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Studio desk: A&H GL2200 vs Soundtracs Topaz Project 8 (vs. Tascam M2600MKII)?
Old 21st February 2016
  #1
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🎧 10 years
Studio desk: A&H GL2200 vs Soundtracs Topaz Project 8 (vs. Tascam M2600MKII)?

So, GAS has struck, and while I have a nice Akai DPS24 recorder/mixer, I also have an Alesis HD24XR, to which I like to mix OTB.

I'm contemplating various 24-32 channel boards that I can get for reasonably cheap (<$600).

My idea is to use the HD24XR on location (with seperate preamps, which I have a bunch of) and then mix down analog to the desk.

My 'ideal' one would be the A&H GSR24, which would be great with the Firewire/ADAT card to interface digitally with the HD24XR, but aside from that, the desk isn't really an inline desk at all and feature wise, an older GL2200 isn't that far off from the GSR24.
And ofcourse the $8-10k price tag... :-S

6 auxes, switchable HPF, Line/mic switch, +48V per channel...

My question is; which of these desks would you recommend?
-I'm not considering the Tascam M3500, too big, heard too many stories about noise.
-I'm NOT considering the Tascam M2600 MKI either; unbalanced I/O on RCA plugs.

I'm partially considering the A&H GL2400, but heard repeated comments that it would sound worse than the GL2200.

I know that the GL2200 (and 2400) are more live-boards than studioboards, but again, the workflow (FOR ME!) would be roughly the same as I would on the GSR24, sans digital I/O.
Old 24th February 2016
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Old 25th February 2016
  #3
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Actually, the M-2600 MKII has balanced inputs on both the mic inputs and tape returns. You are thinking maybe about it's for runner the M-2600.I used the same combination you are considering ( M-2600mkII and HD24-XR) and it held it's own. Especially if you manage to track to the HD24-XR with great pres/comps and used the M-2600 MKII for mixdown..!..It has great features and not a bad sounding console. ( if you wanna not go digital that is)..Good luck..

*BTW, I think the A&H GSR-24 does has inline capabilities via the optional analog card on TDIF D sub interface cables
Old 25th February 2016
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How about a nice old Soundcraft? (not a Spirit, a real Soundcraft, although I do believe the Ghost is a Spirit...)

Also, if you like the workflow of the GL2200/GSR24, you might want to look at a Midas Venice F32. It's a 24+4 desk with 6 auxes, 4 groups, LR+M masters and great overall functionality. It has lovely EQ's (by far the most bad-ass EQ you'll ever see in such a small desk) and they say the pre's come from the XL3... Whether they do or not, they sound just fine to me. I've only ever used one in live sound so I haven't compared the pre's yet.
Furthermore, it comes with a 32ch interface (32*32!) at 44.1 or 48 kHz, 24bit, through FW400. That doesn't help you with your HD24 but it might be interesting as a back-up recording medium, especially for live recording. Also, during mixdown you could run plug-ins as inserts on the desk, or run FX plug-ins sent from the auxes and returning into the stereo channels.

(and they come new for under 3000 euro's...)


Dutchy
Old 26th February 2016 | Show parent
  #5
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snatchman View Post
Actually, the M-2600 MKII has balanced inputs on both the mic inputs and tape returns. You are thinking maybe about it's for runner the M-2600.
If you read more closely, I actually *am* considering the MKII (it's in the title), but just NOT the MKI (because of mentioned unbalancedness)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Snatchman View Post
I used the same combination you are considering ( M-2600mkII and HD24-XR) and it held it's own. Especially if you manage to track to the HD24-XR with great pres/comps and used the M-2600 MKII for mixdown..!..It has great features and not a bad sounding console. ( if you wanna not go digital that is)..Good luck..

*BTW, I think the A&H GSR-24 does has inline capabilities via the optional analog card on TDIF D sub interface cables
Yeah, I do have a bunch of outboard pre's that I could use for location recordings with the HD24XR;
-Digimax LT (8 channels)
-GAP PRE-73
-Summit Audio 2BA-221
-Warm Audio WA12
-Joemeek VC1Q
-SPL Audio Channel One
-2x M-Audio DMP-3

One possible downside for me in regards to the M2600MKII is the depth; it's over 740mm deep, whereas my studiodesk is about 600mm deep.
This means that the A&H desks would fit, but both the Tascam and Soundtracs would 'hang' over'. Maybe it's acceptable, I dunno...

