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Why hasn't a company made a modern 8 to 12 track tape recorder?
Old 27th September 2018
  #481
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Sigma's Avatar
if you listen to the same 'trane period and the push pull energy thing bet red garland and tyner..sheesh total dif trane
Old 27th September 2018
  #482
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sigma View Post
if you listen to the same 'trane period and the push pull energy thing bet red garland and tyner..sheesh total dif trane
Part of that was the music, in that Miles chose Red Garland to emulate Ahmad Jamal, and Trane fit his playing in that lighter and cocktail lounge vibe. (this is pretty true of most of the '55-'57 Quintet recordings on Prestige and Columbia, though Trane lets loose on the live bootlegs)

Trane's playing on Miles' 58-9 Sextet was very fiery, not that unlike what he was doing when McCoy was part of many of the Atlantic period. I think both Bill Evans and Wynton Kelly comped very well behind him.

Of course they took it to stratospheric levels on all those Impulse albums.

But yeah, no piano player pushed Trane like McCoy. He's quoted as saying he needed that 'rhythmic' thing that McCoy provided.
Old 27th September 2018
  #483
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 12tone View Post

... But yeah, no piano player pushed Trane like McCoy. He's quoted as saying he needed that 'rhythmic' thing that McCoy provided.
He sure brought 4ths to the fore ...
Old 27th September 2018
  #484
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharp11 View Post
He sure brought 4ths to the fore ...
Can't imagine "A Love Supreme" with any other piano player.
Old 27th September 2018
  #485
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robert82 View Post
Can't imagine "A Love Supreme" with any other piano player.
It sure woulda' sounded different with Cecil Taylor.

I could maybe imagine a Ferrante & Teicher version of ALS...
Old 28th September 2018
  #486
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharp11 View Post
He sure brought 4ths to the fore ...
For sure, here in '61, very late Atlantic period, right before the onslaught of Impulse and modal, the foreshadowing:



...although McCoy might be most synonymous with it, rootless left hand voicings based on stacked fourths was predated by Bill Evans. Not that Evans is responsible solely - it was a natural extension of jazz piano post Bud Powell that many alluded to. It was Evans though, who probably coalesced its sound and theory in a tighter and more concise way than was previously presented, a la the "So What" chords, and all his working out of upper extensions with rootless voicing concepts.

While So what is very well know for that sonority, I think it comes through in how Evans outlines the harmony with his deft two handed voicings in these two fine examples...



Old 28th September 2018
  #487
There are still a good number of digital multitrack stand-alone workstations (recorder/mixer in a box) which serve the purpose of a 4- or 8-track cassette recorder very well. And if you really want a multitrack analog reel-to-reel deck, I believe Studer still has a couple of A827s if you have lots of money, and at one point, I think about 10 years ago, they said that they were still able to build one if someone ordered it.

The reason why there aren't any new analog reel-to-reel tape decks is because there isn't sufficient market to build one at a sensible price. There have been a couple of failed attempts this century at building a professional grade 2-track recorder for under $10,000 but it just wasn't practical. People are snapping up good quality home, semi-pro, and broadcast decks to play pre-recorded tapes that they insist are better than vinyl (no stylus wear) so Ampex AG-440s that used to get pushed off the loading dock and into a dumpster are pretty much gone to the scavengers now.

If you want tape as a low-fi processor, you can still find the occasional Sony or Wollensak at a thrift store. But if you want even a narrow-track multitrack recorder like a TASCAM 80-8 or its follow-ons or the functionally similar Fostex, chances are you can find one but at a pretty nutty price, probably around the 1980s new price but in today's dollars. And then you might need to get the heads refurbished or replaced, get a calibration tape, demagnetizer, manual, and the knowledge to set it up and maintain it properly.

Sticking in a flash memory card and pressing Record is so much less sticky, frequency response and distortion are better than a tape deck even in good shape, and there's no wow and flutter. Even though the new Portastudioids don't give you all the features of a full blown console and you can't adjust the bias and operating level to get the saturation effect that you can with real tape, the workflow is pretty similar to a traditional control room, and you can get a lot of work done with one pretty efficiently.
Old 28th September 2018
  #488
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ffff... had a feeling i shoulda picked up that fostex at the bootsale
for 40eu ...

still: i would not ever have used it, i'm pretty sure of that.
(i do have a very fine pair of rack ears here that i'm sure belong
to something similar if anyone's looking for any, about 50mm front
face, 7U or thereabouts)

however i do above all want a multitrack recorder that doesn't
depend on any computer, with midi sync, 'all the sample rates',
desktop or smaller size, operation possible on batteries, and
storage on SD or via USB. boom.

