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feedback destroyer Utility Software
Old 8th March 2014
  #1
Gear Nut
 

feedback destroyer

Im looking for advise on what feed back destroyer to go for. Quite offten my band has to mix our selfs and im thinking this could help. We have eqs for every out put and an allen and health mix wiz desk or sometimes a makie dl1608. We also usually have 4 foldback outputs going as well as LR foh.
Prefer some thing easy to use and under $500
Old 8th March 2014
  #2
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mixer mixer's Avatar
IMO I find "feedback destroyers" very gimmicky, the 31 band GEQ's do a much better job. How are your mics & speakers positioned?
Old 8th March 2014
  #3
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Foh always a little infront of the vocal mics. Fold backs on the floor directly in front of the mic. By in front I mean in front of the back of the mics from the performance perspective. I suppose the normal way??I probably shoulg mention its not a huge problem for us some rooms are obviously alot better than others and I thought it might take care of any issues that might come up mid set.
Old 8th March 2014
  #4
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Sabine offered a device years ago called "Power Q" that had an "auto ring out" and proprietary feed back suppression. As I remember it was a 20 bit digital OS and also had parametric filters that could replace the graphic adjustments resulting from the "auto ring out". The manufacturer of the mother circuit board ceased production consequently Sabine terminated it's flag-ship quick set up device. You may be able to pick up one on Ebay but unfortunately they are not available very often.
Old 8th March 2014
  #5
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Sabine FBX (and Graphi-Q) devices are available. They do a decent job of quickly identifying and notching (with very narrow filters... 1/10th octave) ringing freqs. There are several available on eBay. Graphi-Q2 seems to have a computer interface, though I've never used one. I have used mono FBX 2400 units, and currently carry a Graphi-Q in my FOH rack.

HB
Old 8th March 2014
  #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Animal2612 View Post
Im looking for advise on what feed back destroyer to go for. Quite offten my band has to mix our selfs and im thinking this could help. We have eqs for every out put and an allen and health mix wiz desk or sometimes a makie dl1608. We also usually have 4 foldback outputs going as well as LR foh.
Prefer some thing easy to use and under $500
They all add noise, reduce system gain and jack with your tone. Set your PA up correctly, use proper gain structure, you will not need one.
Old 8th March 2014
  #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hbphotoav View Post
Sabine FBX (and Graphi-Q) devices are available. They do a decent job of quickly identifying and notching (with very narrow filters... 1/10th octave) ringing freqs. There are several available on eBay. Graphi-Q2 seems to have a computer interface, though I've never used one. I have used mono FBX 2400 units, and currently carry a Graphi-Q in my FOH rack.

HB
Hey, I have two of their high end units pulled out of an install. Make me an offer and they are yours. They have been sitting in the "sell this used stuff rack" for about four years.
Old 8th March 2014
  #8
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Are you looking to insert a feedback destroyer on one input, such as the lead vocal mic, or to put it across the entire mix? If the problem is primarily one input then it may make more sense to address just that one input and thus not have any filtering the unit applies affecting the other sources.

Do you have any equalization in the current system? Not only might any EQ being applied affect feedback but if you have a parametric equalizer that might allow you to dial in a narrow filter at a specific frequency that would then allow you to do the same basic thing a feedback 'destroyer' does.

Before adding a feedback destroyer you might want to try to figure out what is causing the feedback and if you can address it in some other way, be that the microphone used or its aiming, the monitor locations and aiming relative to the mics, the mic location relative to walls and the ceiling or whatever. Not only may you be able to avoid the feedback rather than trying to address it after it happens, but you might learn something along the way.

Sabine still offers several FBX 'Feedback Exterminator' models and a number of system processors include some form of automatic feedback elimination.
Old 8th March 2014
  #9
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Wyllys's Avatar
 

I use the Sabine GraphiQ's, one channel for each mix. But here's the key:


DO NOT THINK OF THEM AS FEEDBACK DESTROYERS.

