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Looking for a budget condenser for male vocals
Old 21st May 2019
  #1
Here for the gear
 

Looking for a budget condenser for male vocals

I'm looking for a budget true LDC for vocals (primarily male, often just use a 57 for female) as I really need to upgrade from the 2020 and chinese crap I've been making do with.

Here's the kicker,
I've got a U87 impulse response (and/or EQ curve) for the Behringer B2 pro (106.60 USD), but not for anything else
The other mics I'm considering are the Studio Projects B3 (127.91 USD), Rode NT1 (137.54 USD used), ADK Vienna Mk8 (123.79 USD Used) or Jeanne Audio U87 copy (171.93 USD Used)
Ruled out the NT1-A for being overly bright and 2035 for reminding me of the 2020.

I have very limited information about the U87 clone and Vienna and would prefer to know more before I bought either.

For reference I'm in Australia and prices here are ****ed so I'm prettymuch limited to what's on thomann or the used market.

Anyone have any experience with these mics or suggestions for others to aid in my decision making?
Thanks for the help
Old 21st May 2019
  #2
Lives for gear
 

Mics are NOT gender specific and a mic is only part of a recording chain. how a mic performs with a specific preamp have cause vast differences in how a mic ultimately performs. Most mics have different frequency response curves and sensitivities which make some more suitable for one job over another.

Matching a mic to a specific voice is a whole different ball game however. You haven't posted a clip of your voice so people are clueless on what you sound like. It would be stupid to advise you on buying a mic based on words in a post. The ONLY way, to get a good match is to have a pro try your voice out on various mics till they fond one that produces the best results. I do this all the time when I have people come by to record. I first judge their speaking and singing voice in the open air, then I'll try out several mics to see what the results yield.

Its not always the frequency response either. You can always use an EQ and compressor missing and change the results afterwards. Sometimes its other things in the singers performance which will lead me to choose one mic over another. It may be their ability to pronounce specific words, pops esses, breathing etc. It may be the Guttural voice qualities of a rock voice presence and how that voice fits into a mix or even the genre of music that makes a difference.

One thing for sure, anybody advising you on what might be best for you on a gear forum is purely guessing what might be good for you and undoubtable basing it on their own experiences not yours. Sure they might recommend a mic that generically works well for most people, but for someone like myself, it would be a total waste of time. 90% of the mics made wouldn't be the ideal match for me. They might be passible, but never ideal. I'm to old to adapt my voice to a mic either. Its done changing and I'm not about to take vocal lessons to sing better at 60 years old.

Posting a vocal clip on line has its flaws too. The voice is tainted by the mic and gear used to post the clip and whatever speakers are used to play back the music. Then you have as many preferences as there are people. Having vastly greater choices of mic types doesn't help at all either. Just makes the quest to find the mic you need that much more difficult.

As they say you have to begin somewhere, and you seem to have tried some of the popular options.
You're likely find most LDC mics are going to be bright sounding. The reason being is they all have built in preamps and most will have the extended frequency response up to 20K. The thing is however brightness can be dialed back when mixing, so your main issue is when tracking. If you're like me who spent years using dynamic mics with a much lower frequency roll off plus feedback prevention you learnt to have a boosted high end when you sing live. When placed in front of an LDC that top end isn't influences by proximity. A dynamic mic becomes more midrange as you back off and the bass and treble drops.

What you likely need is a different set of headphones that don't have the typical loudness boost. Manufactures often give headphones a midrange scoop (or high and low boost) to make them sound larger then life. This can be deadly on recording headphones because you can back away form the mic by numbers of feet and still have too much top end. Even working your hardest to mask the highs may not be enough. Only fix is darker sounding headphones. How to find them is to try different sets out till you find an ideal match.

Its funny. Most musicians will try out dozens of different instruments, pedals and amps, speakers on a quest to find the tones that match their needs. For some reason they drop all that experience when looking for the ideal mic. Of course it can be expensive if you don't travel in circles where you can try different gear out. Manufactures frown on people trying out mics because of the obvious health concerns. Mics can be expensive too so making a wise choice should have some basis in fact.

