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Yamaha Ns10m & Yamaha Ns10m STUDIO Studio Monitors
Old 23rd July 2014
  #31
well .. save your money and get Yahama MSP5 ..

they claim it does what NS10M's does ... it does !! but better

mine tends to translate well .. they have harsh high mids .. but this only made my mixes chrispier and less harsh.

you need to cross reference bass frequincies .. they also lack low end below 80HZ .. but much better low end than ns10's.

i recorded and mixed an album with them .. acoustic/world music
https://soundcloud.com/the-13th-note...of-arabia-mini

if you think that this mix isn't good, then it's me not the monitors .. i have a weird taste in mixing which almost no one likes in my country !

i also mixed this: https://soundcloud.com/alaghawas/raven on them.
Old 7th January 2015
  #32
1. I do not EVER recall being in a studio in hollywood that did not include a set of NS10 monitors on the ends of the console.
2. I do not EVER recall being in a studio where the NS10s were not the main monitors used while mixing...And I could start a list that wouldn't end for a long time.
3.ALL of these studios did have a HUGE pair of something on the back wall (or soffet) behind the console (usually UREI 813s, jbl 4435 etc., or something bigger) and also a pair of tiny auratone cubes next to the ns10s.

In all cases, the yamahas were used to mix on, and the cubes and "big" room monitors were used to "check" to make sure we weren't missing anything. So,....as a tool, the NS10 monitors were very trusted. I don't recall anybody ever thinking there was a point to arguing whether they sounded better than "X" or not,..because they were clearly a tool that was very hard to beat. They always had the "end product" in mind...and not their personal opinion of what they thought the NS10s sounded like.

My personal favorite was a pair of 813s. But you had to have a BGW 750 just to power them. And you blow drivers using that kind of power.
Old 7th January 2015
  #33
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Russell Dawkins View Post
I think the reason many think that NS10s sound awful is that most mixes actually sound awful and the Yamahas are simply delivering the truth. I find I can hear details on them that escape the vast majority of the popular speakers, including most of the sought-after brands (you know who they are), and I think this is because their transient response is so good, including settling time in the bass region. See the NS10M graphs on this pdf,
http://tinyurl.com/c9wt76o
which includes startling results from some highly respected brands:

Very interesting read, with eye-opening test results.
Old 7th January 2015
  #34
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I concur the same observation that NS-10's were fixtures in every major studio I worked. [along with at least 1 Auratone]. They were the 'main' monitor to work from, and anything else was used to check or impress.
Old 18th August 2015
  #35
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Wow, feel bad for the OP. Years and no answer lmao.

Can someone actually answer the question now? Which is "better?" Studio or the non studio version
Old 14th October 2015
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IkennaFuNkEn View Post
Wow, feel bad for the OP. Years and no answer lmao.

Can someone actually answer the question now? Which is "better?" Studio or the non studio version
Another poster asked the same question on the previous page too. I am curious too as I have a chance of getting the original non studio version for a cheap price.
Old 14th October 2015
  #37
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--

Last edited by AuldLangSine; 14th October 2015 at 10:55 PM..
Old 30th October 2015
  #38
Quote:
Originally Posted by IkennaFuNkEn View Post
Wow, feel bad for the OP. Years and no answer lmao.

Can someone actually answer the question now? Which is "better?" Studio or the non studio version
Which is better?????? Better is an awfully subjective word. You might want to insert a more descriptive word in place of better. I've mixed on a lot of NS-10s, and, unfortunately, It's been long enough ago that probably none of them were "studio" ones.

HOWEVER<.. from what I read that difference was between the two,....and from what I hear today as "mixes" from the studio crowd,..I would think the older non-studio ones would do better at pointing the current crowd in the right direction.

I must also state, that (from what I read the difference was between the two)..back when we were all completely analog....it may have been a little nicer to use the "studio" version.... Might have meant not checking the mix every now and then on the big monitors. It was easy to have things a little less bright,....but no big deal for the mastering guys.

