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APS Klasik - anyone use them?
Old 19th April 2019
  #121
adl
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Umulungu View Post
Thank you very much! I’m torn between the klasiks and the focal cms 65. After a lot of reading i almost chose the klasik but the rear port and bass extension down to 35 hz scares me.
Yeah, exactly that was the problem for me. I went for Neumann KH 120 instead, which have front bassport and also got a nice low-end (not as deep as APS Klasik mind you).
I now settled with Neumann KH 310, but they are in another price league.
Old 19th April 2019
  #122
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adl View Post
Yeah, exactly that was the problem for me. I went for Neumann KH 120 instead, which have front bassport and also got a nice low-end (not as deep as APS Klasik mind you).
I now settled with Neumann KH 310, but they are in another price league.
That’s very helpful. The neumann kh 120 and presonus spectre s6 would be ideal but far above my budget. The cms will be my choice then. Are you using the newmann with a sub?
Old 19th April 2019
  #123
adl
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Umulungu View Post
That’s very helpful. The neumann kh 120 and presonus spectre s6 would be ideal but far above my budget. The cms will be my choice then. Are you using the newmann with a sub?
I had the Neumann 120 with a Sub (Adam Sub 8 as I had the Adam A7 monitors before) but now with the Neumann 310 I don't feel that I need a Sub anymore, as they go down to somewhere around 30Hz.
Old 19th April 2019
  #124
Gear Nut
 

The rear port being close to the wall shouldn't be a problem. Bass frequencies are omni directional and regardless of where the port is, the bass will still hit your rear wall. The port is just releasing air which I guess affects how low of a frequency the monitors can actually hit. That said you should be able to adjust the low frequency response in your room by adjusting the monitors distance from the wall if I recall correctly (it has been awhile since I last set up monitors).

More info here:
Why bass reflex at the back of monitors????

Regardless the Klasik have 3 modes you can use to adjust the bass if you find that there is too much, or too little, low frequency energy in your room.
Old 19th April 2019
  #125
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adl View Post
I had the Neumann 120 with a Sub (Adam Sub 8 as I had the Adam A7 monitors before) but now with the Neumann 310 I don't feel that I need a Sub anymore, as they go down to somewhere around 30Hz.
Oh! You already have the 310! Yeah that’s another league. Thanks for your replies. I never heard higher class monitors than my mackies mr5 and some cms 40 so it’s very hard to me to choose something.
Old 19th April 2019
  #126
adl
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Umulungu View Post
Oh! You already have the 310! Yeah that’s another league. Thanks for your replies. I never heard higher class monitors than my mackies mr5 and some cms 40 so it’s very hard to me to choose something.
Yeah, I upgraded to the 310 after some days with the 120s, as I wanted to get rid of the Subwoofer for some time and with the 8.5 woofer on the 310s I don't really need a sub anymore. The Neumanns are really good, both versions. Maybe you can get em second hand somewhere?
Old 19th April 2019
  #127
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adl View Post
Yeah, I upgraded to the 310 after some days with the 120s, as I wanted to get rid of the Subwoofer for some time and with the 8.5 woofer on the 310s I don't really need a sub anymore. The Neumanns are really good, both versions. Maybe you can get em second hand somewhere?
Yeah definitely i will consider some second hand newmann kh120 and sceptre s6.
Old 19th April 2019
  #128
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rodan View Post
The rear port being close to the wall shouldn't be a problem. Bass frequencies are omni directional and regardless of where the port is, the bass will still hit your rear wall. The port is just releasing air which I guess affects how low of a frequency the monitors can actually hit. That said you should be able to adjust the low frequency response in your room by adjusting the monitors distance from the wall if I recall correctly (it has been awhile since I last set up monitors).


More info here:
Why bass reflex at the back of monitors????

