
Old 5th September 2007
  #9
Gear Head
 

As far as i can remember, the firepod comes with cubase se, so that would be a good choice for recording software. Use it. I can almost guarantee that it will suit your needs in the beginning. I've owned the ksm27 previously. It is a good microphone, and you can use it for a lot of things. I think you have planned everything okay when it comes to gear. But remember room acoustics. You won't get good takes in a crappy room. for vocals you can consider using Sm pro audio's "the mic thing" or se electronics' "whateverit'scalled". Good luck.
Old 5th September 2007
  #10
Gear Addict
 

I had stability issues with the Cubase SE that came with my Firestudio, but Rick from Presonus mentioned that they have a new a version of SE now, which is apparently much better. I'd definitely give it a good go before you look at other options. Anyone experienced the new version???
Old 5th September 2007
  #11
Gear Addict
 

Thanks so much guys!

Now manning when you say my setup will not be 'low end' does this mean it will be better than low end? or worse? I'm assuming better, but just making sure. Will deff. look into the second hard drive and the software, they both sound great, dont know which to choose from!

About the acoustics; I have a 3x5 closet which i will be putting a door on, and laying acoustic panels on the walls, this will be my 'isolation booth' for vocals, and the guitar amps. As far as the drums, maybe I can just make a small 'room' out of mattress pads, its better than nothing.
Old 5th September 2007
  #12
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by manning1 View Post
tom.
if your running one hard drive in that pc..
get a second to record to.....7200 rpm 16mb cache.
i doubt your sound quality will be low end with that set up.
Um... No. The hard drive in your PC is the last thing that will determine your sound quality. Yes, a 7200 rpm drive is what you'll want, but I don't know if you'll necessarily need 16mb. 8mb is fine, but of course 16mb would be better. You'll have to be the judge, but just know that it won't change a thing about the quality of your sound.

Quote:
Originally Posted by manning1 View Post
for software, check out what i use in my sig.
youll have all the features youll ever need.
I doubt that... EVER? Maybe just starting off...

Quote:
Originally Posted by manning1 View Post
both reaper n powertracks together are under 100 buks.
neither require dongles which i dislike.
So you dislike the ability to travel with the software you've purchased and painlessly run it on any system? Dongles are a great thing, and if you have no problem buying legit plugins that are EASILY worth the money you pay for them, then they always work in your favor.

Quote:
Originally Posted by manning1 View Post
also....check out band in a box by pg. used by musicians all over the world.
while others are futzing around spending hours n days getting tracks recorded,
it will come back with a full arrangement of a back up band.
Futzing around doing what?!! RECORDING!? Since when is that a problem!? A fake band is never going to replace a real one...

To the OP... just make sure you check out allllllll the options out there, don't just hear one thing and run with it. Also, look at what the majority of the industry uses. If you're trying to make this a career, then going an alternate route might not be your best approach. If it's just a hobby that's another thing, but definitely look at the major players in this game. I'm sure you're already aware, but Logic, ProTools, Nuendo, and Digital Performer are a few of the big names...
Old 5th September 2007
  #13
Gear Addict
 

So basically what are plug-ins, and what do they do?
Old 5th September 2007
  #14
Lives for gear
 

tom.
i meant way better than low end.
a guy in europe got a hit useing a low end blaster card.
if i remember.
so YES...imho the quality is definitely enough.
the idea of the second dedicated drive to record to is to let windows operate on its own hard drive.
there are good technical reasons for this.
one being .ifu record to the same drive as win is on...
if win decides to do something it can "interrupt" .
tom....
heres a slew/pages of user references on powertracks.
PG Music Inc. - Guestbook - PowerTracks Pro Audio
and on band in a box.....20 pages of user comments.
PG Music Inc. - Guestbook - Band-in-a-Box for Windows
heres also a review of biab by pc magazine....
Sound Tricks - Band-in-a-Box 2004 - Review by PC Magazine
notice the comment on biab...
"Band-in-a-Box continues to define cutting edge MIDI music generation software. "
and heres independent user comments on amazon by some biab users....(just google for more and the independent biab user group.)
Amazon.com: Reviews for Band in a Box 2007: Software
and for reaper.....by sound on sound magazine...
Article Preview - Cockos Reaper DAW
(reaper has had more updates since this review.)
reaper is a truly wondefull product imho.
and lots of people will back meup on that statement includeing many pro's who have used everything there is on the market.