The original ns-10s are very bright...and I think it could be put to very good use to counteract what the young wannabe crown thinks is a proper mix...I mean, they don't even check it with "the world' (whatever that means) before they claim their "way to bright mix'..absolutely perfect, killer, etc.,

I'm not in hollywood anymore,..so maybe nobody in this town would get it right even if they had the chance.
Old 30th October 2015
  #39
See "NS 10 Variants" halfway down this page:
The Yamaha NS10 Story
Old 30th October 2015
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by puke View Post
Which is better?????? Better is an awfully subjective word. You might want to insert a more descriptive word in place of better. I've mixed on a lot of NS-10s, and, unfortunately, It's been long enough ago that probably none of them were "studio" ones.

HOWEVER<.. from what I read that difference was between the two,....and from what I hear today as "mixes" from the studio crowd,..I would think the older non-studio ones would do better at pointing the current crowd in the right direction.

I must also state, that (from what I read the difference was between the two)..back when we were all completely analog....it may have been a little nicer to use the "studio" version.... Might have meant not checking the mix every now and then on the big monitors. It was easy to have things a little less bright,....but no big deal for the mastering guys.

The original ns-10s are very bright...and I think it could be put to very good use to counteract what the young wannabe crown thinks is a proper mix...I mean, they don't even check it with "the world' (whatever that means) before they claim their "way to bright mix'..absolutely perfect, killer, etc.,

I'm not in hollywood anymore,..so maybe nobody in this town would get it right even if they had the chance.
thanks
Old 31st October 2015
  #41
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I have owned the Studios and a very early set, and the Studio versions were much different and entirely better. They changed both the woofer and tweeter design over the years, and the as a result the tweeter got smoother and less peaky, and the bass response got much better. The old versions are genuinely terrible; the Studios are just unpleasant.
Old 4th November 2015
  #42
Entirely better.....what does that mean.???? (take this with a grain of salt)
I did not like the original NS10s, but it was clear there was no better tool to force the bad parts of your mix out into the open for all to hear. Very tiring to listen to,..but if you could make it sound good on the old NS10s, you knew it was going to sound good on nearly everything out there in the world it was going to be played on.
I am guessing when you use the term "entirely better", you use it the same way you would say 4435s , or 813s (if you haven't worn them out...you can do that), or (insert wayyy cooolll monitors here that we all wish we had in our living room...many of which may be out of print due to how much they cost).
I do not ever recall even using any of the "cool" monitors to work up a mix on. It just never happenned (unless somebody important was in the control room and they needed that feel good moment).

I will be the first to admit, I will not use ns10s for listening,..never have. (I have three different flavors of tannoys that I really like the sound of...all which sound much better than NS10s)
Old 4th November 2015
  #43
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By "entirely better", I mean exactly what I said - extended bass response, smoother treble. They are a flatter sounding speaker with a wider freq range.

If you think that's less desirable, fine.

Lots of people primarily mix on other speakers, but use NS-10s to check their mids. I started using Auratones in that role years ago because they perform the same task but require less real estate.

Last edited by Dr. Mordo; 4th November 2015 at 05:23 AM..
Old 6th November 2015
  #44
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. Mordo View Post
By "entirely better", I mean exactly what I said - extended bass response, smoother treble. They are a flatter sounding speaker with a wider freq range.

If you think that's less desirable, fine.

Lots of people primarily mix on other speakers, but use NS-10s to check their mids. I started using Auratones in that role years ago because they perform the same task but require less real estate.

This, being a sound studio/recording, etc., forum,.... is not an audiofile forum. I mistook your definition as a sound engineers definition rather than audiofile definition.

Most engineers (I guess they are mostly retired or dead now..at least the ones I knew) view "better" as the better TOOL for getting the desired end result with the least difficulty. "Better" sounding (or even insert "best") speakers NEVER do that, never have and never will....... Unless everyone in the world can afford the equivalent in their bedrooms, dens, cars, etc.,

That is why 4435s sit there in the soffits (or wall, or ???) and look good rather than get used.