current compromise (just for everyday noodlin', quick takes, etc.)
is the microBR swissknife thing (because i can tune a guitar and
use it as a preamp and multifx pedal), mainly used as 2-track but
occasionally chuck something else in, and it seems to bounce down
ok - but it won't sync-start. but it stores on SD and runs on batteries.

so i checked through the boss/zoom offerings for the cheapest that
had MIDI, ran on batteries, uses SD up to 1GB... there were loads of
models made... most are pretty ugly and have a really distracting
'rhythm' section (drum/bass). meaning that you switch it on, and then
start fiddling with that, and never record anything. i would rip that out
if i could (shall look into it), and i'm not into pînk and green LED colour
schemes, with one thing flashing all the time when you've got the one
function you actually want from it. ok, so i'm talking about the (gasp
how could you) zoom mrs-8. hurrah, it had MIDI (out), and fulfilled the
batteries and SD thing. i have No Idea what sound quality is like, with
this zoom/boss compression. pfff, seems alright, yeah.. adaptive whatever.

then: (because obviously i'm going to regret using the microBR one day,
.. i'll suddenly 'hear it', and not hear anything else) i saw someone flogging
a more recent Tascam thing that does 24/96 as 2track, cheap, local. until
i read it can't handle high line level input and has difficult/no internal input
attenuation.. so i skipped that, and it isn't multitrack either. which isn't
essential, it's just a nice bonus.(as are GT fx, guitar tuner, etc etc). so not
much use, because above all, i want midi sync.(if i want walkabout recording,
the little microBR is pretty alright for that too; onboard mic is very sensitive,
and can take an external mic. enough for any use i might have)

so then i thought wdf, surely there's some cheap chinese s*** that does
mobile 24bit/96khz ... ah but it's going to be horrible isn't it. and what about
...whatever, ADC/DAC, how's that going to be? so i think about Tascam again,
and they are probably on top of it - and moreso, i think of Boss, and:
BOSS, WDF? why no 24bit/96khz, and WHY NO MIDI ? (Tascam? Behri? anybody?)
Old 1st October 2018
  #489
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeRivers View Post
There are still a good number of digital multitrack stand-alone workstations (recorder/mixer in a box) which serve the purpose of a 4- or 8-track cassette recorder very well.
IMO, they more than serve the purpose. The old cassette decks were sufficient for working out your ideas.. making demos to teach the band your songs. etc. The new devices run at professional bit and sample rates. Given a good mic and some care, the tracks you cut "at home" can be transferred to the DAW at a pro studio and be keepers, not just "demo worthy" but production quality.


Quote:
And if you really want a multitrack analog reel-to-reel deck, I believe Studer still has a couple of A827s
the OP doesn't want anything like that because he would have to thread it!
Old 1st October 2018
  #490
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joeq View Post
The new devices run at professional bit and sample rates.
Actually, it was difficult to find one of these "portastudios" that did 96K sample rate until Sound Devices came out with their MixPre-10M.

I ended up getting an old HD-24 and upgrading the crap out of it to get it to sound more high-end.
Old 2nd October 2018
  #491
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrAudiospecific View Post
You see, the sample rates of 44.1Khz and 48Khz are meant for consumers. Because the only thing they can record is a diminished copy.
I did half an album at 96k and the other half at 48k

after analog mastering, there is no way you or any other audio blowhard could pick out which songs were "diminished" and which songs were "not diminished"

boxcar-loads of professional product is tracked in professional studios at 44.1 and 48k all the time.

If somebody tracked some parts at home at those "diminished" sample rates, those tracks would still be usable in a commercial record.

Now, if somebody tracked some parts at home on a stupid cassette deck, they would need 5 mastering engineers to rescue it - you know, like Nebraska did.
Old 2nd October 2018
  #492
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Tape schmape...

how's about another 44.1/48 vs 88.2/96 boondoggle? It ain't like there's too many of them.
Old 2nd October 2018
  #493
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joeq View Post
I did half an album at 96k and the other half at 48k

after analog mastering, there is no way you or any other audio blowhard could pick out which songs were "diminished" and which songs were "not diminished"

boxcar-loads of professional product is tracked in professional studios at 44.1 and 48k all the time.

If somebody tracked some parts at home at those "diminished" sample rates, those tracks would still be usable in a commercial record.

Now, if somebody tracked some parts at home on a stupid cassette deck, they would need 5 mastering engineers to rescue it - you know, like Nebraska did.
Oh Joe, but you don't know about that thing inside the converter that does another thing to the current in three dimensions that can't be done when two dimensions become three.
Old 2nd October 2018
  #494
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Sharp11's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrAudiospecific View Post
At least someone is developing home recording equipment correctly (@96K).

