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Best digital mixer for recording and live use under $3000
Old 3rd June 2019
  #31
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It is a little ungainly but worth an additional post. The M32 is the one definitely over the X32.
Old 4th June 2019
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bstapper View Post
If the focus is for recording, as much as live sound, keep in mind that the M32 will be noticeably quieter. Not that you can't operate just fine with the X32, only that if recording is your focus I highly recommend spending a little more and going with the Midas version.

Cheers,
Brock
Or get an x32 rack and a midas stage box (which is what I use), the midas stagebox made a big difference. The x32 sounds really good but the midas preamps are even better.
Old 5th June 2019
  #33
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I think after hearing everyone’s opinions and watching a few YouTube videos that I’m going to buy the Midas M32R. Seems like a great choice for both live and studio applications. Question though.. if Midas designs the pres on the X32 are they technically NOT Midas preamps then? I take it then that the Midas pres are quieter and sound Better than the ones on the X32.
Last question/comment... Can I expect the sound card/converters on the Midas to be better than the ones on the X32? At first I was going to buy the x32 producer then I began leaning towards the x32 compact but after seeing the Midas M32 live and realizing that it would make a great centerpiece for my studio and and hearing everyone’s opinion on it , it looks like this might be the one. So does anyone happen to know if the Midas converters are any better than the converters in the X32? That would really help me make up my mind. Thanks
Old 5th June 2019
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vientos00 View Post
I think after hearing everyone’s opinions and watching a few YouTube videos that I’m going to buy the Midas M32R. Seems like a great choice for both live and studio applications. Question though.. if Midas designs the pres on the X32 are they technically NOT Midas preamps then? I take it then that the Midas pres are quieter and sound Better than the ones on the X32.
Last question/comment... Can I expect the sound card/converters on the Midas to be better than the ones on the X32? At first I was going to buy the x32 producer then I began leaning towards the x32 compact but after seeing the Midas M32 live and realizing that it would make a great centerpiece for my studio and and hearing everyone’s opinion on it , it looks like this might be the one. So does anyone happen to know if the Midas converters are any better than the converters in the X32? That would really help me make up my mind. Thanks
Conversion is identical.

The designation of "Midas Preamps" only goes so far - the specs and performance are what matters and for what you are doing the noise floor will add up. While the X32 is no slouch, the Midas is just dead quiet.

Depending on who you ask the power supply in the Midas is more robust - I personally think they are identical. I do believe there are some goodies in effects land that are exclusive to the Midas but I could be mistaken there as well.

so you could argue about the debatable differences in build quality, but in my opinion the only real difference is the noise floor. But I believe that a big enough difference to justify the extra cost.

Hope this helps,
Brock
Old 5th June 2019
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vientos00 View Post
I think after hearing everyone’s opinions and watching a few YouTube videos that I’m going to buy the Midas M32R. Seems like a great choice for both live and studio applications. Question though.. if Midas designs the pres on the X32 are they technically NOT Midas preamps then? I take it then that the Midas pres are quieter and sound Better than the ones on the X32.
Last question/comment... Can I expect the sound card/converters on the Midas to be better than the ones on the X32?
Behringer/Music group owns Midas. Midas had a staff of awesome electronic engineers and designers in Manchester. They all work for music group now.

Music group also owns a brand new state of the art Manufacturing facility in China where both the M32 and X32 in all it's flavors are made.

I have logged many thousands of hours probably 10,000 or more on various X32 flavors, and several hundred on an M32.

I am pretty sure that the only difference between the two is the Pre amps being slightly better on the M32, everything else is the same with the possible exception of the internal CPU being more powerful on the M32. Having said that the internal CPU on tne X32 is robust and does alot, it just seems that on the M32 it was a touch faster but it could be the firmware as its slightly different.

The pres on the X32 are still very nice, the midas ones are slightly better. That difference was not worth the money for me and what I do, but maybe for others. I only use mine in studio for hardware synths amd drum machines. If I was using a lot of mics, and could afford it I would proably get some flavor of Midas

As far as I can tell the effects and everything else are the same, the two units just have slightly different firmware.