Sure, if we were DONE, and just sitting around in the studio...and liked the songs we just mixed, we would turn off the ns10s, and crank up the 813s loud as hell and just sit and enjoy. Because we were so sick of those NS10s. They are so pesky, like a rotten mother in law, telling you everything you need to change, and what you are doing wrong, etc., etc., etc., How irritating. But in the case of the NS10.....it is right more often than your mother in law....(or ex mother in law)....also less crazy than your mother in law.

From your description of the "studio' models, I suspect the "studio" models are not as pesky and irritating as the originals... Which may not necessarily be a good thing TO A SOUND ENGINEER... ALthough GREAT..to an audiofile type.
Old 8th November 2015
  #45
DSC
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I have had my NS-10's for over 10 years and now my ears are trained to them. I don't use them to mix low end, but they are great for everything else.
Old 25th November 2015
  #46
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I use the old NS10m the kind that stand upright. I use the original grills too. I don't use them to mix exclusively but as a reference to check for mid-range levels and clarity. They are not made to check low bass so forget trying to do that with these.

The better amp you can use gives you a better chance of the NS10m's revealing more of what you are using the speaker for in the first place. A cleaner amp produces less artifacts. Then what you hear is what you get. The NS10m's are not meant to be used as final playback to sit back and enjoy, they are supposed to reveal weird frequencies allowing you to correct them.

Keep in mind that Yamaha never intended these speakers for studio use so they had no real clues as to what would become of this model. That they decided to cash in on the pro studio market may not have been that scientific of an endeavor. Hence I am inclined to err on the side of the units they made before the craze hit.

After all, the discovery of the NS10m as a studio monitor was purely serendipitous.

I mix on JBL LSR28P's, the older carbon-fiber baffles that were hard to make. No sub which tend to confuse. These have a nice stereo field with phantom image and are comparable to Genelecs which I don't really like. The JBL's have room compensation circuits so you can adjust the speakers for proximity to walls and other objects found at mix position. Listening for a phantom image is key and on pro released mixes, you can see that their mixes took that into consideration as well

Since I grew up listening to songs mixed on JBL's it was a natural to my ears.

Then since most people listen to music through a computer and/or earbuds, trying to mix for the large speaker systems people had normally in their homes, etc. is a thing of the past. You're better off final mixing for headphones than trying to produce a mix that will be played on large stereo speakers as no one really has those these days.

Hence several monitoring devices are needed to get in the ball park.

I would go with the older NS10m over the studio versions, if you can find them in good condition as those were the units that were discovered for use originally. It has something to do with the cone paper it is said. After a while Yamaha had problems getting the first batch of the white cones. But keep in mind the speaker is a sum of its parts. The crossover, the length/type of wire between the speaker and tweeter, the material of the cabinet. All has something to do with the end results.

No they are not made to be played loud so the better your listening environment is tamed then you won't need to blast these till the tweeter gives up the ghost. And if your listening mix position is not properly dialed in, things like phantom image won't appear no matter what speaker you use. Near-field, mid- field sure, but your ears are not near-field mid-field only. Your ears/brain are capable of telling where sound is coming from high low, left right, front back and degrees in between. It's a survival mechanism. So creating a proper studio listening/mix environment is key and can't be overstated.

I've found that these original units have a certain ambiance that only these speakers can create and if you mix enough tracks over different monitors you can sense this. And again it's not an ambiance of a good quality consumer listening speaker. By using the NS10m, you will notice the mix translates more evenly on other systems. And that is why they're still in many studios. And if you are into mixng often, you will learn to appreciate listening to mixes on these speakers from an engineer's pov.

In short the NS10m is an aiming device, a microscope if you will, not a playback pair of "handsome" speakers.

There are too many that do that well so no comparison.





Old 25th November 2015
  #47
I wonder if any of the new models from Yamaha, like the MSP Studio series, compare favorably.

