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Why hasn't a company made a modern 8 to 12 track tape recorder?
Old 4 weeks ago
  #1081
Lives for gear
Same reason why people don't get around on horse and buggy. Tape editing is slow and cumbersome
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Old 4 weeks ago
  #1082
Lives for gear
Same reason people don't get around on horse and buggy
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Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #1083
Gear Head
 

How misleading and completely wrong
Just walk into your studio turn on your gear and press record or play!
simple as if you know your material..

Pounamu


Quote:
Originally Posted by Voyage.One View Post
Same reason people don't get around on horse and buggy
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Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #1084
Gear Guru
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by rmgatl View Post
Yes I recall they did some noise reduction and eq to make it decent,
Actually, it took five mastering engineers.

Five.

Quote:
but still retain original raw quality that studio version lacked. .
Have you heard the studio version?

My reading indicated that it was never released and is locked up in a vault somewhere. If you have a link to it, I would be interested to compare. Interviews with Max Weinberg and other members of the E Street Band (that I read in research for a GS debate!) seem to all agree that the studio version was "incredible".
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Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #1085
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Voyage.One View Post
Same reason people don't get around on horse and buggy
Like the manual typewriter and 78rpm turntable examples that supposedly no longer exist. . . these are also still in production.

https://hartlandcarriages.co.uk
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Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #1086
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by newguy1 View Post
Like the manual typewriter and 78rpm turntable examples that supposedly no longer exist. . . these are also still in production.

https://hartlandcarriages.co.uk
Ask them if they will build you one for $700 and they will laugh at your foolishness

Pretty much the same way many here understand the foolishness in your idiotic defense of the magic $700 multitrack tape machine.
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Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #1087
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by JLast View Post
Ask them if they will build you one for $700 and they will laugh at your foolishness

Pretty much the same way many here understand the foolishness in your idiotic defense of the magic $700 multitrack tape machine.
"Magic $700 multitrack tape machine" huh. "Idiotic," "foolishness," "foolishness" again.

If this isn't a troll, then your lack of self awareness is astounding. Please re-read post #1073 .
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Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #1088
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by joeq View Post
Actually, it took five mastering engineers.

Five.


Have you heard the studio version?

My reading indicated that it was never released and is locked up in a vault somewhere. If you have a link to it, I would be interested to compare. Interviews with Max Weinberg and other members of the E Street Band (that I read in research for a GS debate!) seem to all agree that the studio version was "incredible".
By ‘some’ I referred to the impact, not level of effort which apparently was a lot. Was just supposed to be a demo tape but they liked the demo better than the studio versions at that time, maybe they preferred something done in studio later, but no I never heard it. To me the album captured a raw quality that worked for that set of tracks at that instant in time. Bruce didn’t know it would work, it just did, happy accident. Helps that the instrumentation is so simple, acoustic guitar and harmonica. I’ve pulled out tape stuff I did 30 years ago and it just makes me want to start over vs nostalgia about how great it was. All I hear is bad digital piano, bad romplers, really bad fake strings, tape noise, borderline mix/mastering. But clients bought it at the time, so good enough. It was just so much more work than itb. Back to op, I obviously don’t see going back to multitrack cassettes...I could create, finance and operate such a venture (EE, MBA, ran a couple hardware tech companies) but just don’t see it. But someone else wants to go for it, more power to them, good luck.
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Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #1089
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by newguy1 View Post
"Magic $700 multitrack tape machine" huh. "Idiotic," "foolishness," "foolishness" again.

If this isn't a troll, then your lack of self awareness is astounding. Please re-read post #1073 .
Hope you are enjoying all the attention you have been getting for that is what trolling is actually about.

Yes I did taunt you on your Neve post, for all the garbage you have written here I thought laughing at you was called for.

You claim you are here to keep joeq in line but the things he posts actually make sense even if you don't like the reality of it.

Your posts on the other hand have never contained anything that actually supports the dream of a new multi-track tape machine being actually manufactured.

A company building a few $30,000 two track open reel machines and another builing a bunch of sh!tty $169 typewriters that get poor reviews because they don't even function very well just adds to your circular defense and doesn't prove anything about the original discussion here.

Likewise a company that builds horse carts and carriages that start at about 3000£ actually supports the fact that mechanical devices are expensive to build. Tape machines are a hell of a lot more complex than a horse carts btw.

Some people will always want for old technology but there has to be a market for it and when that technology is complicated it doesn't happen cheaply.

Really old horse carts mostly are unusable so there is a market for new ones. Tape on the other hand still has lots of older machines available and they are repairable so there isn't much market for new and even if there was people would have to be willing to pay a bunch as has been pointed out ad nauseum complexity doesn't come cheap.