Use them as "automatic parametric EQ's. The GraphiQ will quickly set a few critical filters for you. You can then lock them down so you don't get the "program devouring" that is a consequence of "feedback destroyers". Leave a couple of filters in dynamic mode to ride herd on any transients and you're good to go.

The above is a simplified look at APEQ. There are further tweaks which can easily be done but to go through them now would just be TMI for one post.
Old 8th March 2014
  #10
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Originally Posted by ASCMe View Post
They all add noise, reduce system gain and jack with your tone. Set your PA up correctly, use proper gain structure, you will not need one.
I always wonder when i see answers like this.

First ... gain structure has zero to do with feedback.

So assuming you "set up your PA correctly", as soon as a single microphone moves even inches the frequencies that feedback can and\ cannot occur change. So how do you set a PA up correctly to avoid this?
Old 8th March 2014
  #11
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Animal

Here's my advice. First select good units ... Sabine, DBX and Peavey make excellent units. I would recommend setting all the filter choices to "dynamic" and not "static" as the frequencies of interest change with any microphone movement. You'll get the best results using these units on inputs (channel inserts)and not on outputs.

Now you still need to do your best to set up your system. you'll still need to aim your speakers and mics correctly and you'll still benefit from singing as close to the mics as physically possible. The better you can do that, the better the feedback managers will work. You should expect to see probably a 6 dB to 12 dB improvement in GBF
Old 9th March 2014
  #12
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Electrolytic's Avatar
 

where is the feedback occurring in the monitors or FOH system?

are you using a graphic on FOH?

are you using a graphic on every monitor?
Old 9th March 2014
  #13
Gear Nut
 

I have eqs on every out put (foh and fb). I have a pretty good understanding of mic placment and rejection from a cardiod pattern. And how different rooms behave. Bigger shows with an engineer are fine as are most smaller gigs. But occasionally we get gigs with no sound check and not muchl set up time. They're not ideal but unfortunately in my lil town of adelaide Australia u have to take what u can get. I suppose the question is more can I use fb suppression as a quick easy alternative when time is limited and we need to get going asap.
I like the idea of using them on a channel insert as usually its only 1 or 2 mics causing the issue.
Old 9th March 2014
  #14
Gear Addict
 

My only experience is with the Behringer units, they were so useless it was sickening. They couldn't "catch" a ringing frequency until it was very very loud. I threw all 3 of them in the trash but kept the power cords as it was the only useful part of the whole unit.

People who's opinion I trust speak well of the Sabine and Peavey units.
Old 9th March 2014
  #15
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Are you taking along with your own fb monitors? If your taking a DL1608 with graphics on the outs or even outboard graphics along with your own monitors the rung out settings recalled every time it should be fairly in the ball park.

are there any other tech variables that are changing? are you using the same mics everytime? on the same people?
Old 9th March 2014
  #16
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Wyllys's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tommy Salami View Post
My only experience is with the Behringer units, they were so useless it was sickening. They couldn't "catch" a ringing frequency until it was very very loud. I threw all 3 of them in the trash but kept the power cords as it was the only useful part of the whole unit.

People who's opinion I trust speak well of the Sabine and Peavey units.

I'll say that the Behringer units are not at all "user-friendly", at least to make them usable. But...

They can be made usable. You have to do a lot of work programming them and the "automatic" part of the process requires a whole lot of user support...kind of rendering the automatic less so.

I've used them mainly in permanent installations as a recallable PEQ device. They've served well in this role. But units like the GraphiQ make them look silly when it comes to throw-and-go live sound.

Where's the Dumpster you tossed them into???
Old 9th March 2014
  #17
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The best feedback eliminator I know of is a 'good' sound engineer...someone who knows what he's doing and can identify frequency by ear...because everyone who calls himself a sound engineer should be able to do that.