The NT1 is dam near flat across the spectrum. Its NOT a bright sounding mic, its in fact about a neutral as you're going to get unless you find something that actually scoops out upper mids and rolls off the highs. My best guess is Your problem has little to do with the mics, its more likely your tracking headphones, Studio Monitors, recording environment or your ability to mix properly.





If you are like me however and are not a huge fan of a condenser mics bite then maybe you want to try a different mic type. I used to use the Sennheiser MD421 II mics back in the 80s for live and recording and they performed wonderfully on both for male and female vocals. Without a good preamp you're wasting your time however.

I bought well over 100 mics on my tone quest and after 45 years of searching found Ribbon mics to sound fantastic on my voice. U have powerful mids and highs form spending a lifetime singing through crappy PA systems and condensers are like fingernails on a chalk board to me. Ribbon mics give me the bottom end I need and roll the correct amount of highs and upper mids back.

Its amazing when I sing through one too. Its like I'm singing without a mic in front of me. Instead of having the boosted highs and presence I always thought made for a good sounding mic my voice sounds neutral as hell singing. When mixing I can shape the voice exactly the way I need it to sound.

It taught be two very important lessons too. The singer himself probably lacks good judgement deciding on what makes his voice sound most natural. Reason being is you hear half your tones through your skull. Just stick your fingers in your ears and you'll hear how much bass gets to your ears directly. Unskilled listeners are pretty useless in telling you what your voice needs too. They may know something isn't right be clueless on what your voice actually needs.

Again, pro at a studio can try out multiple mics and zero in on what works best in no time. Its worth the investment to rent a studio for an hour to try out some mics or even renting some mics to try out yourself. At worst, If they have a decent mic locker It can help you rule out some of the expensive mics that don't work for you too. Why spend high dollars on mics only to discover they were a poor choice for your specific voice.

Lastly, they will hear what they need to hear from you in order to get a great recording. You may have issues recording you simply need to deal with and become accustomed to. no one said recording is supposed to be comfortable, in fact, recording is a truth detector. many people don't recognize who they actually sound to a listener outside their body and even with the best gear, it can take decades getting comfortable hearing your own voice.
Attached Thumbnails
Looking for a budget condenser for male vocals-nt1.jpg  
Old 21st May 2019
  #3
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by wrgkmc View Post
Mics are NOT gender specific and a mic is only part of a recording chain. how a mic performs with a specific preamp have cause vast differences in how a mic ultimately performs. Most mics have different frequency response curves and sensitivities which make some more suitable for one job over another.

Matching a mic to a specific voice is a whole different ball game however. You haven't posted a clip of your voice so people are clueless on what you sound like. It would be stupid to advise you on buying a mic based on words in a post. The ONLY way, to get a good match is to have a pro try your voice out on various mics till they fond one that produces the best results. I do this all the time when I have people come by to record. I first judge their speaking and singing voice in the open air, then I'll try out several mics to see what the results yield.

Its not always the frequency response either. You can always use an EQ and compressor missing and change the results afterwards. Sometimes its other things in the singers performance which will lead me to choose one mic over another. It may be their ability to pronounce specific words, pops esses, breathing etc. It may be the Guttural voice qualities of a rock voice presence and how that voice fits into a mix or even the genre of music that makes a difference.

One thing for sure, anybody advising you on what might be best for you on a gear forum is purely guessing what might be good for you and undoubtable basing it on their own experiences not yours. Sure they might recommend a mic that generically works well for most people, but for someone like myself, it would be a total waste of time. 90% of the mics made wouldn't be the ideal match for me. They might be passible, but never ideal. I'm to old to adapt my voice to a mic either. Its done changing and I'm not about to take vocal lessons to sing better at 60 years old.

Posting a vocal clip on line has its flaws too. The voice is tainted by the mic and gear used to post the clip and whatever speakers are used to play back the music. Then you have as many preferences as there are people. Having vastly greater choices of mic types doesn't help at all either. Just makes the quest to find the mic you need that much more difficult.