Yes, you spew a lot of foolishness which is why I have used the word a number of times.
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Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #1090
Gear Guru
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by rmgatl View Post
...Was just supposed to be a demo tape but they liked the demo better than the studio versions at that time
Everything that I have ever read on the subject indicates that the "they" was primarily Bruce Springsteen himself. There were apparently a number of people who tried to talk him out of it. But he's The Boss. In any case, if Nebraska did not exist, imagine how short these cassette discussions would be.

Quote:
maybe they preferred something done in studio later, but no I never heard it.
In a way, you have. Some of the tracks originally recorded for "Electric Nebraska" were released later. "Born in the USA" is one!
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Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #1091
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by JLast View Post
Hope you are enjoying all the attention you have been getting for that is what trolling is actually about.

Yes I did taunt you on your Neve post, for all the garbage you have written here I thought laughing at you was called for.

You claim you are here to keep joeq in line but the things he posts actually make sense even if you don't like the reality of it.

Your posts on the other hand have never contained anything that actually supports the dream of a new multi-track tape machine being actually manufactured.

A company building a few $30,000 two track open reel machines and another builing a bunch of sh!tty $169 typewriters that get poor reviews because they don't even function very well just adds to your circular defense and doesn't prove anything about the original discussion here.

Likewise a company that builds horse carts and carriages that start at about 3000£ actually supports the fact that mechanical devices are expensive to build. Tape machines are a hell of a lot more complex than a horse carts btw.

Some people will always want for old technology but there has to be a market for it and when that technology is complicated it doesn't happen cheaply.

Really old horse carts mostly are unusable so there is a market for new ones. Tape on the other hand still has lots of older machines available and they are repairable so there isn't much market for new and even if there was people would have to be willing to pay a bunch as has been pointed out ad nauseum complexity doesn't come cheap.

Yes, you spew a lot of foolishness which is why I have used the word a number of times.
I think a variety of tape units of sorts will be studio tools of the future, I think they'll always be around.

I don't understand why this brings you guys to insults.
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Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #1092
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by newguy1 View Post
I think a variety of tape units of sorts will be studio tools of the future, I think they'll always be around.

I don't understand why this brings you guys to insults.
It's your circular and unsupported "logic" that is maddening.

Just because a bunch of people like the idea of tape doesn't mean that they are going to actually pony up and buy such a device so why is a company going to build it? It's nothing new, it's been pointed out in painful detail earlier by me, joeq, and a number of others.

Even your latest statement here is more of the same vague hopefulness with nothing to support it.

For some time now tape has been absent from many studios and while there are some that may still have machines they sit in a corner unused more often than not.

Sure just like typewriters and horse carts somebody somewhere will still use tape but it's difficulties and limitations are huge and in the world of hundreds of tracks and tons of editing and manipulation of music to most people it's about as useful as a horse cart on a freeway that's moving at 85mph.

While I support the idea that tape is certainly cool, a ton of the music I enjoy was recorded on tape, there just isn't good arguement for a new tape format or even new machines.
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Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #1093
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by JLast View Post
It's your circular and unsupported "logic" that is maddening.

Just because a bunch of people like the idea of tape doesn't mean that they are going to actually pony up and buy such a device so why is a company going to build it? It's nothing new, it's been pointed out in painful detail earlier by me, joeq, and a number of others.

Even your latest statement here is more of the same vague hopefulness with nothing to support it.

For some time now tape has been absent from many studios and while there are some that may still have machines they sit in a corner unused more often than not.

Sure just like typewriters and horse carts somebody somewhere will still use tape but it's difficulties and limitations are huge and in the world of hundreds of tracks and tons of editing and manipulation of music to most people it's about as useful as a horse cart on a freeway that's moving at 85mph.

While I support the idea that tape is certainly cool, a ton of the music I enjoy was recorded on tape, there just isn't good arguement for a new tape format or even new machines.
Well. . I feel like there are enough indicators out there that its possible and likely.

I didn't bring up carts and typewriters. Those are examples given by people saying "tape in the future is impossible" as reasons why its impossible. Except those examples show the exact opposite: all are in current production.

If you have an issue with those examples, please take them up with the people who brought them into the thread. Not the fact checker saying "wait a sec guys. . . you're saying stuff that's simply not true."

I'm not saying tape will dominate. But I can definitely see it having its place in the hybrid future, probably in several different ways. A major league soccer team exists in the US. Will it take over football as the dominant sport of interest? No. Does it exist enough to thrive? Yes.