The effects are very very good, as are the EQs, Gate, and compression on each channel
Old 5th June 2019
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bstapper View Post
... but in my opinion the only real difference is the noise floor. But I believe that a big enough difference to justify the extra cost.
...
I have some graphs/screenshots in my website articles that show the noise floor differences between the X32 and M32 preamps (and also a few other preamps).
Old 5th June 2019
  #37
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So the noise floor is the biggest difference here right? I’m mostly going to be recording live drums through the console and using it for live gigs.ill still be recording the main instruments and vocals through my Duet 2 which is great in sound quality. Knowing that I will only be recording drums through the console, and using it for live gigs should I still shell out the extra grand on the Midas? I saw a cool video where the guy was using his Midas as a controller also basically controlling his whole studio workflow through it.i guess the x32 could still do the same thing? Wondering if the noise floor itself is worth the extra cash for just recording drums.
Old 6th June 2019
  #38
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Originally Posted by vientos00 View Post
... Wondering if the noise floor itself is worth the extra cash for just recording drums.
I love the fact that drums free me from worrying about mic sensitivity and preamp gain. For example, I regularly use ribbon microphones when recording drums. A ribbon on a snare needs in the range of 12dB-to-15-dB of gain for tracking.

The two immediate observations are that we're not straining to hear subtle stuff over a noise floor. Whereas you'd have to be aware/concerned about noise issues when running 55dB of gain to record a fingerpicked acoustic at 3-feet, drums have none of those issues.

The overhead ribbons need 30dB-to-35dB for the drums, and all is well. At the other end of the scale, if substituted the Aston Starlight microphones as overheads, the Starlights would give 'overs' when using that same 30-35dB gain.

I'm just offering all this info so you can get some perspective on what when an where differing characteristics become important. I had an X32 in the studio doing the same work that the M32 does today. It may still appear in some of the older Gallery pictures on my website.

Drums were *not* in the calculation of my decision to change between the two products, and if I had to swap in an X32 today, I could do it without missing a beat. (sorry for the pun).
Old 7th June 2019
  #39
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So Media Gary, what is your take on the M32 vs the X32 as far as recording goes? Last night I decided that the M32 is probably going to be the winner for me.
I heard a vocal track that was recorded on both mixers and the difference in sound to me was pretty clear. The x32 sounded a bit more fizzy on the s’s. A bit thin and harsh.
While the M32 was much more natural sounding. Definitely warmer and more natural. That was clear on just one single track. As more tracks are stacked and added I’m assuming the difference will be more noticeable. Especially after hearing other people say that the noise floor is higher on the x32. That and i also found an article showing that the converters in the m32 are of higher quality than the x32. While drums are my main concern, if I can get as good a vocals and instrument recording on the m32 as I could with a Duet 2, I would just as easily record my vocals and instruments through the M32 instead of switching interfaces to the Duet trying to get a better sound. At least at first anyway. I just have doubts considering that the M32 could sound just as good as a Duet. If I’m wrong that’s a good thing cause I would no longer need the Duet. After hearing the 2 right now my ears are convinced that the m32 will give me a better better drum mix and overall mix than the x32 can. After hearing the M32 I am actually getting excited. I’ve always mixed in the box. I would love to hear what kind of mix I could get from the M32 mixing it in the desk itself. Anyone else hear the differences in sound vs the 2 mixers also? By the way I’m not saying that the x32 sounds harsh, just that the M32 sounds much more natural. Opinions?
Old 7th June 2019
  #40
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Originally Posted by vientos00 View Post
... Especially after hearing other people say that the noise floor is higher on the x32. That and i also found an article showing that the converters in the m32 are of higher quality than the x32. While drums are my main concern, if I can get as good a vocals and instrument recording on the m32 as I could with a Duet 2, I would just as easily record my vocals and instruments through the M32 instead of switching interfaces to the Duet trying to get a better sound. At least at first anyway. I just have doubts considering that the M32 could sound just as good as a Duet. If I’m wrong that’s a good thing cause I would no longer need the Duet. After hearing the 2 right now my ears are convinced that the m32 will give me a better better drum mix and overall mix than the x32 can. After hearing the M32 I am actually getting excited. I’ve always mixed in the box. I would love to hear what kind of mix I could get from the M32 mixing it in the desk itself. ....
The X32 and M32 use the same A/D converters. The D/A converters of the M32 have superior low output impedance. Send me a link to the article that you read. I have a feeling that you skipped over some of the 10,000 words I wrote about the X32 and M32.