You see, the sample rates of 44.1Khz and 48Khz are meant for consumers. Because the only thing they can record is a diminished copy. It was a tragedy to see other designers making "professional audio products" below 88.2Khz. Mainly because of this. Also, there is not a lot of engineers out there that really DON'T know how to apply the converter circuit in an audio circuit. So that is why the majority are using the generic circuit in the converter chip's application guide.

Just to let this side know whats going on....
All the HD film and tv work I do is delivered at 24/48
Old 2nd October 2018
  #495
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrAudiospecific View Post
I was talking to other engineers about this, and we are still laughing that you guys didn't catch on that STARVING a converter is the equivalent to tape saturation without the high frequency loss.





EDIT: We concluded that it must be testosterone based reasoning of "bigger is always better" hearing about people racing to the top of the dbfs meter.
Must be a lot of fun living in that alternate world of yours - I prefer the real world, where I can make excellent recordings at 24/48, earn a living, and not need to use high dollar words and phrases to hide a bunch of utter nonsense talk.
Old 2nd October 2018
  #496
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrAudiospecific View Post
so what tracks were 96K, and what was the DAW's project sample rate? .
about half the songs were tracked at 96k and mixed to 96k - 96k all the way through...

the rest were 44.1 all the way through from tracking to mixdown

Quote:
all of this comes into play, but either processing to artificially make the 44.1Khz/48Khz sound good

how do you "artificially" make something sound good?

if it sounds good, it is good

That was the first thing I ever learned about audio. Some people never learn it. Too busy calculating the cube root of a trumpet, I guess.

Quote:
Either way, its still audible to me and there is a lot of badly recorded commercial material because of this

oh don't worry, I won't embarrass you by posting the files and challenging you to pick out which songs were 96k all the way to mastering and which were 44.1 start to finish. But I do know you would fail. Even if you went into the Fourth Dimension to examine the files.

Some very very excellent ears have been unable to even come close. They might as well have been flipping coins. I would have to go to my archives to remember myself. I forget if it was 5 and 5, 4 and 6, or 6 and 4. So even 'lucky guessing' starts to gets problematic.
Old 2nd October 2018
  #497
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joeq View Post
cube root of a trumpet
Vuvuzela?
Old 2nd October 2018
  #498
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrAudiospecific View Post
That would be on the DAC side, where the slew rate performance is needed to rebuild the transients that is lost from the poor delivery specifications the industry raced for no reason other to make it sound louder on poorer quality audio products.

but the whole lesson of that going into the converter has to do with the signal's current return, and the loss in the electronics as the signal is converted to digital.


That's unfortunate for you that you don't understand that sound propagates through analog medias in and can be expressed in three dimensional terms. Obviously you haven't done any real acoustic engineering that requires such math, like horns.
There you go again, "where the slew rate performance is needed to rebuild the transients that is lost from the poor delivery specifications". Slew rate cannot restore information that is lost somewhere in the signal chain. Poor delivery specifications? What does this mean?

You're making bold claims and backing them up with nonsensical statements and convoluted engineering mish-mash that no one here is understanding. If you have some valid points to make, the unfortunate thing here is how poor of a job you're doing at expressing them. This is why no one is taking you seriously.

The other possibility is that you really don't have a valid point and are employing the "if you can't dazzle 'em with your brilliance, baffle 'em with your bull$h^t" principal to try to keep everyone from realizing it.
Old 2nd October 2018
  #499
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I think it’s pretty clear who is trolling, and who has some experience to back up their assertions. You’ve been here a grand total of two weeks and have no credibility to spend, in part because your psuedo-tech jargon spewing comes across like any number of other newcomers who try to spin just a little knowledge into tales of their own mastery. It’s not persuasive, and when you turn to insults it only hastens your path to everyone’s ignore list.
Old 2nd October 2018
  #500
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Troll alert !
Old 2nd October 2018
  #501
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrAudiospecific View Post
That would be a loss on their part, and not mine.

This forum doesn't rank someone's credibility in the field, nor could be the basis of it because the posts are opinions.


I would have a 15 year badge already if I didn't leave btw, and it still shows you guys are still running around trying to make a wheel so that the car drives the same.

Know wonder the others told me to leave you guys alone, because you would never know how to comprehend how the equipment works, and only deal with the results afterwards with what my programming friends sell you at the time for plugins.
Seems like that's what YOU should do, have THEM answer the questions instead of you ASKING THEM if its OK for you to answer...
Your posts are not very useful in any way, make no sense...
Plus who are you anyway?