If you start relying on these crutches you will never get to be one of those guys...
Old 9th March 2014
  #18
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monocluster's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Samc View Post
The best feedback eliminator I know of is a 'good' sound engineer...someone who knows what he's doing and can identify frequency by ear...because everyone who calls himself a sound engineer should be able to do that.

If you start relying on these crutches you will never get to be one of those guys...
I have to agree with Samc here... when I see a feedback destroyer in someone's rack, it immediately causes me to have doubts about their mixing ability.
I'm not saying that everyone who owns one can't mix, but in the vast majority of cases they're slapped into a poorly spec'd/ deployed / tuned system as a "band aid." no pun intended... These are usually the same places where I find all kinds of fun shapes drawn on their GEQs
Old 9th March 2014
  #19
Gear Nut
 

Again I have eqs. And many of them and I know how to use them. When im mixing alone (other bands) I have no issues with them. Although with the dl1608 I do seem to find them alot harder to get right. But thats another issue all together. I looking for a back up. I play drums and in my band im really the only one with a decent understanding of setting a loud gig in a small venue. So I have to tune the room and get a basic mix from advise from the other guys. We also use sequencing so I have a truck load to worry about. Im looking for a back up plan when im having issues and i dont have time to fix them.
Old 9th March 2014
  #20
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Wyllys's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Animal2612 View Post
Again I have eqs. And many of them and I know how to use them. When im mixing alone (other bands) I have no issues with them. Although with the dl1608 I do seem to find them alot harder to get right. But thats another issue all together. I looking for a back up. I play drums and in my band im really the only one with a decent understanding of setting a loud gig in a small venue. So I have to tune the room and get a basic mix from advise from the other guys. We also use sequencing so I have a truck load to worry about. Im looking for a back up plan when im having issues and i dont have time to fix them.
GraphiQ.

If you want, you can simply use a little Netbook at your playing position and make tweaks on the fly. But if you want something to ride herd on things for you without being futzy or "eating program", the Sabine units are the best I've come across....an actual "automatic EQ" rather than a "destroyer". You can also store curves for your use, load them as needed and save some time by having a variety of basic templates.

While they can be spendy new, I pick mine up as they come out of installs for about 15% of the new cost.
Old 9th March 2014
  #21
Gear Addict
 

As many have stated, good speaker and mic deployment goes a long way here. However I think all of us have dealt with roaming performers or very poor-technique performers who do their best to thwart our efforts at controlling feedback. I too see one of these in my future as a back up to the EQ's. But only for those folks who insist on making my day long.
Old 9th March 2014
  #22
S21
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S21's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Animal2612 View Post
I have eqs on every out put (foh and fb). I have a pretty good understanding of mic placment and rejection from a cardiod pattern. And how different rooms behave. Bigger shows with an engineer are fine as are most smaller gigs. But occasionally we get gigs with no sound check and not muchl set up time. They're not ideal but unfortunately in my lil town of adelaide Australia u have to take what u can get. I suppose the question is more can I use fb suppression as a quick easy alternative when time is limited and we need to get going asap.
I like the idea of using them on a channel insert as usually its only 1 or 2 mics causing the issue.
If you want to give it a go, I can post you a FBQ100.

Behringer: SHARK FBQ100
http://www.behringer.com/assets/FBQ100_M_EN.pdf

The FBQ seems equivalent in capability to the feedback catching in the driverack PX that I have. I use neither these days. If you have an ipad then for about $300 you can get the hardware/software/mic to run a smaart-like transfer function. This lets me tune the PA while playing background music. No more pink noise.

But I 100% get where you are coming from. Pre-feedback can be heard and dealt with by someone paying attention at the mixer. But if there is nobody at the mixer....