As they say you have to begin somewhere, and you seem to have tried some of the popular options.
You're likely find most LDC mics are going to be bright sounding. The reason being is they all have built in preamps and most will have the extended frequency response up to 20K. The thing is however brightness can be dialed back when mixing, so your main issue is when tracking. If you're like me who spent years using dynamic mics with a much lower frequency roll off plus feedback prevention you learnt to have a boosted high end when you sing live. When placed in front of an LDC that top end isn't influences by proximity. A dynamic mic becomes more midrange as you back off and the bass and treble drops.

What you likely need is a different set of headphones that don't have the typical loudness boost. Manufactures often give headphones a midrange scoop (or high and low boost) to make them sound larger then life. This can be deadly on recording headphones because you can back away form the mic by numbers of feet and still have too much top end. Even working your hardest to mask the highs may not be enough. Only fix is darker sounding headphones. How to find them is to try different sets out till you find an ideal match.

Its funny. Most musicians will try out dozens of different instruments, pedals and amps, speakers on a quest to find the tones that match their needs. For some reason they drop all that experience when looking for the ideal mic. Of course it can be expensive if you don't travel in circles where you can try different gear out. Manufactures frown on people trying out mics because of the obvious health concerns. Mics can be expensive too so making a wise choice should have some basis in fact.

The NT1 is dam near flat across the spectrum. Its NOT a bright sounding mic, its in fact about a neutral as you're going to get unless you find something that actually scoops out upper mids and rolls off the highs. My best guess is Your problem has little to do with the mics, its more likely your tracking headphones, Studio Monitors, recording environment or your ability to mix properly.





If you are like me however and are not a huge fan of a condenser mics bite then maybe you want to try a different mic type. I used to use the Sennheiser MD421 II mics back in the 80s for live and recording and they performed wonderfully on both for male and female vocals. Without a good preamp you're wasting your time however.

I bought well over 100 mics on my tone quest and after 45 years of searching found Ribbon mics to sound fantastic on my voice. U have powerful mids and highs form spending a lifetime singing through crappy PA systems and condensers are like fingernails on a chalk board to me. Ribbon mics give me the bottom end I need and roll the correct amount of highs and upper mids back.

Its amazing when I sing through one too. Its like I'm singing without a mic in front of me. Instead of having the boosted highs and presence I always thought made for a good sounding mic my voice sounds neutral as hell singing. When mixing I can shape the voice exactly the way I need it to sound.

It taught be two very important lessons too. The singer himself probably lacks good judgement deciding on what makes his voice sound most natural. Reason being is you hear half your tones through your skull. Just stick your fingers in your ears and you'll hear how much bass gets to your ears directly. Unskilled listeners are pretty useless in telling you what your voice needs too. They may know something isn't right be clueless on what your voice actually needs.

Again, pro at a studio can try out multiple mics and zero in on what works best in no time. Its worth the investment to rent a studio for an hour to try out some mics or even renting some mics to try out yourself. At worst, If they have a decent mic locker It can help you rule out some of the expensive mics that don't work for you too. Why spend high dollars on mics only to discover they were a poor choice for your specific voice.

Lastly, they will hear what they need to hear from you in order to get a great recording. You may have issues recording you simply need to deal with and become accustomed to. no one said recording is supposed to be comfortable, in fact, recording is a truth detector. many people don't recognize who they actually sound to a listener outside their body and even with the best gear, it can take decades getting comfortable hearing your own voice.
If I remember correctly, there's more than one version of the NT1, and it's only the most recent version that's pretty flat. Older ones have a reputation for being very bright.

I no longer remember which models they were, but I've encountered three different large diaphragm Rode mics over the years, and every one of them was WAY too bright and airy for my tastes. I know one was the continuously variable pattern one, but I don't remember which models the other two were.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #4
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ebeowulf17 View Post
If I remember correctly, there's more than one version of the NT1, and it's only the most recent version that's pretty flat. Older ones have a reputation for being very bright.
.
Yes. Most used ones will be some version of the silver NT1A, of which I share your opinion... bright and harsh.

The Behringer B2? I would strongly recommend against believing a quality mic is simply an impulse curve that can be copied.