matthew.
with respect sir u misread my post.
let me address your points one at a time.
1. when i said "i doubt etc" i meant with his sound card n other gear etc.
i WASNT referring to the drive.
of course the hard drive has no effect on sound.
by the way 16mb cahe hard drives are preferable.
better performance. jeesh.
2. you should check out the software i'm useing.
sound quality is purely dependent on the input signal chain ...ie...mic/mic pre/
quality of ADA. obviously you havent.
3. dongles are a GREAT THING.??
your joking,right ?? just read the complaints on slutz bout em.
and on various recording forums.
(use search...as an aside to the poster TOM....
dont take my word for it....search this site.)
the software i suggested can be used on any pc, highly portable.
and u can travel with it !! without a dongle.
4. re band in a box , obviously youve never used it.
used the world over by music educators and musicians.
its a wonderfull tool for giving a songwriter new song ideas and creating bed tracks fast. over which you can add then your final lead and vocal tracks etc.
it will even give you ideas for melodies n solos.

sorry mattew but , with respect i disagree with everything you said.

to the original poster tom.
if u doubt me....talk to other users on the links i provided for lots more user references. (cockos.com and pgmusic.com).
youll find lots of very educated people on both sites.
who will back me up who have used also many of the packages matthew cited.
Old 5th September 2007
  #15
Lives for gear
 
Herman Munster's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by acdctom92 View Post
Hey guys,

I'm fairly new to recording, and I was looking to record in my bedroom.
I'm 15, and I make and work minimum wage, so I don't have an outstanding budget. I thought up a list of equipment, but if there is anything wrong, or anything else better, just let me know, thanks.

-Custom Computer(2.3ghz, 2 gb RaM, 250-300g hd)
-Presonus Firepod
-Shure Mic Pack(3xSM 57, 1xBeta 52A)
-Shure KSM27
This is simlar to my setup except for your mics. I use Cubase SL. You might get frustrated with SE as I think it limits you to 3-4 tracks at one time. You should be able to get a good sound with that setup. I've learned that 95-99% of me getting a good sound has to do more with using good instruments, players and singers than it does my gear. But...... the gear helps.
Old 5th September 2007
  #16
Matthew, take your unfounded flaming elsewhere.

Everything you've got there is a good option. I haven't used a KSM27 so I can't knock it but there are a TON of great options in or below that price range. Check out the Studio Projects C1. I've got $2,000 mics that get replaced for vocals takes by this $200 mic.

Cubase is a great program to start with and to continue with! I will say that I'm very interested in Reaper though.

Plugins are effects or instruments that run inside your DAW environment (Cubase, Reaper, etc). You can "plug them in" on inserts for individual channels, or assign them to their own FX tracks. Plugin instruments are more appropriately called virtual instruments and are controlled by Midi tracks in your DAW. Some people like plugins, some don't. The great thing is though, they come with reaper and cubase (you can buy much better ones though).
Old 5th September 2007
  #17
Lives for gear
 
8th_note's Avatar
 

I've put together a budget studio over the last few years. In your situation you'll need to squeeze every penny until Lincoln screams. Here's a few tips from my experience:

Software: I think the version of Cubase that comes with the Presonus is pretty limited. Obviously you'll want to try it but you might have a significant cost to upgrade to get a decent version of the software. One other package to look at is n-Track Studio. You can download a demo version from their website for free and try it out. It's very intuitive but also quite powerful. It comes with a basic set of plugins (compressor, reverb, etc) and it costs $75. I've tried Reaper but I still prefer n-track.