Terms:
Send the FBQ back after a couple of months. I'm in Canberra postcode 2612.
If it gets lost or damaged, that's ok, no need to replace.
Old 9th March 2014
  #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Animal2612 View Post
Again I have eqs. And many of them and I know how to use them. When im mixing alone (other bands) I have no issues with them. Although with the dl1608 I do seem to find them alot harder to get right. But thats another issue all together. I looking for a back up. I play drums and in my band im really the only one with a decent understanding of setting a loud gig in a small venue. So I have to tune the room and get a basic mix from advise from the other guys. We also use sequencing so I have a truck load to worry about. Im looking for a back up plan when im having issues and i dont have time to fix them.
It seems that what you really need is a dedicated sound guy for your band because if you don't have time to take care of feedback issues how can you dedicate time to producing a good mix?
Old 9th March 2014
  #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dboomer View Post
I always wonder when i see answers like this.

First ... gain structure has zero to do with feedback.

So assuming you "set up your PA correctly", as soon as a single microphone moves even inches the frequencies that feedback can and\ cannot occur change. So how do you set a PA up correctly to avoid this?
Boomer. By setting up the system correctly, I mean the speakers are in their correct positions relative to the band and the room. The microphones selected can accommodate the monitors and placement. The monitors selected can accommodate the band, stage set, mics, etc.

They should eliminate the possibilities of acoustic feedback and electronic feedback first and not use these devices as a crutch. With all due respect to Peavey, JR, etc., I have never been in a touring or contract install situation where a Feedback Ferret or something similar was essential. Maybe I have not been subject to the right (wrong) situation yet. The times I have gone into a club or church to do damage control, those items have been installed out of ignorance and/or common sense industry practices, replacing FOH and/or MON eqs. I have seen/heard people blow up their PAs (more commonly hi-f drivers) with auto set up wizards, letting the processors ring out the system. It's too risky. If I were a venue owner, I certainly would not let anyone use them with my PA, especially if the band had no idea about my system gain, headroom, etc.
Old 9th March 2014
  #25
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Originally Posted by ASCMe View Post
Boomer. By setting up the system correctly, I mean the speakers are in their correct positions relative to the band and the room. The microphones selected can accommodate the monitors and placement. The monitors selected can accommodate the band, stage set, mics, etc.
That may sound good in theory but as soon as a single mic moves the physical aspects of correct setup have all changed and you no longer have that correct setup. That's why feedback managers (operating with dynamic filters) can be so valuable. They have the ability to change as the setup changes

Quote:
They should eliminate the possibilities of acoustic feedback and electronic feedback first and not use these devices as a crutch. With all due respect to Peavey, JR, etc., I have never been in a touring or contract install situation where a Feedback Ferret or something similar was essential. Maybe I have not been subject to the right (wrong) situation yet. The times I have gone into a club or church to do damage control, those items have been installed out of ignorance and/or common sense industry practices, replacing FOH and/or MON eqs.
You should certainly do your best to set up the system as best you can ... But the OP was specifically asking about FBX when there is no opportunity to dial-in in advance. So if your setup gets you more GBF than you need the feedback manager simply sits out of the circuit but if feedback should occur it can automatically step in. What's the problem with that?

Quote:
I have seen/heard people blow up their PAs (more commonly hi-f drivers) with auto set up wizards, letting the processors ring out the system. It's too risky. If I were a venue owner, I certainly would not let anyone use them with my PA, especially if the band had no idea about my system gain, headroom, etc.
Wizards that attempt to EQ the system generally operate differently than the auto measurement systems in feedback managers. Feedback managers never boost EQ so it is not possible that they could contribute to blowing up any system and if they have set any filters than by definition using one would lessen the chance of blowing up a system.

I think the problem is that you are grouping some things together that are not part the way feedback managers ( well at least good ones) operate and blaming them for problems they simply do not create.
Old 9th March 2014
  #26
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saggsy's Avatar
 

I think everyone here has added to the discussion in a relatively constructive way.

Some people haven't read the whole OP posts - Animal is the drummer in the band and also sets up their own PA, and gets a mix happening - albeit slightly rough as he can't manipulate the mix at all once they're playing.