I’ve never heard of that particular Jeanne Audio 87 clone, but you have to be a rube at the county fair to believe you can buy any significant percentage of real 87 magic for a couple of hundred bucks.

The Studio Projects B3 is an OK mic, with no bad habits. I owned a pair for a few years. They always seemed to lack weight or heft on vocals, but are reasonably honest and well made.

The Vienna is interesting. I’ve never seen or used any ADK mics, and don’t know anyone who owns one. That’s a shot in the dark for me.

If you want to stay at or under $200, I’d buy a very good dynamic. I think an 835 ($100) usually records male and female voices much better than any budget condensers I’ve used.

If Chessparov comments on your thread, take him seriously. He takes budget mics VERY seriously and I’d buy a mic I hadn’t heard on his recommendation (which makes me the potential rube at the low budget fair, I guess).
Old 4 weeks ago
  #5
Here for the gear
 

So I just wrote a detailed reply and then the website decided to hang and not let me post it, I've lost that now so here's the dot point version.

Thing the 1st,
I bought the ADK before any of these replies were posted, for what it is at the 110 US I spent on it from everything I've seen (which is quite limited, I do admit) it absolutely blows away these other budget mics.

Reply the 1st,
You repeatedly reference the flat EQ of the NT1, as I said I am interested in the NT1 but discounted the NT1-A for being extremely bright.
I have a reasonably large mic cabinet (for someone who only records for fun) and have found tones I liked for almost every other source except male vocals (hence the thread), leading me to try and find the better mic based on the merits of the mic alone.
I'm a trained musician and have done my fair share of recordings/gigs, at least well enough to already understand what you've said so while I appreciate the long response it really didn't do anything for me.

Reply the 2nd,
Bushman, I couldn't find anything on the U87 clone either but might end up having to buy it just to see how it sounds. The B2 EQ correction/IR thing I found here and while there's a clear difference, I was amazed at how not-entirely-rubbish the B2 sounded. After going back and finding dry vocal examples from it however I really didn't like the tone, and while I have a fair amount of Behringer/Tannoy gear I don't know how much I'd trust the mic as far as build quality and longevity goes. I did end up just getting the ADK though after finding some (one single) dry audio samples and really loving it, will be sure to release more recordings so there's better resources available for future persons interested in the mic.

Thanks for the help and any future responses will be appreciated if anybody knows about the U87 clone or ADK mics, or even just wants to have a chat.
Mics on my list to try out next are the Samson C03, Studio Projects B3 and MXLv67
Old 4 weeks ago
  #6
Lives for gear
 

Thanks Bushman, for your kind words.

OK, I'm going to be "that guy" and ask the related perfunctory question to the OP...

How acoustically treated (or not), is your recording area?

Before we see that answer, I'm going to guess it's not, or very little-
like me with a SE Reflexion filter at home!. (My recording area at work, is much better BTW)

Getting the Sennheiser 835 as suggested by Bushman is an excellent suggestion, as it will complement your (brighter toned) ADK Vienna very well. In fact, I may buy an 835 (again) for myself eventually!

Of course I had to look up and found out that Front End Audio...
Is having a sale on the desirable "Custom Shop" ADK line, for under $600.
(Ah the dangers of research )

Chris
Old 4 weeks ago
  #7
Here for the gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by chessparov2.0 View Post
Thanks Bushman, for your kind words.

OK, I'm going to be "that guy" and ask the related perfunctory question to the OP...

How acoustically treated (or not), is your recording area?

Before we see that answer, I'm going to guess it's not, or very little-
like me with a SE Reflexion filter at home!. (My recording area at work, is much better BTW)

Getting the Sennheiser 835 as suggested by Bushman is an excellent suggestion, as it will complement your (brighter toned) ADK Vienna very well. In fact, I may buy an 835 (again) for myself eventually!

Of course I had to look up and found out that Front End Audio...
Is having a sale on the desirable "Custom Shop" ADK line, for under $600.
(Ah the dangers of research )

Chris
The reply is very much appreciated and I may just have to pick up an 835 on that recommendation.

