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Vocal mic with best rejection from rest of stage Dynamic Microphones
Old 30th July 2014
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KEL View Post
Don, did you watch the Dave Rat mic test with the test tone earbud stuff?
Yes and there are some inaccuracies in it. It would have been much more accurate if he had first removed the grilled. A very small change in distance when you are that close could easily be significant.

But here's the deal ... take a OM7 and any other generally similar mic (dynamic or condenser and set the two side by side on a stand. Now put a speaker a foot behind them and play noise. Adjust the trims on both mics until the meters are identical on both mics. Now move the speaker back to 10 feet, still directly on axis. The two mics will still have the the same level as each other. Once you've set the gain to be the same mics simply "catch" the sound you throw at them, they don't go and "look" for it.

Yes there will be some small variation due to the differences in frequency response but since you are going to EQ the mic to whatever it is that you are looking for this doesn't mean much in the real world.

Will there be some difference in off axis response. Depends on how you look at it. But if you did the same test ... put the mics together, set the speaker off by 60 or 90 degrees and then adjust so that your gains are the same you would get the same result. But since you are likely to set the gain based on a mostly on-axis pickup there is where you will get some difference. So mics will vary in their ability to disregard side wash. In some cases that could mean a lot and in some cases it might mean nothing if your singer is standing right in front of the cymbals.

If the topic is feedback the primary mechanism may be more related to direct pickup of reflections from your face or from the back wall than from rejection of direct sound from your stage monitors. It all depends.
Old 31st July 2014
  #32
KEL
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I see. makes sense. If the diaphragm was closer to the grill where you sing, and the sound source earbud being relatively small & focused, then small distances would matter more. inverse square law at work. And if the mic element was indeed close to the grill, it would be further away, perhaps double the distance from the same sound source facing the back of the mic...vs another mic. Of course, the mic's phasing design then comes into play but distance with this test method may account for a portion of the variances?

Except for polar pattern and tonal differences, all miss obey the inverse square law equally. Polar pattern and tonal differences would account for why a mic like the KMS105 has way more stage wash of the bandstand vs HyperC e835 for example, given they are achieving the same gain level
Old 31st July 2014
  #33
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Wow - got quite a thread going. Very informative. I do own a Beyer M88 and have found it to have better rejection but has such a robust low end (or perhaps its the proximity effect) that I find it needs a lot of eq to make my voice sit in the mix. Since it's a different FOH engineer and a different system every time we play I do want to find a mic that naturally helps my voice pop in the mix without major surgery.

The SM7 is actually one of my favorite dynamics for vocals but it requires a lot of gain and some of the sub par consoles at FOH either don't have the gain or sound awful when providing as much as it needs.

+1 for whoever mentioned the Beyer M500. I've owned one for awhile and it's the mic I use when I want to do a vocal take with the monitors on in the studio. Mine is sitting right on the edge of just a little bit dirty but not quite distorted yet so I'm hesitant to take it on gigs.

Haven't tried the Beta 58 yet or a 57. Did use an Audix i5 the other day and thought that it was a great mic for vocals.

I've ordered 2 Telefunken M80's as they were high on my list from personal experience of live recording. I remember a few times artists brought them through and we would just solo up the vocal mic and be amazed at what we didn't hear! If they don't work, the OM7 is high on my list (really starting to dig the Audix mics).

Yes, mic technique is crucial and that's taken me awhile to adapt. When I said I was a "studio guy" I meant that I'm used to singing into condensers mics and having the freedom to move around a little. Now that I'm taking the songs live, it's taken a while for both me and the other vocalist to adapt but I'm doing a lot better. Main problem is I do want to turn my head to the side a little during parts where the other vocalist and I are really locking on to a part. I know that I'm going to have to stick on the M80 like glue so maybe I'll just stop looking at her! I'm also working on a midi switching system for my pedal board so that I don't have to look down and get ready for my pedal cue at the end of a verse or chorus going into a solo.

And, of course, the main problem is that we're playing smaller clubs where I'm 5 feet from the drums, 3 feet from 2 guitar amps and yes, often in front of a brick wall!