Once you're comparing products like the Duet and the M32, you're in a game of inches where any little thing can move your preference. I was happy with my X32 and I'm happy with my M32, so I don't have to denigrate one to improve the pleasure and comfort of my choice. I frequently visit a good friend of mine who uses an Apogee Quartet as part of his studio. I never have any particular responses to quality differences there compared to my M32.

As for mixing ITB versus in the M32, that's something I played around with for a bit, but simply preferred the convenience of working ITB. I use the effects in the M32 are for the benefit of the musician/performers. I can adjust the EQ of their headphone mix, and apply some reverb or compression to their mix, and still capture the pure untouched preamp sound into the DAW. The big value is in signal routing: I have four pairs of speakers, a dozen headphones, and several external preamps, synths, and of course microphones connected through the M32.

The Mackie emulation is really handy for balancing the mess of tracks for the initial mix of stuff I bring home from a live performance. After that, I rarely draw automation using the M32, but it's nice to know that capability is there.
Old 7th June 2019
  #41
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The difference in the midas preamps as compared to the behringer is very noticeable. They are different designs, not the same design with better parts. If you search online someone had a post with pictures of the inside of the s16 and dl16 stageboxes.

Anyway, I don't regret getting the midas stagebox, it was a noticeable sound upgrade on the live and recording environment. I plug my lunchbox preamps into the x32 though and have no issues with the sound there. And the x32 doesn't sound bad by any stretch, so I'm definitely not slagging on the x32.
Old 7th June 2019
  #42
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Oh ok I get it..so the X32 with the Midas stage box will essentially give me the sound of the Midas board? That’s actually pretty cool considering that the x32 producer is only a grand and the stage box is $125. I’m hoping that the converters are the same but this is what I read ....’’MIDAS in January 2014 introduced their innovative console M32. It is very much similar to Behringer X32 digital mixer. X32 is highly successful in the industry. Midas M32 shared most of the operating system. However, microphone preamps are the ~same as they used in MIDAS Pro series digital mixers. On the other hand, Behringer X32 uses preamps that are designed by MIDAS but are somewhat different. M32 preamps use 96Khz and X32 preamps use 48Khz. M32 uses MIDAS’ own 8-channel A/D converter. X32 uses Cirrus Logic A/D converters. 8-channel A/D converter branded MIDAS-8000 delivers better-performing numbers.’’
Not sure if that’s accurate or not, I will include a link to the article. So another question... If I do get the X32 and the Midas stage box with the Midas pre’s will that also alleviate the noise floor issue also and make the x32 “Dead quiet’’ as earlier describes by someone hear? Or is that a converter issue?
I sorry for all of the questions but it’s a difference between a 1200 to 1300 buy and a 2300 buy so im trying to get as much feedback and info that I can.
So do you think that the Stagebox will improve the sound quality AND noise floor on the X32? Can anyone chime in? Thanks

Article in question-
https://churchsoundtips.com/midasm32-behringerx32/
Old 7th June 2019
  #43
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Yes, the noise floor will be reduced if utilizing the Midas stage box.
Old 7th June 2019
  #44
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Ouch! I just saw the prices for the Midas DL16 stagebox and they run for about a Grand. At that price I might as well just get the M32. It would be the same price as buying the x32 and a stagebox. Then again I could just buy the x32 now, and order the stagebox once I’m done paying it. Anyway, still though, would love to hear your thoughts about the converter differences and the noise floor difference once the stagebox is added to the X32. I’m going to try and buy one 0f the two ny this Monday,hopefully lol.
Old 7th June 2019
  #45
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Oh cool! So the Midas stagebox will improve the noise floor. Cool. It’s nice to know that I can buy the X32 first if I have to,then purchase the stagebox a little later to spread out the payments. Especially if I’m just using the X32 for drums and Duet 2 for vocals. Plus it’s a bit more portable than the Midas right?
I think I’m going to try and buy the Midas first but if that plan goes south then I can do the X32 then buy the stagebox at a Later date.
Lots to think about...
Old 7th June 2019
  #46
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Is the x32 producer the same as the x32 compact just smaller? Just thinking about it Incase I decide to go that route with a Stagebox
Old 7th June 2019
  #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vientos00 View Post
Is the x32 producer the same as the x32 compact just smaller? Just thinking about it Incase I decide to go that route with a Stagebox
Pretty much.