My treatment basically consists of something functionally identical to the Reflexion and some basic acoustic panelling in the very few places where flat wall remains bare. Much like you I have constant access to far better treated locations with far more expensive gear but I'm honestly too lazy to deal with the inconvenience unless I have to record something really important. That and most of my recording are just while hanging out with friends, thinking of something and getting it down.

I am very glad that I never found that sale because my bank account tolerates enough gear buying as-is.

You seem reasonably knowledgeable about the Vienna, here's the hard question. Did I make the right choice? Is it actually the decent mic I've been lead to believe or have I bought another overly bright monstrosity.
I've found very limited information about the mic but am yet to hear someone say something negative about it. The Hamburg yes, but not the Vienna.

Thanks again for the advice,

Regards,
Chris
Old 4 weeks ago
  #8
Lives for gear
There are four threads that show up on GS if you search “ADK Vienna”. The responses tend to say the Vienna is on the bright side, and that was in comparison to the C12 and other mics that don't lack top end.
If you already bought the Vienna, the proof is literally in the mail. If you like the mic, you own it. If you don’t like it enough, you can sell it. At the price you paid, you may come out even or ahead.
Worst case, it lives in your mic locker in the hope that you will find a use for it. I have some of those (that I should have sold).
Old 4 weeks ago
  #9
Lives for gear
 

I going to write a very similar post, to Bushman's.

Just wanted to add...
If I understand it correctly, you've already tried your Vienna, and like it a lot. And that's great!

Keep in mind you only need one microphone for yourself (maybe one other choice for any friends).

Whereas a U87 is the standard Pro commercial choice, because it can always sound excellent (sometimes great) on anyone.

FWIW I sound best on vocal microphones, that are on the "dark side" (paging Darth Vader!) of neutral.
This is why my dream microphone to record on, is a 44 ribbon. A pristine tube 47 style microphone, is a close 2nd.
Chris
P.S. This is why, out of your original choices,
a (black) Rode NT1 would be best on me.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #10
Lives for gear
 

Since Bushman was connected to Motown,
he may already know this but...

I remember an AE writing that he tried an original vintage AKG C12, on Smokey's voice and it was SO wrong. (certainly didn't have the magic of a Neumann KM56) I bet they used one of the Neumann's (U87i/U67U47) for his 70's/80's solo recordings.

Does that make the C12, a bad microphone?
Rhetorical question, as it's one of thee true icons.

It's one of the "top ten" on me, since "the top end brightness" is way beyond my sibilance peak of 6500 Hertz. Wonderful bottom/top end on a C12.
(keep in mind I've "only" sung through the Bock, FLEA, and T-Funk versions).
Chris
Old 4 weeks ago
  #11
Lives for gear
We did a lot of Motown acts at Crystal in the 70s and early 80s. The first time I was at the studio to interview for a job, they had War (not a Motown act, I know) in a lockout, with the band stuff set to record, and in front of that a tall gobo cup with an 87 for vocals. The chain for most vocals was 87 to console to tape. No compression. That was the setup for Eddie Kendricks, Stevie (usually), Martha Reeves, The Miracles (after Smokey), various Jacksons, The Sylvers, and everybody else I can’t remember at this moment. With the exception of John Fishback, most engineers I saw weren’t trying different mics on vocals. At that studio the 87 was the vocal mic. I know that wasn’t true at every studio, but it strikes me that with all the outside engineers who came through there, I don’t remember that we ever struck an 87 and put up a different mic.
Edit: And I meant to say that although Smokey was at the studio many times as a Motown executive, he didn’t record anything at that studio while I was there.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #12
Lives for gear
 

I really appreciate the detailed post, fascinating stuff!

BTW through the combined weight of Pro opinion-and listening to that era's vocals...

I do believe the vintage U87's, are generally superior (smoother) to the modern U87ai.
Chris
Old 4 weeks ago
  #13
Lives for gear
I suggest looking at Advanced Audio. If that's too much, look at Warbler. But thats the china stuff you are trying to get away from. Look at Sony C38, C48, C450, New HD mics. Same off axis quality as neuman, but a different voicing. German vs Japan sound.