Regarding the Midas, nah, if I'm paying 3k for a desk, I might as well save up for the GSR24. (One sold today on Ebay, complete for a bit over 4k).
The desks I'm considering are all in the 500 or less range, as they're usually older.
Old 27th February 2016
  #6
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goof..Ok, missed that. For $500 you won't do much better than the M-2600 MKII. Especially with the features it has.( It was around $4000 new ( 24 channel).. Don't sound bad either as out of all the mid range consoles out at that time, I actually though it sounded better than most. I never did hear the Ghost console tho', but hear good things about them. Haven't heard the A&H GSR-24. It's an interesting looking console. I guess if I was in the market again, I would consider it and a RADAR recorder since you can get them at such good prices nowadays.( Not putting down the HD24-XR either as it's a good sounding piece for the money)..Good luck
Old 1st March 2016
  #7
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🎧 10 years
Snatchman, did you ever compare the Tascam vs. others?
Maybe vs. the Soundcraft Ghost (24 LE)?

I am seriously considering the Tascam, maybe mod it one day for better op-amps or something, but there are 2 major things that bug me:
1) phantom power per 8 channels only. (Of course, when using the desk only for mixdown, this is not an issue).
Something that the Topaz, A&H GL's and Ghost do have.

2) No phase switches per channel.
Something that the Topaz, A&H GL's and Ghost do have.

In general, the Ghost would have the most elaborate EQ (2x fully parametric), followed by the Topaz/M2600MKII and finally the GL's,as the GL is not an inline desk with a switchable monitor-EQ.
Then again, all that is moot when using the desk only for mix-down.

Aux-wise, I like the A&H setup the most; a set of 4 and a set of 2, that can ALL be switched pre or post. None of that "Aux 3 and 5 are handled by the knobs for 4 and 6, but you need to press a switch" crap.
Old 1st March 2016
  #8
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I use a Soundcraft 8000 and it's really good I have a 40 channel now, and one of the 2 32 channel version I own will go for sale soon..



Cheu
Old 2nd March 2016 | Show parent
  #9
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by cheu78 View Post
I use a Soundcraft 8000 and it's really good I have a 40 channel now, and one of the 2 32 channel version I own will go for sale soon..



Cheu
I'd like to keep it smaller than that. Those desks to be a lot wider than around 1m, right?
Old 2nd March 2016
  #10
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Sjeff's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Haven't worked with the other desks but I love the Topaz!
Good musical EQ's, perfect routing possibilities and (to my ear) good pre-amps.
Old 2nd March 2016 | Show parent
  #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Speeddemon View Post
I'd like to keep it smaller than that. Those desks to be a lot wider than around 1m, right?
Yep, about 1,68m for the 32 channel version.. but it's not a crazy large console after all imho..nothing like mci or SSL.. and it's not very deep.. only 80cm.. IME how deep it is might impact more the working space than being 30 cm wider.

But sounds very very good IMHO.



Cheu
Old 2nd March 2016 | Show parent
  #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Speeddemon View Post
Snatchman, did you ever compare the Tascam vs. others?
Maybe vs. the Soundcraft Ghost (24 LE)?

I am seriously considering the Tascam, maybe mod it one day for better op-amps or something, but there are 2 major things that bug me:
1) phantom power per 8 channels only. (Of course, when using the desk only for mixdown, this is not an issue).
Something that the Topaz, A&H GL's and Ghost do have.

2) No phase switches per channel.
Something that the Topaz, A&H GL's and Ghost do have.

In general, the Ghost would have the most elaborate EQ (2x fully parametric), followed by the Topaz/M2600MKII and finally the GL's,as the GL is not an inline desk with a switchable monitor-EQ.
Then again, all that is moot when using the desk only for mix-down.

Aux-wise, I like the A&H setup the most; a set of 4 and a set of 2, that can ALL be switched pre or post. None of that "Aux 3 and 5 are handled by the knobs for 4 and 6, but you need to press a switch" crap.
If you are only going to be using the desk just for mixing, then you may can do as I did. I was eventually only using my Tascam for mixing as I had collected enough outboard gear for tracking/mixing. I got rid of the Tascam and picked up an used DDA "S" console for cheap..Very good sounding console as it was designed for live, I fitted it in my studio flow and it work very well.! It's a simple layed out console, all modular, "thru-hole" topology, easy to mod and very "stand out'ish" as far as looks and awe goes.... It was around $15,000'ish new..Take a look..

https://www.google.com/search?q=dda+...AQIQQ&dpr=1.25
Old 2nd March 2016 | Show parent
  #13
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by cheu78 View Post
Yep, about 1,68m for the 32 channel version.. but it's not a crazy large console after all imho..nothing like mci or SSL.. and it's not very deep.. only 80cm.. IME how deep it is might impact more the working space than being 30 cm wider.