Anyway, I appreciate the respectful reply. That's been my one and only issue in this thread.
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Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #1094
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by newguy1 View Post
I didn't bring up carts and typewriters.
But you reposted them as if they were your own or at the very least presented them as they are part of your arguement. As well for extra emphasis you posted the link to the horse carts.

You clearly like to light fires (or relight them) and then try to run away and claim that it wasn't you.


Quote:
Originally Posted by newguy1 View Post
Anyway, I appreciate the respectful reply. That's been my one and only issue in this thread.
Again simply not the case and this clearly shows the roots of your trolling.

Your lack of respect for anyone who has reasonable and logical arguement against a new tape machine/format goes on for pages here.
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Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #1095
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by JLast View Post
Again simply not the case and this clearly shows the roots of your trolling.

Your lack of respect for anyone who has reasonable and logical arguement against a new tape machine/format goes on for pages here.
I’ve called disrespectful posts disrespectful. I’ve called posters who run other posters out of threads by condescending to them rude. I’ve reflected disrespect with disrespect. It’s needed, the way some people treat others here is abysmal.

I’m all for the arguments as to why a tape machine isn’t likely. I have zero issues with that. Not one post of mine reacts rudely to someone making a case for the difficulty of manufacturing a tape machine.
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Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #1096
Gear Guru
 
Sounds Great's Avatar
Please stop quoting "new guy", I really don't want to see his nonsense.
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Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #1097
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by joeq View Post
Everything that I have ever read on the subject indicates that the "they" was primarily Bruce Springsteen himself. There were apparently a number of people who tried to talk him out of it. But he's The Boss. In any case, if Nebraska did not exist, imagine how short these cassette discussions would be.

In a way, you have. Some of the tracks originally recorded for "Electric Nebraska" were released later. "Born in the USA" is one!
Probably not short enough lol. Gotta love debates about obsolete technology, usually something analog. Ironically I started out after EE school designing analog CMOS chips and we were a small community, sort of a separate breed. I enjoyed analog circuits way more than digital or writing code and should be nostalgic about analog (but I’m not). I was at Intel in the early days - the push was of course toward first digitizing telephony, which led later to cell phones, much later to internet, wi-if and life as we know it. In terms of this forum, itb is just so much easier, although I do understand computer ui burnout.

Yeah I recall reading that a handful of electric studio tracks spilled into Born in the USA. Nebraska was just sort of lightening in a bottle, a happy accident.
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Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #1098
Gear Guru
 
Sounds Great's Avatar
Nebraska doesn't prove anything. In fact the bit of it that I listened to sounded like crap.
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Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #1099
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sounds Great View Post
Please stop quoting "new guy", I really don't want to see his nonsense.
Is that the new plan here??? Because I'm good with that.

Yeah it would have been in
Interesting to hear Springsteens rough mix right from the four track.

Imagine what it sounded like before all the work they did to it?

I've definitely heard better four track cassette recordings than even the mixed and mastered Nebraska.
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Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #1100
Gear Maniac
Quote:
Originally Posted by JLast View Post
Yes it proves that it can sound cool but it also proves the point here that tape machines are difficult and not cheap to build.

Read his text on the youtube page:

A lot of you guys ask if I sell it or plan to build new machines. Answer is no, sorry.
Portable Marantz are getting rare and expansive, and often need to be serviced. And I’m not an expert for that. It would cost you a lot of money for an old machine that would fails who knows when.


Oh then there's a bit of hope:

Anyway, this guy here spacecasetapeecho.com seems to work very well and is selling cassette echoes.

And when you go to the page:
Well casette decks on the most basic level (no fancy stuff like auto reverse etc.) are much simpler than R2R's. Transport is always crappier too, but for a delay it is not as important as for a recording or mixdown deck. Of course its still a machine and still not solid state, then again people still buy stuff with tubes too.

These casette decks turned to tape echos have the problem of transport which is the most unreliable part, you could simply add a looped casette to this and you wouldnt even need reverse and anything just constant playing for the echo to work.
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Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #1101
Gear Guru
 
Sounds Great's Avatar
This is something that was all tape, I recorded it about 1982. Just a single guitar and a Marshall JMP combo amp. A single AKG c414eb in front of that amp and my Multivox Tape echo. Recorded live into a Crown 800 1/4" half-track recorder. I caught about 45 minutes of a very long acid trip before the tape ran out.

It was really loud! My brother upstairs later asked if I was making monster movies. The guitar was a Silvertone hollow body similar to the one below I had years later. But the pick-guard was loose and clanked like a MF! That is all the percussion you hear. The amp was similar to the one pictured.