The ideal solution would be to have an engineer mix every gig. This is not possible due to the length of time which the band plays and also the budget constraints to actually pay an engineer that is bothered to hang around 'on their own' behind a desk for 5-6hrs, only to then enjoy the efforts of packing all the gear up at until about 2:00am in the morning.

If Animal were to go down the path of getting a feedback suppressor Im guessing that he might get something of a good brand (Sabine, DBX, Peavey) for around $500 second hand - use it minimally and spend probably a couple of hand fulls of gigs before actually getting it setup to do what he wants.

I am actually an engineer and good friend of Animal. I'd love to get out more often and engineer for him but having a wife and kids that do not see me enough as it is with my day job commitments and the fact that his band don't want to 'split' the gig money as they don't see the point in having an engineer, especially since Animal can set everything up and get it going, it leaves Animal in the position of trying to tame the odd, out of control feedback scream - which he can't always pull out quick enough manually because otherwise the drums would have to stop to enable him to get to the desk and control the feedback.

So hence the question as to which feedback suppressor does the best and most transparent job whilst only costing around $500?

Does anyone have this answer? Or would you prefer to add more comment on what he 'should' be doing?

saggsy
Old 10th March 2014
  #27
Gear Nut
 

I tried one of these shark units ages ago. Maybe I didnt get the settings right because I found I had better gbf with out it. Did u manage to get successful results s21? Thanks for the offer. That's pretty cool of u.
Old 10th March 2014
  #28
S21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Animal2612 View Post
I tried one of these shark units ages ago. Maybe I didnt get the settings right because I found I had better gbf with out it. Did u manage to get successful results s21? Thanks for the offer. That's pretty cool of u.
I got about 6dB more gbf with the behringer. I think the same can be had by flattening the response of the PA in the room.

While they are working you can sometimes see that they have silently swapped filters in and out. If someone does something really bad (feedback-wise, like dangling a mic in front of a monitor) the PA will always shreak, but the fbq will catch it in less than a second. Kind of like if you had a soundman but he was busy chatting up a girl instead of watching the band. :-)

The feedback suppressor in the driverack PX doesn't seem to be materially different from the behringer in it's behaviour.
Old 10th March 2014
  #29
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Electrolytic's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by saggsy View Post
I think everyone here has added to the discussion in a relatively constructive way.

Some people haven't read the whole OP posts - Animal is the drummer in the band and also sets up their own PA, and gets a mix happening - albeit slightly rough as he can't manipulate the mix at all once they're playing.

The ideal solution would be to have an engineer mix every gig. This is not possible due to the length of time which the band plays and also the budget constraints to actually pay an engineer that is bothered to hang around 'on their own' behind a desk for 5-6hrs, only to then enjoy the efforts of packing all the gear up at until about 2:00am in the morning.

If Animal were to go down the path of getting a feedback suppressor Im guessing that he might get something of a good brand (Sabine, DBX, Peavey) for around $500 second hand - use it minimally and spend probably a couple of hand fulls of gigs before actually getting it setup to do what he wants.

I am actually an engineer and good friend of Animal. I'd love to get out more often and engineer for him but having a wife and kids that do not see me enough as it is with my day job commitments and the fact that his band don't want to 'split' the gig money as they don't see the point in having an engineer, especially since Animal can set everything up and get it going, it leaves Animal in the position of trying to tame the odd, out of control feedback scream - which he can't always pull out quick enough manually because otherwise the drums would have to stop to enable him to get to the desk and control the feedback.

So hence the question as to which feedback suppressor does the best and most transparent job whilst only costing around $500?

Does anyone have this answer? Or would you prefer to add more comment on what he 'should' be doing?

saggsy
as Wyllys has been pushing Sabine products

SABINE FBX SOLO SL- 820 on roaming vocal. a few dynamic filters lock no more.
Old 10th March 2014
  #30
270182
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I will sell you two ADF1201s for $500 EA all day long.
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