But sounds very very good IMHO.



Cheu
Yep, the depth is also an issue.
My current desk (on which the mixer would be) is about 60cm deep.
My Akai DPS24 fits nicely, as would the A&H boards.
The Topaz and Tascam would already 'hang over' at least 14cm.

@ Snatchman ; yeah, one of the few shortcomings of the Akai DPS24 is only 4 physical inserts, and no group or master inserts. So strapping a 2 bus compressor across the Master L&R would need to happen ITB with that thing.
The mixing desks I'm looking at at least have that functionality.

I would like to experiment with putting maybe my Compounder on the Master, very mildly compressing (2:1 or less), but with some Bass Enhance on.
Old 2nd March 2016 | Show parent
  #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Speeddemon View Post
Yep, the depth is also an issue.
My current desk (on which the mixer would be) is about 60cm deep.
My Akai DPS24 fits nicely, as would the A&H boards.
The Topaz and Tascam would already 'hang over' at least 14cm.

@ Snatchman ; yeah, one of the few shortcomings of the Akai DPS24 is only 4 physical inserts, and no group or master inserts. So strapping a 2 bus compressor across the Master L&R would need to happen ITB with that thing.
The mixing desks I'm looking at at least have that functionality.

I would like to experiment with putting maybe my Compounder on the Master, very mildly compressing (2:1 or less), but with some Bass Enhance on.
It has inserts. Actually, they are balanced in/out inserts. The 24 channel version is not much bigger than the M-2600 MKII as I had to work with limited space also.
Old 2nd March 2016 | Show parent
  #15
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snatchman View Post
It has inserts. Actually, they are balanced in/out inserts. The 24 channel version is not much bigger than the M-2600 MKII as I had to work with limited space also.
I dunno man.
You're talking about this table right?


That to me looks quite a bit bigger than the 1m06 that the Tascam M2600MKII (24 ch.) is.

The A&H GSR24 to me seems to tick all the boxes I need, also sizewise (1m12 x 61cm), but is out of my budget.

Topology wise the A&H GL2200 comes very close, including +48V, Mic/Line (Pad, Polarity and HPF switches per channel.

But the threads about the GL2200 in the studio are a bit old, so I was looking for 'up to date' experiences and opinions.

Snatchman; didn't you miss the polarity switches on the Tascam during mixdown?
Old 2nd March 2016 | Show parent
  #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Speeddemon View Post
I dunno man.
You're talking about this table right?


That to me looks quite a bit bigger than the 1m06 that the Tascam M2600MKII (24 ch.) is.

The A&H GSR24 to me seems to tick all the boxes I need, also sizewise (1m12 x 61cm), but is out of my budget.

Topology wise the A&H GL2200 comes very close, including +48V, Mic/Line (Pad, Polarity and HPF switches per channel.

But the threads about the GL2200 in the studio are a bit old, so I was looking for 'up to date' experiences and opinions.

Snatchman; didn't you miss the polarity switches on the Tascam during mixdown?
Yeah, that's it. It's about ( if I can remember correctly) 6" wider than the Tascam, but the Tascam is deeper..As far as the polarity switches goes, I try to do that stuff doing tracking.....Thing about the DDA, you could pull individual channels out and still continue using it. With the Tascam, if a channel went down, you either continued without that channel or pull the whole bank of eight and have it repaired..!
Old 5th March 2016 | Show parent
  #17
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snatchman View Post
Yeah, that's it. It's about ( if I can remember correctly) 6" wider than the Tascam, but the Tascam is deeper..As far as the polarity switches goes, I try to do that stuff doing tracking.....Thing about the DDA, you could pull individual channels out and still continue using it. With the Tascam, if a channel went down, you either continued without that channel or pull the whole bank of eight and have it repaired..!
I found out it was 1m40 x 75cm; so it's about 13" (!) wider than the Tascam (1m06 for the 24 channel.)

It looks like the GL2200 is in fact modular as well, but the Soundtracs doesn't seem to be.
Old 6th March 2016 | Show parent
  #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Speeddemon View Post
I found out it was 1m40 x 75cm; so it's about 13" (!) wider than the Tascam (1m06 for the 24 channel.)