Regardless the Klasik have 3 modes you can use to adjust the bass if you find that there is too much, or too little, low frequency energy in your room.
Thanks for the reply. I have read about that but in my situation the port will be like 10 cm from the wall. I don’t know if the air getting out the port will not affect the sound if i push the levels a little harder. I know that 30-50 cm from the wall would be safe but 10-20 cm i don’t know. What do you think?
Old 19th April 2019
  #129
adl
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Umulungu View Post
Yeah definitely i will consider some second hand newmann kh120 and sceptre s6.
I always heard and read, that the Neumanns (120s) where amazing and when I actually listened them I knew why everybody is raving about them. They offer such depth and clarity, great stereo image and even pretty good bass for such a little box, it's such a clear winner. I took em home immediately (bought em at thomann, as I live nearby) and really loved to just LISTEN to music on em, as (good mixes) just sounds great on em (again: depth is amazing!).
Thomann offers their 30 days money back thing, so after 3 weeks I thought if the 310s would be an even better fit, as thy offer the same Neumann sound (clarity, depth etc) but as a 3-way system even more clarity on the mids and with enough bass to get rid of my Adam Sub 8. So on the last day of those 30days I brought back the 120s and got the 310s. Very glad with the decision although I got no money now.

EDIT:

Regarding your question: 10-15cm is way to close as far as I know and from my experience (had the Klasiks about the same distance from my wall) . So, front port is the way to go for you as well. Iistend to the HEDD Type 20, which offer front port but where a bit to bassy for me. Neumann blew me away with the clarity and depth (sorry for repeating myself, it was just clear that those are the ones for me).
Old 19th April 2019
  #130
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Umulungu View Post
Thanks for the reply. I have read about that but in my situation the port will be like 10 cm from the wall. I don’t know if the air getting out the port will not affect the sound if i push the levels a little harder. I know that 30-50 cm from the wall would be safe but 10-20 cm i don’t know. What do you think?
It actually discusses port noise in that link I posted.

Personally I don’t think it’s going to make much of a difference but I’d read up more on it. There are lots of threads. Or maybe start your own thread about it for more knowledgeable people to find. I’m not an expert in this area as I’ve never had my speakers that close to a wall. Another option is that if you find it does cause a problem, there are foam port plugs you can put inside the port....but I assume that’s change the speakers response somewhat.
Old 19th April 2019
  #131
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adl View Post
I always heard and read, that the Neumanns (120s) where amazing and when I actually listened them I knew why everybody is raving about them. They offer such depth and clarity, great stereo image and even pretty good bass for such a little box, it's such a clear winner. I took em home immediately (bought em at thomann, as I live nearby) and really loved to just LISTEN to music on em, as (good mixes) just sounds great on em (again: depth is amazing!).
Thomann offers their 30 days money back thing, so after 3 weeks I thought if the 310s would be an even better fit, as thy offer the same Neumann sound (clarity, depth etc) but as a 3-way system even more clarity on the mids and with enough bass to get rid of my Adam Sub 8. So on the last day of those 30days I brought back the 120s and got the 310s. Very glad with the decision although I got no money now.

EDIT:

Regarding your question: 10-15cm is way to close as far as I know and from my experience (had the Klasiks about the same distance from my wall) . So, front port is the way to go for you as well. Iistend to the HEDD Type 20, which offer front port but where a bit to bassy for me. Neumann blew me away with the clarity and depth (sorry for repeating myself, it was just clear that those are the ones for me).
Ok. Thanks! Maybe i will have a chance to listen to these monitors somwhere but now it’s impossible.
Old 19th April 2019
  #132
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rodan View Post
It actually discusses port noise in that link I posted.