You might also want to check out getting an X32 rack instead, and an X-Touch Controller.

That's what I did. It allows you to rack mount the mixer and all its i/o so you dont have a mess of cables everywhere. The X-Touch has the same motorized faders, scribble strips etc in a much neater package.

All you have is a single cable then connecting the two. So you get basically the same functionality in a much smaller and neater desktop package.

The X-Touch can also pull double duty as a fantastic DAW controller.
Old 7th June 2019
  #48
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Originally Posted by vientos00 View Post
Is the x32 producer the same as the x32 compact just smaller? Just thinking about it Incase I decide to go that route with a Stagebox
Yes, the Producer and the Compact only have small differences:
- The AES/EBU output is on the Compact rear panel
- 12v lamp output is on the Compact rear panel
- Compact has dedicated a array of Mute Group and MIDI Assign buttons

I also agree with @ grasspike that the X32 Rack is the preferred packaging for traveling to/from gigs, and especially handy when enhanced with the convenience of the X-Touch if you aren't using a tablet.
Old 7th June 2019
  #49
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Originally Posted by vientos00 View Post
.... X32 is highly successful in the industry. Midas M32 shared most of the operating system. However, microphone preamps are the ~same as they used in MIDAS Pro series digital mixers. On the other hand, Behringer X32 uses preamps that are designed by MIDAS but are somewhat different. M32 preamps use 96Khz and X32 preamps use 48Khz. M32 uses MIDAS’ own 8-channel A/D converter. X32 uses Cirrus Logic A/D converters. 8-channel A/D converter branded MIDAS-8000 delivers better-performing numbers.’’....

Article in question-
https://churchsoundtips.com/midasm32-behringerx32/
Thanks for the link.
I am sad to say that the article was written by someone who was re-formatting a bunch of press release and marketing statements in order to build an article. There was also a distinct lack of numerical data when offering guidance about the relative strengths of the two products.

Most importantly, I can't find a single place to back up the assertion that there are M-8000 converters in the M32. I opened my Midas DL151 when I had it, and the circuit boards had the same modules as used in the console models of the M32. Those modules use the CS5368 A/D converters. There are different preamp modules for the X32, but they also use the CS5368 converters.

As for 96kHz, only the Pro Series of Midas products run at 96k. There was some early-on marketing hype about the M32 getting 96k, but it never happened. The config files from an X32 and an M32 can be directly exchanged with one another, and the firmware version 3.09 is the current. I am not sure why the article decided to mention the V2.0 firmware. That's another reason I think it was simply re-hashing available boilerplate.

Nevertheless, what makes all of this fun is going back to the summer of 2012 when I was first made aware of the X32. It's interesting to read all the Gearslutz negativity about sound quality and reliability that had dogged the old Behringer products, and clouded the expectations for the X32. I was skeptical too, but a buddy convinced me to try it out, and I'm very glad I did.

Hmm...I have also found that a lot of the formatting in my articles is broken now. Gotta fix that. Let us know what you decide.