It looks like the GL2200 is in fact modular as well, but the Soundtracs doesn't seem to be.
Hello..I don't think the GL2200 is fully modular. It seems to be on lines as the Tascam. Comes out in block of eight (8) at best. I guess that wouldn't be a big deal if the channel components are thru hole topology tho'..Thing is as I stated with the Tascam, if one channel goes out, you either have to continue using it with that channel down or pull the whole block of eight to repair that one channel. ..Work flow interrupted.....
Old 6th March 2016
  #19
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The GL2200 is NOT modular, it might have single cards for every channel inside..(I know the GL2400 is like that, but I'm not sure if the 2200 is the same).. but you can't take them out one at the time.
Anyway the 8K is really in another league of the forementioned desks imho.



Cheu
Old 8th March 2016 | Show parent
  #20
Gear Addict
 
🎧 5 years
Hi,

the GL2200 is modular inside - even the 19" mix-wizards have single boards for every channel. The Topaz is a single circuit board for the whole desk.

I did work on the GL-series a lot 10-20 years ago on concerts, and they never let me down. You should consider a 3000 series - they come with a nice meterbridge. The price is nearly the same these days.

If you want to have a "sound", I would also recommend to look out for old soundcraft RB200 / Delta desks.

The 8000 is a nice board, but channel seperation and crosstalk is really bad. Did you know that you can still download all the manuals on the soundcraft homepage?


Best Regards
Old 10th March 2016
  #21
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🎧 15 years
If you are near Cincinnati, PM me and I have a Tascam M2600 mkII 24 channel board with full meter bridge. I have been holding onto it as a spare but I could let it go.

Regards

It's a nice board.
Old 11th March 2016 | Show parent
  #22
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by livingloud View Post
Hi,

the GL2200 is modular inside - even the 19" mix-wizards have single boards for every channel. The Topaz is a single circuit board for the whole desk.

I did work on the GL-series a lot 10-20 years ago on concerts, and they never let me down. You should consider a 3000 series - they come with a nice meterbridge. The price is nearly the same these days.

If you want to have a "sound", I would also recommend to look out for old soundcraft RB200 / Delta desks.

The 8000 is a nice board, but channel seperation and crosstalk is really bad. Did you know that you can still download all the manuals on the soundcraft homepage?


Best Regards
As said the 2200 is not a modular desk. The INTERNAL cards are indeed single cards and "relatively easy" to service.. but a modular desk is a different thing imho.

I've used the 2200, the 2400 the 3000 series and the 4000 series or the 5000 (don't remember) from A&H.. and while they were very solid performers I can tell you that the Soundcraft 8000 sounds like a real console to me. Imho is in a different league. (I'm used to SSL, real Neve and MCI desks, and while the 8k might not be so "quiet" or at a neve level of course, I can tell you that sounds like a record to me when I mix on one)..

I own every manual for the 8000 as well as the schematics and spare parts (I own 3 of them).

Just my 0.02$,

Cheu
Old 11th March 2016 | Show parent
  #23
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by livingloud View Post
Hi,

the GL2200 is modular inside - even the 19" mix-wizards have single boards for every channel. The Topaz is a single circuit board for the whole desk.

I did work on the GL-series a lot 10-20 years ago on concerts, and they never let me down. You should consider a 3000 series - they come with a nice meterbridge. The price is nearly the same these days.

If you want to have a "sound", I would also recommend to look out for old soundcraft RB200 / Delta desks.

The 8000 is a nice board, but channel seperation and crosstalk is really bad. Did you know that you can still download all the manuals on the soundcraft homepage?


Best Regards
Thanks for the info. Did you compare the Topaz and the GL, soundwise?

I'm not looking for a particular sound of the desk...well, at least not to analytically clean and not smeared/dark either. I have a few 'color' preamps I can use.

@ firby ; nah, I'm in Europe. There's a guy selling an M2600MKII with meterbridge and there's a few GL2200's for sale as well (and a Soundtracs Topaz).
Old 11th March 2016 | Show parent
  #24
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🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Speeddemon View Post
Thanks for the info. Did you compare the Topaz and the GL, soundwise?

I'm not looking for a particular sound of the desk...well, at least not to analytically clean and not smeared/dark either. I have a few 'color' preamps I can use.

.
Sorry - I never heard (or mixed on) a Topaz.

You are looking for 20 year-old, cheap desks. They are often not maintained at all. So if I were you, I would choose something that is easy to repair. A&H are not too complicated (even if you have to pull out channels in groups of 8), but something like a Soundcraft Delta (or the mentioned 8000) are even easier to work on and you can find spare channel modules easily (especially for the Delta Series). Perhaps even a K3 would be in your price range.

