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Big recorded sound out of a Gretch hollowbody w/ vintage bassman?
Old 14th January 2007
  #1
Here for the gear
 

Big recorded sound out of a Gretch hollowbody w/ vintage bassman?

Hi Folks,

When recording my guitar player, we never seem to get the tone we want. He plays a Gretch Hot Rod (hollowbody) through a vintage Fender Bassman 2-12. We're going for a big and warm Setzer type tone but it always tends to sound a little thin for his taste. Here's my gear, and any suggestions about mic placement, amp settings, or anything else would be awesome! Take care.

Logic Pro
Pres- UA M610, Presonus ADL 600
Mics- AEA R84 (ribbon), SM57, SM58, Shure KSM44, AKG C3000, Audix Elite 8 drum Mics
Old 14th January 2007
  #2
Lives for gear
 
softwareguy's Avatar
 

I think we need a little bit more info.

When you say "Hot Rod", I assume you mean the one with the TV Jones Filtertron pickups. If so, those aren't the problem, although they can be sensitive to pickup and pole height adjustment, with even small changes serving to bring the sound more "into focus" so to speak.

Does your guitarist use any slapback? A fat-sounding delay is definitely an important part of the organic Setzer sound.

Can you tell us which Bassman amp? Silverface, Blackface, Blonde, Brown? and if a Silverface, which model? These are all pretty different sounding amps.

What kind of speakers are in the cab? Do they have metal dustcaps?

Your pre's and mic's certainly shouldn't be thin sounding.
Old 14th January 2007
  #3
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Tapeworm's Avatar
 

Try micing the amp AND the guitar itself.
Old 14th January 2007
  #4
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by andrewd View Post
Hi Folks,

When recording my guitar player, we never seem to get the tone we want. He plays a Gretch Hot Rod (hollowbody) through a vintage Fender Bassman 2-12. We're going for a big and warm Setzer type tone but it always tends to sound a little thin for his taste. Here's my gear, and any suggestions about mic placement, amp settings, or anything else would be awesome! Take care.

Logic Pro
Pres- UA M610, Presonus ADL 600
Mics- AEA R84 (ribbon), SM57, SM58, Shure KSM44, AKG C3000, Audix Elite 8 drum Mics
I have a 6120 and I like it best thru my 2x12 enclosed cab with *gasp* G12T-75's. I didn't like V-30's or Greenvbacks for that combination... Open back cabs? As Borat would say 'not so much!'... Not sure of the cab you're refering to whether it's open or closed.
Old 14th January 2007
  #5
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djui5's Avatar
 

R84 through the M610 should do it. If not, it's something else, either the room or the player, or the rig, etc.
Old 14th January 2007
  #6
honestly, I like a thinner guitar in a mix...

Let the bass take over the bottom...just don't solo his track.
Old 14th January 2007
  #7
Gear Addict
 
sloanfiske's Avatar
 

it sounds like the closed back bassman 2x12 cab.

FWIW...this is what I might try.

try a combo of 2 or 3 mics. R84, KSM 44 and the 57.

I would most likely use the KSM in Cart mode off the 610 slightly off center on a cone and a 57 on the same speaker next to it just off the center on the other side. make sure to check polarity and move closer or further to taste.

If you have the room, stick the R84 about 3-4 feet back off the cab for room.

Mix to taste.
Old 14th January 2007
  #8
Gear Maniac
 

If the guitar sounds thick in the room....its probably mic placement.
Old 14th January 2007
  #9
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davedarling's Avatar
 

Hey andrewd -

For Brians guitars (on the rockabilly stuff) we use 2 bassman, split w/ an echo. For mics try this -

put your ribbon 1 foot out, dead center on the speaker, and your 57 off axis right on the grill. You can slide your ribbon farther from the center of your speaker to darken it up.

This is pretty much what we do, with RCA, 57(or 421) combo.

Most of the sound is the ribbon, the dynamic is fed in for bite.

also remember to turn the amp UP - a bassman sounds a little thin until it's working up a sweat.

good luck - Dave Darling
Old 14th January 2007
  #10
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max cooper's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by davedarling View Post
Hey andrewd -

For Brians guitars (on the rockabilly stuff) we use 2 bassman, split w/ an echo.
I think this is key; real stereo. Even if you mic the whole deal in mono, it plays the room right.
Old 14th January 2007
  #11
Gear Maniac
 

hey all here is the specs on the gear he uses.

(hey dave darling, its ronnie crutchers guitar rig. I bet it looks familiar.)
he's using :
Gretsch Hot Rod 6120 with TV Jones filtertrons
63 Blonde Bassman,
Bassman 2X12 Cabinet with celestion vintage 30s
Roland 303 space echo,
he also sometimes uses an overdrive at the top of the signal path.

He also likes to play really, really loud.

cheers
geoff
Old 14th January 2007
  #12
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Geoff Firebaugh View Post
hey all here is the specs on the gear he uses.
He also likes to play really, really loud.
Psychoacoustics at work. Unless you're doing playback at the same volume he plays at (probably over 120 dB), it isn't going to sound the same even if you captured it absolutely flat. So the trick to figure is the fake verite of the studio - make it sound at 85 dB like it did in the tracking room at 120 dB. The Munson-Fletcher curve stuff indicates things sound like there is more bass an highs at higher volumes, so you can mimic the effects with eq. There's also a weird acoustic compression thing that happens when you crank a lot of SPL in a room, which to my ears has always seemed to reduce perceived highs - then again, that could be the ear crying uncle. I like the Ashly SC-50 for an attempt to mimic that phenomenon.

Bear
Old 14th January 2007
  #13
Gear Addict
 
davedarling's Avatar
 

Hey Geoff -

That stuff should get it done. I've heard Ronnies rig before, and it sounds great.

I guess its down to mic placement, or room sound. I would get some poor soul to go into the room and move your ribbon around while the guitar player plays until something happens.
as far as the room, nothing makes a bad room sound worse like a ribbon mic.
putting a gobo 2 or 3 feet behind the ribbon, making a tent out of packing blankets over the whole rig... try it all. and of course...beer helps.

I thought of something else that might help - we use great river, and neve pres for Setzer, (I think your 610 should work fine) and we always end up pushing the pre -just sounds bigger to me. Remember..."the car goes fastest just before it blows up"

see ya - Dave Darling
Old 15th January 2007
  #14
Here for the gear
 

Thanks Dave and the rest of you!!! All that advise will help big time I'm sure. Ronnie's rig always sounds rockin' in the room, just getting it recorded properly has been hard. Looking forward to trying these ideas out. Any more ideas... keep em' coming!!!

D
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