Personally I don’t think it’s going to make much of a difference but I’d read up more on it. There are lots of threads. Or maybe start your own thread about it for more knowledgeable people to find. I’m not an expert in this area as I’ve never had my speakers that close to a wall. Another option is that if you find it does cause a problem, there are foam port plugs you can put inside the port....but I assume that’s change the speakers response somewhat.
Yeah i have read this thread and many others about speaker placements but they don’t specify how close to the wall the sound is not affected by the ports themselves, not only the bass frequencies. I assume that in a studio “close” is something different than in a bedroom. I will do more research on this. Thanks.
Old 19th April 2019
  #133
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rodan View Post
Another option is that if you find it does cause a problem, there are foam port plugs you can put inside the port....but I assume that’s change the speakers response somewhat.
I have tried this on my current monitors. It removes completely the lows (but doesnt affect the 12db peak at 120hz ;().
But i have read somwhere that this can affect the ventilation of the amps.
Old 19th April 2019
  #134
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Umulungu View Post
I have tried this on my current monitors. It removes completely the lows (but doesnt affect the 12db peak at 120hz ;().
But i have read somwhere that this can affect the ventilation of the amps.
Interesting. That's a good point on the amps. I hadn't considered that.
Old 19th April 2019
  #135
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Umulungu View Post
I have tried this on my current monitors. It removes completely the lows (but doesnt affect the 12db peak at 120hz ;().
But i have read somwhere that this can affect the ventilation of the amps.
A random thought. Not sure how accurate this is, but it might help.

If you have an SPL meter you could try generating pink noise and then run it through a low pass filter with cutoff at 80Hz using a steep slope that doesn't allow frequencies above 100Hz.

Then mark the exact position where your ears sit normally (in the equilateral triangle positioning of your monitors).

Then you could hold the spl meter there and record what the average spl level is (using a c weighting) with the monitors facing you, and then rotate the monitors 180 degrees so the backs face your listening position and the port faces towards the wall. Then see what the SPL level is in that position. Don't adjust the level between measurements.

That might give you an idea of how much the bass is going to change based on which direction the port faces.

If you don't have an spl meter you can't be as accurate, but you could just use your ears and try to determine if there is a big difference in levels or not.
Old 19th April 2019
  #136
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rodan View Post
A random thought. Not sure how accurate this is, but it might help.

If you have an SPL meter you could try generating pink noise and then run it through a low pass filter with cutoff at 80Hz using a steep slope that doesn't allow frequencies above 100Hz.

Then mark the exact position where your ears sit normally (in the equilateral triangle positioning of your monitors).

Then you could hold the spl meter there and record what the average spl level is (using a c weighting) with the monitors facing you, and then rotate the monitors 180 degrees so the backs face your listening position and the port faces towards the wall. Then see what the SPL level is in that position. Don't adjust the level between measurements.

That might give you an idea of how much the bass is going to change based on which direction the port faces.

If you don't have an spl meter you can't be as accurate, but you could just use your ears and try to determine if there is a big difference in levels or not.
Wow! Thats a good idea! I have an ecm8000 mic. I can just do this experiment with REW. Thanks for the idea.
However the mid range woofer will be closer to the wall and could affect the amount of bass that is bouncing from it.
Old 19th April 2019
  #137
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Umulungu View Post
Wow! Thats a good idea! I have an ecm8000 mic. I can just do this experiment with REW. Thanks for the idea.
However the mid range woofer will be closer to the wall and could affect the amount of bass that is bouncing from it.
Hmm you're probably right. I'm not sure there is a way around that. Dangit!

My thought is since frequencies lower than 100Hz aren't directional it shouldn't matter right? Or is my logic incorrect? In my head i am imagining the speaker with sub 100Hz frequencies radiating out 360 degrees.

Kinda like this at 2:28: =https://youtu.be/THUMdTohWkI?t=149
Old 19th April 2019
  #138
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rodan View Post
Hmm you're probably right. I'm not sure there is a way around that. Dangit!

I mean my thought is since frequencies lower than 100hz aren't directional it shouldn't matter right? Or is my logic incorrect?
Yeah but the starting point of low frequencies will be the woofer and not the port (if i understand right how ported speakers work). So if the woofer is closer to a wall, the build up in bass should be bigger.
The only way to compare is to have some front ported speakers on my desk. Anyway thanks for helping me. Maybe i should just buy any monitor in this price range and deal with the problems later (maybe sonarworks).
Old 19th April 2019
  #139
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Umulungu View Post
Yeah but the starting point of low frequencies will be the woofer and not the port (if i understand right how ported speakers work). So if the woofer is closer to a wall, the build up in bass should be bigger.
The only way to compare is to have some front ported speakers on my desk. Anyway thanks for helping me. Maybe i should just buy any monitor in this price range and deal with the problems later (maybe sonarworks).
No problem. It was fun to think about and I think you're right about the bass emanating from the woofer.