You'd think that Yamaha, with all their resources could put another speaker that fulfills the same function on the market. I think it would have to be passive to allow people to use whatever amplifier they could afford and thus keep the price down on the speaker itself, since it seems that the NS10 enjoys masses of power (used with restraint!). Yamaha's excuse that they cannot find suitable paper and that's why they discontinued the NS10 rings a little hollow with me.

I would like to see a magnesium coned and domed version after viewing a Fostex demo of the advantages of magnesium:
https://youtu.be/wrdYofPYD4M?t=83
Old 25th November 2015
  #48
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dragonsound's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Russell Dawkins View Post
I wonder if any of the new models from Yamaha, like the MSP Studio series, compare favorably.

You'd think that Yamaha, with all their resources could put another speaker that fulfills the same function on the market. I think it would have to be passive to allow people to use whatever amplifier they could afford and thus keep the price down on the speaker itself, since it seems that the NS10 enjoys masses of power (used with restraint!). Yamaha's excuse that they cannot find suitable paper and that's why they discontinued the NS10 rings a little hollow with me.
I have a pair of the MSP5's and although they sound great for reproducing keyboard sounds, I've never found them useful for mixing and not even as a reference. Plus the small bass ports on the front are not what I'd consider something a mix monitor would need. When kick/bass pulses happen within a mix you get a bullet of air coming off those ports blowing in your face and any extraneous air fluxing in front of the sound coming off the speaker is bound to derail the main pulse of the speaker.



You don't want any air blowing across your monitors and coming in between the speaker and your ears.

The JBL LSR28P's have a bass port but it fires behind the speaker. The port also helps cool the amp which is the area with the fins.




Carbon fibre baffles discontinued because they could not make them fast and cost effective enough.

Note the corners are rounded to prevent sound reflecting off the corners in a comb filter.

Though not a perfect speaker it has enough features to work if you let them. They weigh 50 lbs. each so they anchor themselves wherever they sit, not being affected by its own cone movements.



The NS10m's are not light weight for their size at almost 14 lbs. each so they tend to anchor themselves well enough to not do acoustical work on the cabinet or dance around during playback.

For that matter the MSP5's are not light weight either for its size coming in at almost 18 lbs. each.

Yamaha has many irons in the fire and these companies tend to wait to buy up companies that make a better product so they can incorporate the designs that made them successful without violating patents.

Except for the NS10m series, there are no Yamaha monitor models that dominate the pro recording industry.

Tried and true seems to be the wiser approach as time in the studio costs money and wear and tear. Experimenting with unusual pieces is fun but not when you're watching the clock and dealing with artists who would rather have the tried and true who won't want to gamble with using other new-to-them units. Familiar is king!


As far as the paper for the cone being available, there are clones of the NS10 out there that claim to have nailed the sound but I don't see them taking over the pro studio market.

Does not mean that the MSP5 series can't be used for studio work, it's just not a go-to model.

Yamaha would be dominant in the musical instrument arena in music production, mainly keyboards, drums.


Old 2nd January 2016
  #49
Gear Maniac
I can tell you about my experience with NS-10Ms.
I was lucky to get a matched pair in great condition with the speaker mod to lift the woofer out of the box to defeat phase issues.
Run it with a yamaha P2201.

I was very very skeptical regarding the hype surrounding NS-10s but it is there for a reason, these boxes just tell you what is wrong with you mix.
It is very difficult to describe and I think it is not really the frequency response but transient response that make these speakers great.

In short summary:
These speakers tell you instantly if your mix is crowded, if it is punchy or not (I don't find that accurate reprduction of the "snappiness" of a mix in any other speaker I own), they tell you when your mix is thin and lacking and even so tell you when the bass is muddy and uncontrolled.
Comparing these speakers to any speaker with a ported design (bassreflex) is destined to fail imho.

They don't sound bad as most claim, at least mine don't. If you mix is good they sound ok to great, but if your mix is bad they indeed sound horrible.
You very soon develop the feel as that you can trust them in what they do, something I am missing from a lot of other speakers.
You need other speakers to reproduce the bass better but otherwise these are everything they proclaim.