I used to play this in a loop for Halloween when the kids were young. Spooky!

https://soundcloud.com/jebabical/nat...oQ67TmAbPe9Lhs
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Why hasn't a company made a modern 8 to 12 track tape recorder?-silvertone.jpg   Why hasn't a company made a modern 8 to 12 track tape recorder?-marshall-combo.jpg  
Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #1102
Gear Guru
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by rmgatl View Post
Nebraska was just sort of lightening in a bottle, a happy accident.
TBH, it never did anything for me.

There are people here who come very close to crediting that "lightning" to the cassette medium itself. That goes against everything I believe about recording - which is that the "magic" is located in front of the microphones. I wonder how many people who do like that record wish a better recorder had been connected during those happy accident takes?

I think all but the most rabid cassette enthusiast will admit that Nebraska with its "eh" sonics (and heroic Rescue Mastering operations) does not really "redeem" the cassette format as a viable professional production medium. At best, it is the exception that proves the rule; and in the opinion of many, it's not even an 'exception' at all.

This has an immediate bearing on our actual topic: No one making a cassette-based album who is not Bruce Springsteen will have access to that level of assistance to rescue their audio. This obviously leaves only the "lo-fi" market as potential buyers of a cassette recorder. People who want tape for any better-sounding purpose will want a different product. Every different product splits the supposed "market".

Which product should the hypothetical manufacturer make? If they make a cassette, they lose the people who want more than just lo-fi. If they make a reel, they lose the people who are afraid of Threading. If they make a really high-end unit, they lose the people who don't have $30,000 to spend.

All of these people say they "love tape". But that's where their common interest ends. It's insufficient to just total up all the people who love tape and call them a "Market" for some unspecified product.

The closer to actually getting built the product gets, the less it can be some vague idea that is all things to all people. It has to become a specific product. And as it becomes more specific, it will continue to shed potential customers. As it sheds potential customers, it becomes less and less attractive as a business venture.
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Last edited by joeq; 4 weeks ago at 09:50 AM.. Reason: [
Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #1103
Gear Guru
 
Sounds Great's Avatar
It was around 1982 and my friend Peter recorded this music on my Scully 2" 16 track, through a simple 16x4 Tangent mixer. Mixed onto my Crown 2-track. I had no compressors, processors, no digital nothing, and just an AKG BX10 spring reverb and my tape echo. The piano was upstairs, very far away and I ran long cables and a long headphone cable for him.

Yes, I taught myself how to thread the Scully. It was a temperamental beast that need help to get going in rewind, ff mode. I believe it is one of the biggest 16 tracks, that thing was monstrous. And about 500 pounds.

I put this system together myself, I was about 22 years old. I had no help, no YouTube. No training, no clue what I was doing.

Just an awesome 16 track tape recorder, a soldering iron, and a lot of determination. And nothing but the 'Modern Recording Techniques' book for a little guidance.

Before that, I had known nothing but a Teac 3340s 4-track mixed onto cassette decks. And simple RCA cables to connect them.

'Compromise' has an awesome patch on an OBXa synth.


Sadly, you are not hearing the tape, it sounds so much better before being digitized.



https://www.soundclick.com/artist/de...&content=songs
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Old 2 weeks ago | Show parent
  #1104
Gear Head
 
tific's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by newguy1 View Post
This is past-centric conservative mindedness though. Not forward thinking creative possibility mindedness in new contexts.

As I've pointed out, a lot of the interest comes from using four tracks as a performance instrument of sorts, to create certain sounds (especially ambient sounds), or to color certain sounds, as part of a larger production and/or performance setup.

Many would like DAW sync-ability and easy digital compatibility for stuff like this, which would open up a whole lot of very cool sound design and performance doors in a modern setup that aren't there with just a DAW.

Examples:



I used to experiment with a Tascam Porta one & Tascam Portastudio 424 MK11.There were also some units like the Tascam 564 .Sony MDM-X4 . Yamaha Md4 what used Mini Disc. http://www.minidisc.org/multitrack_table.html I preferred the sonic qualities of the Porta one as it had fewer eq bands & lower bandwidth so I understand the appeal & curiosity.

Re: The video performances using tape loops & audio stems.

Daw's may be unsuitable but there's plenty of dj software with midi sync or mapping on multiple operating systems & devices which can replicate or expand that workflow.

Dj software has 4 decks as standard & some also have real time stem separation.

You would create additional decks for each audio stem & the deck will have separate looping , tempo, cue points , pitch , eq , synchronisation of linear or non linear audio & Vst support. The dj mixer , track lists & turntable themed interfaces can be altered & minimised for essential functions. Or you can create your own & calibrate the range of each setting.

Some desktop brands like VirtualDj & Mixxx are free for home use & also support multiple audio interfaces on one machine. VirtualDj supports 99 decks
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