Last edited by MediaGary; 7th June 2019 at 08:14 PM.. Reason: grammar
Old 8th June 2019
  #50
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Good to know. So the main difference in sound would be the preamps and not the conversion. The X:2 producer seems much more portable for live gigs. But the price difference between the x32 with a stagebox and the M32 alone isn’t that far between. Looks like I have more thinking to do. We’re only playing live once or twice a month and I like it that way cause like a lot of you I have a full time job. So it would be for mostly recording , and some shows.
Old 8th June 2019
  #51
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Originally Posted by vientos00 View Post
Fold back- So your saying that the X32 for recording drums straight into a Mac isn’t a super step down from using a decent apogee interface? I’m curious about this cause I’m thinking about getting the x32 for recording drums straight into my Mac, and using the Duet 2 for single track jobs like vocals, guitar, bass ect. If I do this, will the drums sound on par with the single tracks recorded through the Duet? If they will I’m on board. I just don’t want to have the conversion quality lacking in the drums while the vocals and stuff sound super clear and clean. I was thinking about getting the element just for everything, but if I do that than I won’t have a decent mixer for live gigs. But if the x32 sounds as good as you say for recording drums straight to my Mac, then this might be the solution. How difficult is it to record using the x32 straight to Logic Pro X? Is it as easy as plug in the usb 3 connection , have the iMac recognize it like any other interface, and just add tracks on the software like any other interface or do I need to buy any other accessories for this task. I’m thinking about buying the X32 as soon as next week so any more info you have will be helpful.
Yes, you've basically got it. The X-32 preamps route directly to the USB card which feeds the Mac. When you're not in record, the Mac feeds the audio back to the X-32 channels for mixing.

BTW you don't need usb-3, the X32 is USB 2. I was using the original Firewire also on my older Mac Pro, it worked fine. Now I have an X-Live card in both my X-32 mixers.

Also, you can use Midas brand external converter boxes on an X-32 AES-50 system. The headend and control is all identical. I only mention this for those who swear the Midas converters are quieter or better in some way that is not revealed by the dynamic range or distortion specifications of the M-32 and X-32.

My other converter box is the Apogee Symphony II, arguably one of the finest converter systems ever assembled, massive dynamic range, incredible low noise performance and headroom out to +24. The headphone amp on this thing makes Sennhesier HD600 headphones sound like they're from another planet GOOD!

I'm working on some live to 2-track recordings using the X-32 and the Symphony system simultaneously, in my early tests I can say you'd be hard pressed to tell which recording was done on which system, they both sound very good.

Good music to you!
Old 13th June 2019
  #52
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Wow! Your saying that your symphony compared to the x32 recordings were hard to tell apart? That’s crazy! Not in a bad way. Especially if my main recording tasks for it will primarily be drums. At this point it just comes down to price. If I can get the Midas at a lower monthly payment than the x32”s 3 payments of 400 Than I will.
My wife and I are going to try for a baby soon so the deal is that before that happens , I’m upgrading my recording equipment. I’m definitely buying the Warm audio 251, a new 27 inch imac, and either the Midas, the X32, or the Apogee Element 88. While I’m sure that the element 88 will not disappoint I’m hoping that the x32 or m32 sound as good as you say and it sounds as good as the symphony , than it’s a no brainer. Also , for some reason clients get all crazy and excited when they see a big board,or console. They have no idea what converters or micpres are or what they do but they see a huge mixier and automatically think to themselves, ‘’this guy knows what he’s doing’’ or ‘’now this is a real good recording studio’’ lol
Old 17th June 2019
  #53
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I’ll be making my decision in 2 weeks . I’ll let you guys know which one I bought and upload some recordings once it arrives and I’ve had time to get to know the unit.
Old 17th June 2019
  #54
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Hey everyone, what about the Midas MR18? I hear the usb interface can be switched from 2x2 to 18x18 interface which will give me more than enough channels for recording. While I went have “real” faders, I can still use it for live applications. My question is does it use the same converters and preamps as the Midas board/M32?
If it does, for $900it seems like i a winner. Any info in this one?
Old 17th June 2019
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vientos00 View Post
Wow! Your saying that your symphony compared to the x32 recordings were hard to tell apart? That’s crazy! Not in a bad way. Especially if my main recording tasks for it will primarily be drums. At this point it just comes down to price. If I can get the Midas at a lower monthly payment than the x32”s 3 payments of 400 Than I will.
My wife and I are going to try for a baby soon so the deal is that before that happens , I’m upgrading my recording equipment. I’m definitely buying the Warm audio 251, a new 27 inch imac, and either the Midas, the X32, or the Apogee Element 88. While I’m sure that the element 88 will not disappoint I’m hoping that the x32 or m32 sound as good as you say and it sounds as good as the symphony , than it’s a no brainer. Also , for some reason clients get all crazy and excited when they see a big board,or console. They have no idea what converters or micpres are or what they do but they see a huge mixier and automatically think to themselves, ‘’this guy knows what he’s doing’’ or ‘’now this is a real good recording studio’’ lol
i'd be a bit more careful when it comes to comparing: while it's true than most newer digital gear sounds quite amazing to what could be achieved spending the same amount of money using analog gear, a better way to compare recordings would be if mic signals get split using a splitbox, signals going to two entirely separate systems and then switching between those two systems upon playback; a proper a/b/x test wouldn't hurt either...