If anyone says they suck big and are overrated I think that someone either never listened to real NS-10s, had bad Amps running along with it or just doesn't know ****.
Now I don't know how much the phase mod is responsible for what my NS-10 does.

Comparing MSP5 to it is nonsense as the MSP 5 is a ported design. It is a great speaker though.
I also know the HS50 and HS80 and also like them. They have a grainy clarity to them which ****s up your ears but will help you to mix but otherwise they sound nothing like NS-10s. I must congratulate Yamaha for having a quite ok transient-response even if it is a ported design.
Old 2nd January 2016
  #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BumBataa View Post
I can tell you about my experience with NS-10Ms.
I was lucky to get a matched pair in great condition with the speaker mod to lift the woofer out of the box to defeat phase issues.
Run it with a yamaha P2201.

I was very very skeptical regarding the hype surrounding NS-10s but it is there for a reason, these boxes just tell you what is wrong with you mix.
It is very difficult to describe and I think it is not really the frequency response but transient response that make these speakers great.

In short summary:
These speakers tell you instantly if your mix is crowded, if it is punchy or not (I don't find that accurate reprduction of the "snappiness" of a mix in any other speaker I own), they tell you when your mix is thin and lacking and even so tell you when the bass is muddy and uncontrolled.
Comparing these speakers to any speaker with a ported design (bassreflex) is destined to fail imho.

They don't sound bad as most claim, at least mine don't. If you mix is good they sound ok to great, but if your mix is bad they indeed sound horrible.
You very soon develop the feel as that you can trust them in what they do, something I am missing from a lot of other speakers.
You need other speakers to reproduce the bass better but otherwise these are everything they proclaim.

If anyone says they suck big and are overrated I think that someone either never listened to real NS-10s, had bad Amps running along with it or just doesn't know ****.
Now I don't know how much the phase mod is responsible for what my NS-10 does.

Comparing MSP5 to it is nonsense as the MSP 5 is a ported design. It is a great speaker though.
I also know the HS50 and HS80 and also like them. They have a grainy clarity to them which ****s up your ears but will help you to mix but otherwise they sound nothing like NS-10s. I must congratulate Yamaha for having a quite ok transient-response even if it is a ported design.
Good synopsis and choice of words. I find the same that the NS10's will tell you if your mix is "crowded."

And yes once you get used to listening to them in your environment you will learn where the mix errors are. Takes practice like anything else.

A good class amp is essential to make the NS10's do a good job.

What mod was done to your set? Can you explain?

Yes the MSP5 is a great well made speaker for keyboard monitoring or play-back for your flat screen watching movies, general listening.
Old 3rd January 2016
  #51
Gear Maniac
It is called time alignment ring..Friesecke, a german audio engineer, invented the idea back then.
This guy is quite a capacity so I guess he knew what he was doing, purpose was to defeat the phase issues of the original NS-10.
Now I don't know the regular NS-10 that good, only worked a lot with the modded ones.
Attached Thumbnails
Yamaha Ns10m &amp; Yamaha Ns10m STUDIO-pic2.jpg   Yamaha Ns10m &amp; Yamaha Ns10m STUDIO-pic1.jpg   Yamaha Ns10m &amp; Yamaha Ns10m STUDIO-bildschirmfoto-2016-01-03-um-13.34.05.png  
Old 3rd January 2016
  #52
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Very interesting! I expect those would have a profound effect on the sound of the speaker.

After a quick google I found this contact info for the inventor.

Price: approx. 25 EURO / Pair.

Vendor Contact:
Andreas Friesecke
Am Schulgarten 11
85662 Hohenbrunn
Germany/EU

E-Mail: friesecke (at) 42-dont-panic.de

Phone: +49-8102-7292 42
Fax: +49-8102-7292 43

From:
http://www.ns-10.net/2009/01/ns-10m-...eas-friesecke/
Old 3rd January 2016
  #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BumBataa View Post
It is called time alignment ring..Friesecke, a german audio engineer, invented the idea back then.
This guy is quite a capacity so I guess he knew what he was doing, purpose was to defeat the phase issues of the original NS-10.
Now I don't know the regular NS-10 that good, only worked a lot with the modded ones.
That is wild!