Microphones: Can you purchase off of ebay? If so you can start out with a minimal microphone setup then you can get some real bargains used. Here's a few mics that are cheap and well regarded:
Audio-Technica MBK (old model was MB2000) - this is an instrument mic that costs about $50 and sounds very different (IMO better) than a 57. If you have one of these and a 57 you will have two quite different flavors of a dynamic mic.
Audio-Technica ATM29HE - Another instrument mic that is made for loud sources. Works great on snare and guitar cabs. I had one already and just got another one on ebay for $8!!. This is a $160 microphone.
For an LDC the MXL V67 is hard to beat. Costs about $100 and it is a good all around mic. You can often find these used for about $60.
Audio-Technica Pro37 - An SDC (Small Diaphragm Condenser) microphone that is very versatile. Works good on everything from drums to acoustic guitar. About $120.
Audio-Technica Mb4K (old model was MB4000) - you can sometimes find these used for about $50. This is an SDC mic that has a flatter response than the Pro37. Excellent as overheads and most other duties.
Audio-Technica drum mic set - You can sometimes find a set of 4 AT drum mics used for dirt cheap. They're not the best mics out there but they'll work fine for now. I made some excellent sounding drum recordings with these mics when I was starting out.

My overall advise is to buy absolutely the minimum amount of stuff you need right now and as you gain experience you will be in a much better position to add to your gear inventory. Keep your powder dry.
Old 5th September 2007
  #18
Lives for gear
 

A noob here too , making many of the same choices , nice to read
How is the OP monitoring ? , or is that not a requirment ?
Old 5th September 2007
  #19
Gear Addict
 

For now, I am going to monitor with 2 30W stereo speakers.
Old 5th September 2007
  #20
Lives for gear
 
Unclenny's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by 8th_note View Post
My overall advise is to buy absolutely the minimum amount of stuff you need right now and as you gain experience you will be in a much better position to add to your gear inventory. Keep your powder dry.
THAT is great advise!

Set yourself up simply and start recording.

As you get in deeper ask more questions.
Old 5th September 2007
  #21
You should skip the KSM27, get a Studio Projects C1 or a MXL V67 and instead spend the money on a pair of decent headphones (I like Sennheiser HD 280 Pros which are about $100). You will not get good results from cheapo stereo speakers and those headphones are going to be necessary when tracking! You might even want to check these out, i have heard good things about them and they are dirt friggin cheap!

If you're looking for more cheap mic options check out these (really) Small Diaphragm Condensers: Naiant. They have a good rep around here and for $25 each, whats to lose!?
Old 6th September 2007
  #22
Gear Maniac
 
pipelineaudio's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by matthew.sawicki View Post
So you dislike the ability to travel with the software you've purchased and painlessly run it on any system? Dongles are a great thing, and if you have no problem buying legit plugins that are EASILY worth the money you pay for them, then they always work in your favor.
Errr, reaper users are known for carrying around their reaper on a USB key, or simply downloading it from the net wherever they go...thats a LOT less hassle than a dongle. I see no benefit in this scenario from having a dongle
Old 6th September 2007
  #23
Lives for gear
 
soupking's Avatar
 

You are so my hero.

Don't worry too much about the high end stuff. It'll come with time. If you can handle being a 'boy scout' and pull a cool sound out of a pile of sticks, you'll be able to shotgun blast people when you get to that level.

2 cents that aren't from a pro but somebody who's worked really hard at building a studio using high-end stuff.

There is an art to screwing up. Like Nike says, "just do it".

Peace,
-soupking

ps If you ever get into ribbon mics, the Cascade Fathead II is amazing.
Old 6th September 2007
  #24
Gear Maniac
 
sluttygearhere's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Allesmachine View Post
You should skip the KSM27, get a Studio Projects C1 or a MXL V67 and instead spend the money on a pair of decent headphones (I like Sennheiser HD 280 Pros which are about $100). You will not get good results from cheapo stereo speakers and those headphones are going to be necessary when tracking! You might even want to check these out, i have heard good things about them and they are dirt friggin cheap!
If it were me I would def go with the KSM27, great mic. or something similar to that. I would try to get a pretty decent mic to start out with because if you only have cheap lower end mics most of the time your sound is going to resemble that. That's just from my experience and opinion. I have been able to get some decent sounds with cheap mics, but it takes a lot of work. as far as MXL goes, I wouldn't go near them for anything. I think that their mics are completely useless. Now to be fair I haven't used all of their mics, but until I am proven wrong I stick by my opinion. If you are only using cheap stereo speakers you might want to think about getting some kind of monitors sometime in the near future, depending on the quality of the speakers you have. You generally want something that's going to give you the best representation of what's really coming out of the computer. but what you have will probably work for now. I used cheap stereo and pieced together stuff for years before I could afford anything decent. there are workarounds and ways to make anything work. .. hope what I had to say helped some.