A mic with a good transformer or tube will sound better on low end (Sub $400/channel) preamp.
Mic's without transformers or tubes will be effected more by the preamp quality.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #14
Lives for gear
 

I shy away from the Sony's, as their "Customer Service", can be a oxymoron. Neumann for example, is much more on top of things.

Excellent post otherwise IMHO.
Chris
Old 4 weeks ago
  #15
Gear Head
I'd consider adding a Rode M2 into that mix (especially if you're in Australia). I got an NT1, and while it's an upgrade on what I had & not bright like an NT-1A, it wasn't really working for me because I missed having a handheld. I've been happier with the M2, which is cheap new & even cheaper as a used eBay bargain.

If you're in Australia, that price for a used NT1 is too much. I got my NT1-Kit brand new with shockmount for not much more. I generally try Store DJ / Mannys, and if you buy through their eBay store, eBay will regularly have 10%+ discounts if you click through to the actual listing.

I don't think Jeanne Audio are still around, their website has gone. I spent a long time looking at their JA-87F too, but never tried it.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #16
Gear Addict
Quote:
Originally Posted by imdasloth View Post
So I just wrote a detailed reply and then the website decided to hang and not let me post it, I've lost that now so here's the dot point version.

Thing the 1st,
I bought the ADK before any of these replies were posted, for what it is at the 110 US I spent on it from everything I've seen (which is quite limited, I do admit) it absolutely blows away these other budget mics.

Reply the 1st,
You repeatedly reference the flat EQ of the NT1, as I said I am interested in the NT1 but discounted the NT1-A for being extremely bright.
I have a reasonably large mic cabinet (for someone who only records for fun) and have found tones I liked for almost every other source except male vocals (hence the thread), leading me to try and find the better mic based on the merits of the mic alone.
I'm a trained musician and have done my fair share of recordings/gigs, at least well enough to already understand what you've said so while I appreciate the long response it really didn't do anything for me.

Reply the 2nd,
Bushman, I couldn't find anything on the U87 clone either but might end up having to buy it just to see how it sounds. The B2 EQ correction/IR thing I found here and while there's a clear difference, I was amazed at how not-entirely-rubbish the B2 sounded. After going back and finding dry vocal examples from it however I really didn't like the tone, and while I have a fair amount of Behringer/Tannoy gear I don't know how much I'd trust the mic as far as build quality and longevity goes. I did end up just getting the ADK though after finding some (one single) dry audio samples and really loving it, will be sure to release more recordings so there's better resources available for future persons interested in the mic.

Thanks for the help and any future responses will be appreciated if anybody knows about the U87 clone or ADK mics, or even just wants to have a chat.
Mics on my list to try out next are the Samson C03, Studio Projects B3 and MXLv67
The Samson C03 is a small/medium diaphragm electret condenser. You might want to look at the proper LDCs Samson has on the way.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #17
I would suggest the Roswell mini K47. He has a great line of microphones in varying price ranges, the Mini K47 is an outstanding microphone for the price, worth consideration.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #18
Lives for gear
 
MarkF48's Avatar
ADK makes very good and well built mics. I have both the Vienna and Hamburg in my collection and they work well on my voice. Can't say the Vienna has seemed on the 'bright side' to me. I also have the Rode NT1 (grey body) and would likely pick one of the ADK's for vocals before the NT1.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #19
Lives for gear
 
hbphotoav's Avatar
 

As an early adopter (two "original" NT1 in 1999 or so; and a NT1A in 2004) I can say that, in my experience, the main problem with the NT1/1A was the headbasket. Michael Joly addressed that problem several years ago, and the more "open" (more like a U87) headbasket design made a world of difference, especially coupled with the K47 capsule mod. That's a mic I use regularly these days (a bit more "mojo" than my TLM193s)... unfortunately, JolyMod closed down last year.

O.P. - See if you can scare up a JolyMod NT1A for a listen. I love mine of vocals and percussion overhead. Not nearly as "spitty" as the original design, but just as quiet. Here's a review... https://reverb.com/item/3420391-rode...ctavamod-2010s

YMMV. This worked for me.

HB
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