I actually use Sonarworks and it works really well. It's not perfect by any means, but it definitely helps even out my bass response in a room that isn't really treated properly.

I used Sonarworks with the Klasik and it sounded great. They are amazing monitors. My issues were more that they didn't have enough bass in my larger room. They would've been perfect in a smaller room.

Good luck!
Old 19th April 2019
  #140
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rodan View Post
No problem. It was fun to think about and I think you're right about the bass emanating from the woofer.

I actually use Sonarworks and it works really well. It's not perfect by any means, but it definitely helps even out my bass response in a room that isn't really treated properly.

I used Sonarworks with the Klasik and it sounded great. They are amazing monitors. My issues were more that they didn't have enough bass in my larger room. They would've been perfect in a smaller room.

Good luck!
Ok. Thanks!
Old 20th April 2019
  #141
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Umulungu View Post
Thank you very much! I’m torn between the klasiks and the focal cms 65. After a lot of reading i almost chose the klasik but the rear port and bass extension down to 35 hz scares me.
The klasik are a better monitor hands down, better stereo field, detail, bass, balance and listening experience. The only shortcoming of the aps is that don't go very laud...

I'd consider also the Eve sc207 or 208, great monitors for the price
And the Neumann kh120 is a serious mixing tool
Old 20th April 2019
  #142
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Originally Posted by substance View Post
The klasik are a better monitor hands down, better stereo field, detail, bass, balance and listening experience. The only shortcoming of the aps is that don't go very laud...

I'd consider also the Eve sc207 or 208, great monitors for the pricef
And the Neumann kh120 is a serious mixing tool
Hi, i know that the aps are superior to the cms in a well treated room, but i was comparing them in the context of my non treated room and close to the wall. I’ve read a lot of good stuff about the eves and was considering them too but i found on different forums that they break a lot.
I will try the newmann i found them used for a good price. Thank you!
Old 20th April 2019
  #143
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Umulungu View Post
Hi, i know that the aps are superior to the cms in a well treated room, but i was comparing them in the context of my non treated room and close to the wall. I’ve read a lot of good stuff about the eves and was considering them too but i found on different forums that they break a lot.
I will try the newmann i found them used for a good price. Thank you!
In a non treated room no monitor will sound accurate.
Eve are solid monitors had few pairs and never had an issue
Had a pair of cms too and had few distortion issue with them.

For the choice all the monitors mentioned are good monitors, so whatever you choose will work fine.
An other good one seem to be the Kali Audio LP6 and are very cheap.
Also the fluid audio FX8 has a very good following.
Never heard the Kali or the fluid so can't debate.

Between the Eve and Neumann and APS the Eve are more musical, more inviting and better for writing and producing.
The Aps are killer monitors great for mixing honest and unflattering, the only problem is that are not very loud, but great pair of monitors.
The neumann are also very dry and will require more work to mix on, but once you nail the mix on those will sound great everywhere. The issue with the kh120 is that don't go very low so if you need lots of info around the 40hz go either between tha eve and aps.
An other tip, try the Kali are cheap, less than 400 euros a pair and if you don't like them you can get the money back within few weeks, at least in europe..
Good luck pal
Old 20th April 2019
  #144
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Quote:
Originally Posted by substance View Post
In a non treated room no monitor will sound accurate.
Eve are solid monitors had few pairs and never had an issue
Had a pair of cms too and had few distortion issue with them.

For the choice all the monitors mentioned are good monitors, so whatever you choose will work fine.
An other good one seem to be the Kali Audio LP6 and are very cheap.
Also the fluid audio FX8 has a very good following.
Never heard the Kali or the fluid so can't debate.