while my dm1000 with external ad8hr mic pres still sounds very good (and got used on hundrets of recordings/is still in use as a backup system on smaller projects), the few times it got compared with my newer, larger and way more expensive setup, anyone hearing the playback could easily tell the difference (and no one liked results from the smaller/older rig better) - things often become more evident if using many channels and/or with mics on more delicate sound sources.

i suggest you should spent enough on room treatment, get (or rent) the best mics you can afford for your recording projects, same for mic pres (and maybe converters) and decide on functionality and suitability/workflow what desk to get... - try/rent before you buy!

but more importantly: all the best to you, hopefully soon to become dad, and your family!

Last edited by deedeeyeah; 17th June 2019 at 11:55 AM.. Reason: typo
Old 17th June 2019
  #56
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Originally Posted by vientos00 View Post
Hey everyone, what about the Midas MR18? ... Any info in this one?
In addition the M32 in my studio, I use an MR18 for remote recording. Here's a link to a GS post that has a couple of pictures of my remote setup.
[ Why are Cat5 "snakes" so expensive? ]

Yes, you get the same quality from M32 and MR18.
Old 18th June 2019
  #57
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Awesome! The Mr18 might be the best thing for me then. We’ll see. I spoke with my brother today and he is the co owner of our band. He feels that we don’t really need a mixer upgrade right now cause we don’t play all of the time and he is happy with our 15 year old mackie mixer lol, so he is ok with me just getting what I need for my studio needs as opposed to having one board for both live and recording use. Still though that M32 looks nice :D
Old 18th June 2019
  #58
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After much thinking it looks like I’m buying the MR18. Being able to use my iPad to control the faders and routing make this thing super convenient especially when worrying about some drunk spilling they’re open cup on our mixer at a house party. And for this price, it’s just perfect. I also previewed the software. The emulations looks promising. Can anyone comment on how they sound, I’m especially curious wondering how the 1176 and pulltech emus sound. Thank you everyone for helping me find the right piece of gear for my needs. This one here looks like the winner for me. Plus I’ll still have enough cash to buy myself a warm audio 251 mic also. This MR 18 looks very very promising. Especially if it sounds exactly like the Midas board.its a home run if it does. Any comments on this unit and or the effects it has?
Old 18th June 2019
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vientos00 View Post
Can anyone comment on how they sound, I’m especially curious wondering how the 1176 and pulltech emus sound
The 1176 emulation is called the "Ultimo Compressor" in the mixer It is one of my favorite effects. Works and sounds great. You can run it in a Stereo or dual mono configuration. I use it all the time

I often use it as an insert on the main outputs

The Pultec EQ's are also some of my favorite go to effects.

If the built in effects were sold as plug ins for a DAW they would easily sell for more money than the mixer costs.

The M18 is also a fine choice, if you find you need faders you can always add an X-Touch to your setup. I use one with my X32 rack. I can't say enough good things about it.
Old 20th June 2019
  #60
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Ok so as soon as I think that I know what I want I read something else lol. One more question... how does the Mr18 com-are with the Allen and heath Qu sb Series .Basically the equivalent of the Mr 18 but the Allen and heath version. Both look pretty great for live use but what about recording quality? Anyone?
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