Pulling out the complete circuit board of a desk is close to a nightmare, and if you have no soldering skills and damage it, the whole thing becomes a heavy doorstopper. Perhaps the sound quality is worth it. I donΒ΄t know.
Old 13th March 2016 | Show parent
  #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by firby View Post
If you are near Cincinnati, PM me and I have a Tascam M2600 mkII 24 channel board with full meter bridge. I have been holding onto it as a spare but I could let it go.

Regards

It's a nice board.
Firby...is that you..?......
Old 14th March 2016 | Show parent
  #26
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🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snatchman View Post
Firby...is that you..?......
Tis I. Hope you're well Snatchman.
Old 16th March 2016 | Show parent
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by firby View Post
Tis I. Hope you're well Snatchman.
Good deal....!....
Old 16th March 2016
  #28
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🎧 5 years
I bought a Zed24 for $600 a couple years back and use it with my HD24xr for exactly the use you describe. I've been really happy with it as it gives me all the routing options I need, I like the EQ and the board sounds good.
Old 23rd March 2016 | Show parent
  #29
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by firby View Post
If you are near Cincinnati, PM me and I have a Tascam M2600 mkII 24 channel board with full meter bridge. I have been holding onto it as a spare but I could let it go.

Regards

It's a nice board.
Hey Firby, I noticed you did recommend the Topaz to someone else in a much older thread. Did you ever compare it with your Tascam?

I'm still on the fence for a few reasons:

Topaz Project 8
Pro's=
  • made for studio
  • meterbridge
  • most users praise the EQ (and some the preamp)

Cons=
  • aux setup (not having actually 6 auxes available)
  • hard to service (one big PCB)
  • reports of cheap 'feel'
  • no HPF filter switch


GL2200
Pro's=
  • HPF switches per channel
  • Great versatile Aux-setup
  • 2 stereo returns on faders with EQ and aux-sends
  • possibly better built (with individual channel PCB cards)

Cons=
  • not really 24 channels in practical sense, as channels 15/16 (also as stereo channel) don't feature direct outs nor inserts.
  • master section set up for live, more than studio.
  • practically only 2 fx-returns, as stereo channels may need to be used as mic channels.
Old 24th March 2016 | Show parent
  #30
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🎧 15 years
No, I did not compare them directly.

Here is what I can advise.

If you are recording bands then you are going to want the best mic preamps you can get. Newer budget preamps in mixing boards are better than older budget preamps. This is because opamps have gotten more transparent, I think. That will effect the quality of your final mix perhaps the most. Even crummy standalone mic pres are generally better than cheap mixing board mic pres.

If you are not using the mic preamps then you look for good summing and eq.

Good desks have depth to the mix and low noise, that's what you will want eventually.

I have an older, perhaps noisier desk now than the Tascam. I recapped this desk and also rebuilt the power supply. It's pretty boss but the Tascam would hold it's own on quieter mixes I think. They probably all would. I personally like Yamaha MG boards as well for cheap stuff.

If you are going to make records then you probably need or will need a modular desk with removable channel strips at some point. Everything breaks eventually. All those one piece boards are nightmarish to work on. You have to unplug your entire studio and have probably multiple days of downtime to fix. On a modular board you can just remove the module and reroute. With an old board you can replace through hole components if you can get ahold of them.

I have a friend touring the world with music made on A&H ZED board. I would check that out too.

Regards. Good Luck over there!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Speeddemon View Post
Hey Firby, I noticed you did recommend the Topaz to someone else in a much older thread. Did you ever compare it with your Tascam?

I'm still on the fence for a few reasons:

Topaz Project 8
Pro's=
  • made for studio
  • meterbridge
  • most users praise the EQ (and some the preamp)

Cons=
  • aux setup (not having actually 6 auxes available)
  • hard to service (one big PCB)
  • reports of cheap 'feel'
  • no HPF filter switch


GL2200
Pro's=
  • HPF switches per channel
  • Great versatile Aux-setup
  • 2 stereo returns on faders with EQ and aux-sends
  • possibly better built (with individual channel PCB cards)

Cons=
  • not really 24 channels in practical sense, as channels 15/16 (also as stereo channel) don't feature direct outs nor inserts.
  • master section set up for live, more than studio.
  • practically only 2 fx-returns, as stereo channels may need to be used as mic channels.
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