-- Ben
Old 6th September 2007
  #25
Gear Addict
 

Thanks, I was planning on using MXL63Vs for overheads, what should I go with instead?
Old 6th September 2007
  #26
Lives for gear
 

tom.
dunno if this will help but,
one of the best drum sounds i ever heard was in a large studio
and they were useing pzm mics. on drum over heads.
but crowns pzm's were expensive.
so some people use modded radio shak pzm mics.
(sometimes u see em on ebay....n elsewhere.)
how about checking with naiant.com for overheads ??
it seems more than a few people on slutz like their mics for 25 buks apiece.
(but i dont know how good they would be on drum over heads.)
ive never tried one. but i'm thinking about it due to some positsive seen on slutz.
frankly drums are a "bitch" to record.
one thing u might consider is useing triggers on the kik n snare triggering
samples. this is something a number of studios do.
then just use stereo overhead pair.
drum triggers you can build for a buk or two out of pezo transducers.
heres an interesting link to help how to build drum triggers easily.
Drum Triggers DIY
Old 6th September 2007
  #27
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by manning1 View Post
tom.
i meant way better than low end.
a guy in europe got a hit useing a low end blaster card.
if i remember.
so YES...imho the quality is definitely enough.
the idea of the second dedicated drive to record to is to let windows operate on its own hard drive.
there are good technical reasons for this.
one being .ifu record to the same drive as win is on...
if win decides to do something it can "interrupt" .
tom....
heres a slew/pages of user references on powertracks.
PG Music Inc. - Guestbook - PowerTracks Pro Audio
and on band in a box.....20 pages of user comments.
PG Music Inc. - Guestbook - Band-in-a-Box for Windows
heres also a review of biab by pc magazine....
Sound Tricks - Band-in-a-Box 2004 - Review by PC Magazine
notice the comment on biab...
"Band-in-a-Box continues to define cutting edge MIDI music generation software. "
and heres independent user comments on amazon by some biab users....(just google for more and the independent biab user group.)
Amazon.com: Reviews for Band in a Box 2007: Software
and for reaper.....by sound on sound magazine...
Article Preview - Cockos Reaper DAW
(reaper has had more updates since this review.)
reaper is a truly wondefull product imho.
and lots of people will back meup on that statement includeing many pro's who have used everything there is on the market.

matthew.
with respect sir u misread my post.
let me address your points one at a time.
1. when i said "i doubt etc" i meant with his sound card n other gear etc.
i WASNT referring to the drive.
of course the hard drive has no effect on sound.
by the way 16mb cahe hard drives are preferable.
better performance. jeesh.
2. you should check out the software i'm useing.
sound quality is purely dependent on the input signal chain ...ie...mic/mic pre/
quality of ADA. obviously you havent.
3. dongles are a GREAT THING.??
your joking,right ?? just read the complaints on slutz bout em.
and on various recording forums.
(use search...as an aside to the poster TOM....
dont take my word for it....search this site.)
the software i suggested can be used on any pc, highly portable.
and u can travel with it !! without a dongle.
4. re band in a box , obviously youve never used it.
used the world over by music educators and musicians.
its a wonderfull tool for giving a songwriter new song ideas and creating bed tracks fast. over which you can add then your final lead and vocal tracks etc.
it will even give you ideas for melodies n solos.

sorry mattew but , with respect i disagree with everything you said.

to the original poster tom.
if u doubt me....talk to other users on the links i provided for lots more user references. (cockos.com and pgmusic.com).
youll find lots of very educated people on both sites.
who will back me up who have used also many of the packages matthew cited.
when you say the idea is to let windows operate on its own hard drive, does this mean you just record all your audio to the other drive, or all your audio, and your programs
Old 6th September 2007
  #28
Gear Head
 

yet another 2cents

Here is what I'm using:

Firepod (using Cubase that came with it on a decent PC)
M Audio Bx5 monitors and some good Sony headphones

MXL 990s
Shure 57
Audix D1, D2, D4, ADX50
AKG D110 kick
and some other random stuff

Here's where you can hear it:

MySpace.com - Captain Gallagher - DENTON, Texas - Indie / Rock / Experimental - www.myspace.com/captaingallagher


It gets the job done, and theres always room to expand. Plus that all totalled about $2k.