Between the Eve and Neumann and APS the Eve are more musical, more inviting and better for writing and producing.
The Aps are killer monitors great for mixing honest and unflattering, the only problem is that are not very loud, but great pair of monitors.
The neumann are also very dry and will require more work to mix on, but once you nail the mix on those will sound great everywhere. The issue with the kh120 is that don't go very low so if you need lots of info around the 40hz go either between tha eve and aps.
An other tip, try the Kali are cheap, less than 400 euros a pair and if you don't like them you can get the money back within few weeks, at least in europe..
Good luck pal
Thank you very much for such a detailed overview of each monitor!
I considered the kali and fluid audio fx8 too but decided to go for a higher class. The fluid fx80 are interesting too. Maybe i’ll wait and see how they perform when they will come out. Unfortunately sending back monitors after trying them will cost a lot, at least from where a live.
I have no experience with good monitors at all but i was thinking that in a non treated room different monitors will perform differently (though never ideal). Maybe some 5000$ monitors will sound worse than some cheap ones. That’s why i needed some advice from experienced users.
It seems like you didn’t like the cms at all. Are they still decent for mixing? Mix translation?
About the eves, i found on some french and russian forums that they have a lot of issues after one or two years of use (the sc 200 series assembled in china).
Btw the sc207 were number 1 on my list.
Old 27th May 2019
  #145
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Umulungu View Post
Thank you very much for such a detailed overview of each monitor!
What prevents just test APS in Russia?
Old 27th May 2019
  #146
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Originally Posted by Knstntn View Post
What prevents just test APS in Russia?
Not that easy. I’m not living in Moscow and because of my work have little time to go there and test them. Btw i don’t think the speakers themselves are my main problem. It’s just how they go to perform in my non treated room. I’m sure that the aps and eves are amazing; and the focals are great too... in a well treated room )))
Old 28th May 2019
  #147
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An other good contender could be a pair of Passive monitors.
Mission LX2 @ 180 euros with a T-amp 400 @ 119 euros from thomann.
All at 300 euros
I heard few well respected mastering engineers saying that they sound spectacular, I am also tempted to try them on as a second pair, apparently nothing they tried sound as good under 1000/1500 euros. The guy that is using them has a pair of B&W 800D and does mastering for a living so he knows what a good sound is.

A low budget is indeed a low budget, good sound isn't that expensive today but to get accurate great sounding monitors you need to spend, also if you need stuff to go Low need bigger monitors and sound treatment, physics can't be fooled...

Unless you have a big budget and get a pair of Kii or D&D but that's all a new world and premium price league...

I do understand that you are located in Russia, so it may be difficult to try lots of stuff... and return thing that you don't like, Consider ebay, you are entitled to get a refund too of P&P...

Either Klasik, SC207, KH120 are great NF monitors, they all have their personalities but they do mix well and translate accurately.
Good luck mate and let us know what you'll get and thoughts as it may help others on the forum
Old 28th May 2019
  #148
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Umulungu View Post
Not that easy. I’m not living in Moscow and because of my work have little time to go there and test them. Btw i don’t think the speakers themselves are my main problem. It’s just how they go to perform in my non treated room. I’m sure that the aps and eves are amazing; and the focals are great too... in a well treated room )))

Don't need living in Moscow. Russian distributor can send you demo pair for test. Yes, treatment is very important.
Regards.
Old 28th May 2019
  #149
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Originally Posted by Knstntn View Post
Don't need living in Moscow. Russian distributor can send you demo pair for test. Yes, treatment is very important.
Regards.
That’s cool!
Old 8th July 2019
  #150
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ajdeboer View Post
I did experience the 'farting' sound too, and I'm just using my Klasiks for classical stuff. But those big pipe organs can get fat and low too.

I've had replaced my initial pair of Klasiks 2 times. My current pair is from a different production series and they don't have the 'farting' problem at all.

For now I'm very happy with my pair!

Hi Ajdeboer, I'm about to order APS Klasiks and as I live in Dublin, Ireland, (where we have no APS monitors) I'll have to order them from some other European country - What is your "production series"?

or how to check it that it will be from "different production series", so I will save my self from hassle of sending Pair of Speakers back and forth across the sea and pay for it..

also where did you get (shop name and country) the working correctly pair of APS Klasiks?
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