Thanks for all of the input, everyone. I'll let you know how it turns out.
Old 27th August 2014
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dboomer View Post
Yes and there are some inaccuracies in it. It would have been much more accurate if he had first removed the grilled. A very small change in distance when you are that close could easily be significant.
Hi,

sorry, but I don't understand. Do you sing on the mic with the grill on or off?

I think this is like when car magazine compare two cars on acceleration and one is quicker and one is slower. And someone says: "But wait - if you remove all the seats, aircondition and all those heavy parts to make the car lighter, it would actually win the race!!" Yes. But is the normal user of the car going to do that? I don't think so. Same as the normal user won't remove the grill of the mic.

If the grill let's you sing closer to the element on the axis, then it's a fact. I think that by doing that you can gain some advantages as well as some disadvantages. Also, I don't thing that the outside noise (backround noise that the mic is picking up such as guitar amps etc.) has anything to do with how far the grill is from the element on the sides or on the bottom. The distance from the element to the mic's grill at those areas is negligible compared to the normal distance to the backround noise sources (i.e. how far and how loud is the guitar amp from the vocal mic).
Old 27th August 2014
  #35
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The Heil vocal mic has the tightest pick up pattern of any mic that I have used.
It was actually too tight for some singers who would wander to the side of the mic a bit, and the signal would just dissapear.
A bit prone to plosives when right up on it, but the top was pretty smooth.
Loud as hell as well. Pretty much twice as loud as a 58, with about half the feedback.
Not as rugged as a 58 though, we had a couple go down after maybe 2 years of 6/7 nights a week
Old 27th August 2014
  #36
KEL
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cooler23 View Post
Hi,

sorry, but I don't understand. Do you sing on the mic with the grill on or off?

I think this is like when car magazine compare two cars on acceleration and one is quicker and one is slower. And someone says: "But wait - if you remove all the seats, aircondition and all those heavy parts to make the car lighter, it would actually win the race!!" Yes. But is the normal user of the car going to do that? I don't think so. Same as the normal user won't remove the grill of the mic.

If the grill let's you sing closer to the element on the axis, then it's a fact. I think that by doing that you can gain some advantages as well as some disadvantages. Also, I don't thing that the outside noise (backround noise that the mic is picking up such as guitar amps etc.) has anything to do with how far the grill is from the element on the sides or on the bottom. The distance from the element to the mic's grill at those areas is negligible compared to the normal distance to the backround noise sources (i.e. how far and how loud is the guitar amp from the vocal mic).
Yes, you misunderstood the spirit of what Don meant about the grills. First, did you watch the Rat video where he places the earbuds against the grills of different mics to test for pickup, rejection and gain? Don's point, which didn't occur to me at the time, was about relative distances the element is to the grill. On this test with such a small sound source, even tiny differences from grill to element could make for widely varying levels...standard inverse square law stuff.

If you took the grills off and measured the sound source from the mic element itself, then you'd find more similarities between the designs.
An element that is close to the front grill is further from the back, no? Might that account for at least a portion of the differences in rejection levels in addition to design?
Old 27th August 2014
  #37
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Right. Simple inverse square at work here and at those tiny distances a 1/4 - 1/2" offset could make a huge difference. I'm certainly not saying that it isn't a good faith effort. But it could be done with more care. I'm also not ruling out that even if done in a more scientific manner you might end up with very similar results ... but I would rather see it done that way.
Old 28th August 2014
  #38
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Hey Don,

I think over the years that this is one of the only subjects I have ever disagreed with you on

With respect to feedback (which the OP isn't trying to fix), Empirical testing has shown that just switching out a set of SM58's for a set of ND767a's allows the vocal levels to be significantly higher in SPL.

Hyper/Super cardioid microphones do greatly reduce the bleed from the stage area into the vocal microphones IME. Be aware that microphones like the ND767a and OM7 require the vocalist to stay right on the grill. They also tend to get tinny and thin if you sing from a 6" away or more.... especially female singers.

I totally agree with Don's physics explanation. There are other factors going on here though that can be easily tested in a real life test IME.
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