The Firepod is great, good choice. The included Cubase has suited me just fine, BUT I find the plugins (EQs, compressors, reverbs, other effects) a bit lacking. There are tons of good plugins available for free download, so look into that if you are using Cubase, or you can spend as little or as much as you want on adding plugins. So, Cubase should be fine, but once you experiment and have learned using its plugins, consider upgrading those.

Mics: yeah shure sm57s are good to have around, but you could probably get by with just 1, which Im sure you could find used for $70 (these things dont get beat up, so don't worry about getting it used)

My favorite under $100 mic is my MXL 990s. Should cost $50-$70 bucks I think. It isn't perfect for every situation, or for high end stuff, but the large diaphragm picks up a very strong clear signal that Ive used alot for vocals, guitars, and as a room mic for drums.

I wont even put in my 2 cents on drum mic'ing, because its all been argued to the ground in other forums. Don't be afraid to spend alot of money on drum mics though, it will pay off. If your songs will use alot of toms, make sure you have separate tom mics, because they just won't cut through well on overhead mics. On a budget, and being limited to 8 channels, try mic'ing from farther back, instead of clipping a mic onto every single piece of the set. I have had some decent results with using a overhead 'snare/HiHat area' mic, an overhead 'other cymbals' mic, a 'room mic' that gets a little bit of the whole kit, and a 'tom area' mic (which is hard to position correctly, but necessary to get toms to cut thru with punch). Oh, and a dedicated Kick mic of course. Im very happy with my AKG d110 (everyone loves the d112, but its twice as expensive).
See, I ended up giving my advice anyways..... damn, couldn't help it.


Have you considered your headphone monitoring situation? With 3 or 4 people playing and recording at once, especially in 2 isolated rooms, you'll need a good headphone amp. Check out the presonus hp60... maybe you'll want to upgrade to this later..... behringer makes some headphone amps that are very cheap and can get the job done. and closed ear headphones (my $25 pairs of Sennheisers are decent, but maybe splurge on just one pair of AKGs or Sonys, which you can also use for comparison while you're mixing).

If you're using cheap monitors, I think thats fine at first, but try to cross-reference them as often as possible. Once you think it sounds good on those monitors, see how it sounds on headphones, or on your computer speakers, or whatever else you have, until you can afford better monitors that will give a more accurate sound.



Keep in mind that this stuff will have pretty good resell value, whether on eBay or GS, so I say go forth and buy boldly.... if you have the cash, that is..... you can always, sell, trade, upgrade, return, or whatever.....




Oh, and I wouldn't cover the drum set with mattress pads. Give the drums as much room as possible. If you need to isolate something, isolate the guitar amp. Stick the singer under a mattress pad. Or on the back porch.




And my thoughts about the hard drive situation. If you don't want to invest in another hard drive (yet), just make sure that you are disconnected from the internet, and have nothing else running while you record. Close all that annoying background stuff that probably came installed on your computer whether you wanted it or not. The risk with recording to same hard drive that windows runs off of is that some other program could throw in an interruption and cause glitches. But if you restrict the computer to only running Cubase, or whichever DAW you choose, you should be fine for now.




So there. thats my story, and i'm sticking to it.
Old 7th September 2007
  #29
Gear Maniac
 
sluttygearhere's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by acdctom92 View Post
Thanks, I was planning on using MXL63Vs for overheads, what should I go with instead?

If it were me I would probably shoot for a matched pair of Shure KSM109's or a matched pair of Rode NT5's. They're a little more expensive (about 400 for the pair depending on where you look). But I think it's worth it to try to go a little higher then the bottom of the low end. I think you would be happier with the sounds and it would be easier to get better sounds. Plus, the stuff that's a little higher will always have some kind of resale value if taken care of. So if it turns out you don't like it, you can usually get most of your money back on ebay or something like that.

-- Ben
Old 7th September 2007
  #30
Lives for gear
 
johnwayne's Avatar
 

For overheads also look at Oktave Mk012, or Audio technica ATM 450. Might want to also look at the MOTU 8pre because it will let you add 8 inputs by ADAT later on.

57's are great, but I despise the C1. Never could get it to sound good on anything.
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