Your trying SO hard to come across as "THE MAN" but you misspelled polypropylene twice in the same post, then you used emitter instead of cathode...not very impressed so far...

Last edited by nosebleedaudio; 2nd October 2018 at 09:09 PM..
Old 2nd October 2018
  #502
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robert82's Avatar
Quote:
My co-workers here at Analog Devices told me to abandon you guys....
See this is what happens when "they" let some hack off the leash. Thanks for visiting us from way up above. We recognize your superiority and we'll miss it, as we slog along in our ignorance.
Old 2nd October 2018
  #503
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robert82's Avatar
Wait, I have a better metaphor. It's like some toddler god in the Pantheon got loose and decided to come down to Earth and mess around with the mortals. He was throwing word salad all over and dazzling folks with teraflop digital (finger) speed. Then the grownup gods found out and told him to come home.

edit: above, dude made a post then deleted it saying "They don't need to know." Priceless!
Old 2nd October 2018
  #504
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nosebleedaudio's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by robert82 View Post
See this is what happens when "they" let some hack off the leash. Thanks for visiting us from way up above. We recognize your superiority and we'll miss it, as we slog along in our ignorance.
Too bad he deleted the post...
I think its time I called Analog Devices...
Old 2nd October 2018
  #505
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrAudiospecific View Post
But since you are probably not on the level of someone like Terry Date, you probably wouldn't understand that.
Great, pulling out the snob card. Not gonna get me to back off. I'm not afraid of being wrong about this.

Quote:
Its the design challenges of making a DAC. Op amps do an ok job, but not perfect.
OK job of what? One more vague thing in your statements.

Quote:
amplitude to dynamic range
This is not a specification in any device that I know of. There's max amplitude, and signal to noise ratio that deal with amplitude and dynamic range. You're introducing a new metric to measure converters or signal chains that you have to explain and define.

You are the one making the claims that go against established audio engineering, like saying that Nyquist doesn't apply due to deficiencies in the signal chain, or that anything less than 88.2KHz represents a necessarily diminished recording. So the burden of proof rests on you to prove or demonstrate these claims. It is not our job to get your claims by any hacked up explanation you throw out here. No scientist or engineer changes his/her field by taking the position "It's true and you're all a bunch of idiots if you don't see it".

Perhaps one day we'll all see that what you're saying is true. But right now, you look like someone who's throwing out a bunch of big words and big talk but really doesn't know what they're talking about.
Old 2nd October 2018
  #506
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robert82's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrAudiospecific View Post
btw this site is still bot-net
As in, all GS members' machines are running a DDoS or sending out spam?
Old 2nd October 2018
  #507
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Hmmph. Analog Devices 'ey? I probably know some of those coworkers.
Old 2nd October 2018
  #508
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Sharp11's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrAudiospecific View Post
That would be a loss on their part, and not mine.

This forum doesn't rank someone's credibility in the field, nor could be the basis of it because the posts are opinions.


I would have a 15 year badge already if I didn't leave btw, and it still shows you guys are still running around trying to make a wheel so that the car drives the same.

Know wonder the others told me to leave you guys alone, because you would never know how to comprehend how the equipment works, and only deal with the results afterwards with what my programming friends sell you at the time for plugins.

Or maybe some of you guys caught on, and purposely trying to discredit someone that tells them how it really works. Maybe this is one of those "competition" things.
These “other guys” you keep mentioning - are they back at the hospital?
Old 3rd October 2018
  #509
Gear Guru
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrAudiospecific View Post
Plugins

Well that is what I actually picture when someone has to over process the signal because the signal itself got stretched on the way in because the level was 2000% more than what was needed for the conversion.

I wouldn't want to be a victim of a bait and switch game anyways, so I wouldn't entertain that.
Okay, well you have tipped your hand, and revealed yourself as someone who is indeed trolling and has no useful information to contribute. My ignore list is not very long, but once someone shows their true colors, I don't hesitate to put them on it.

I would have to say though, as trolls go, you are not even a very good one. You have fallen into obviousness in just the course of a few pages of one thread. Other trolls managed to walk the line of credibility for weeks or months in several threads.

To everyone else in the thread: I highly recommend judicious use of the ignore list. Gearslutz is so much more pleasant a place when the trolling posts are hidden from your view. There is no effort required to "resist the urge" to put the troll in his place. As his actual place is back under the bridge where nobody can see him - and nobody can hear him.
Old 3rd October 2018
  #510
Gear Guru
 

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