What was done was a time-alignment by advancing the position of the woofer the high freq sound of the tweeter which travels faster than lows gives the woofer time to catch up so that both sounds arrive at the ear at the same time at least that's the theory.





I'm now wondering if there are reflection issues with the extra bulk added to the box.

Would like to hear this mod at any rate.

Urie/JBL Time Aligns were a popular studio monitor but the dual concentric system is the way they went where the tweeter is in the center of the woofer. You may not notice that the blue horn has a foam edge that must defray some of the highs or cancel reflections (not sure which) to add to the time alignment or sonic clarity, again at least that was the thought back then. These are for soffit type long throw. Audiophiles these days buy these used for bookshelf speakers. Not cheap either.



These days with nearfields and smaller studios it's easier to slant the front baffle,


Old 3rd January 2016
  #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dragonsound View Post
I'm now wondering if there are reflection issues with the extra bulk added to the box.
I agree, reflections and changing the volume of the box will both have a significant impact on the sound.

Might be better, but in any case, different.
Old 3rd January 2016
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. Mordo View Post
I agree, reflections and changing the volume of the box will both have a significant impact on the sound.

Might be better, but in any case, different.
Glad you mentioned the volume change.
Old 3rd January 2016
  #56
Gear Maniac
Quite a few engineers in germany swear by that mod afaik but who knows..sorry I'm too lazy to un-mod them right now so I cannot compare.
I do know that I read a lot about phase issues in conjunction with the NS 10.
Reflections may very well happen, how that affects the sound is an interesting question indeed..
owners of the box know there is some space between woofer and tweeter left, it looks much closer to each other in that pic than real because of the perspective.

I have contacted that Friesecke guy, maybe he still has a few lying around but I highly doubt it. If so I may organize a shipping for anyone interested!
Old 4th January 2016
  #57
Gear Nut
I personally like the way they sound.

They are very quick and don't have quite as much harmonic distortion as most speakers.
As a result they are VERY transparent, you'll hear exactly whats going on.
Add in the fact that they seem to boost the frequencies that the human ear is most sensitive to, and you have a set of speakers that will not only show you what's wrong with your mix; they will rub it in your face and shout at you for it
Old 4th January 2016
  #58
One nit to pick on time-alignment - the highs don't travel "faster" then the lows, at least not in any significant fashion. The speed of sound in air is for our purposes a constant across the audible spectrum.

Aligning the drivers so that the point of emanation is in phase makes sense. It looks to me like the JBL/Urei coaxial speaker so this. The "aligned" NS-10s appear to put the woofer driver closer to the listener than the tweeter. Perhaps you get phase matching for one set of wavelengths.

Regardless, if the modded NS-10s sound better, great. I just don't know if they are truly aligned in phase.
Old 5th January 2016
  #59
Gear Maniac
True. Who knows if the response is any better, I don't know the comparison because I never ran them without the mod.
I contacted Friesecke, he still has a few of them lying around, you may contact him but I don't know if he is shipping to the US.
If not contact me, maybe I can help with it.

I would be really interested to see some scientific tests with and without the mod..
Old 19th February 2017
  #60
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Many of you guys, just over mystify. It's all about the history of close-field monitoring, and great story of the unit.
You can do 1000% with the same success on many other mid-priced sealed bookshelf speakers. And besides some good qualities (and white driver) for the end of 70's, like delivering a low frequency punch (that in its early days was't common from a loudspeaker of such a small size), easy to carry and good output compatibilities -it's juts another successor/ modern option for Auratone Sound Cube and earlier -crappy mono radio.
...And also this is prooves that time domain response is more important that frequency one!
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