The No.1 Website for Pro Audio
 Search This Thread  Search This Forum  Search Reviews  Search Gear Database  Search Gear for sale  Search Gearslutz Go Advanced
What Do You Want to Know About Live Sound But Are Too Afraid To Ask? Dynamic Microphones
Old 19th April 2014
  #121
Lives for gear
 
edva's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by guitarua View Post
Any suggestions on SDC that suppress feedback very well?
In that category, Shure KSM 137 does a pretty good job.
Old 19th April 2014
  #122
Lives for gear
 
Wyllys's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by guitarua View Post
I agree. The other issue is that I have a couple of guitar I won't put electronics in. Too old and fragile and not worth it for the sound they will reproduce.

Any suggestions on SDC that suppress feedback very well?

Thanks all who have chimed in! All the info is great.
Feedback is a system phenomenon and as such will have constantly shifting parameters depending on the setup. Suffice to say that the salient features are proper positioning of mic and monitor, overall system deployment and tuning and as mentioned..the ability of the player to put out a usable amount of sound and maintain a proper relationship with the mic.

Using a pickup for the sound in the monitor and a mic for the main mix is handy, and the ability to blend the two as needed is cool. Any good SDC will work as well as any other given proper positioning, a capable and experienced player and a system properly deployed and tuned.

Without all these considerations, choice of mic may make little difference if the other factors are what comprise the failure mode.
Old 20th April 2014
  #123
Here for the gear
 

How do power amps work?

I've tried to research on the web but am left confused...my question is something like this...if you have a power amp for a passive speaker....and it's a 500 watt continuous rated, does that mean it draws 500 watts from the 110/120 outlet? If not does it draw a nominal amount say 100 watts (made up # ) and step it up to make it to the 500 watts?

On the same line of thinking...if I have active speakers...and say it's a 300watt continuous output...does it pull 300 watts from the electrical circuit, or does it draw say 50 watts(random # pulled out of my backside)and step it up to 300 watts?

And my other question is this; if any amp is set to unity output...is that considered the max continuous output?

I am just trying to make sure i understand what and how much can actually go on one basic 15 amp circuit...

If there is a good resource I should reference, please just point me to a link and i'll do the reading!

I appreciate any help I can get on this.
Old 20th April 2014
  #124
Here for the gear
 
Sparkimus Prime's Avatar
 

Passing Audio over BNC (XLR to BNC conversion)

I also posted this under "A thread for asking the things you should know by now but don't"...

Ok, so I work at this venue, and like many venues that have shows 4+ times per week, they have a lot of messed up gear, and strange, quirky setups and installations. I replaced their messed up console the other day, and while I was installing the new one, I came across something I have never seen before. All of the XLR runs coming from the stage are converted to BNC (at some point) and then back to XLR right before the XLR Male side going into the console pre-amps. Now, I don't have a ton of experience doing live sound, so I don't know if this is a standard or common practice? The system "works" (signal arrives @ the board, passes +48v, etc.), but I don't get WHY it works (or why it should)... I mean, BNC is basically just coax (2-conductor) & XLR is 3 conductor, right? I mean, even if you translated the positive & negative terminals from the XLR to the BNC core (conductor) & the shield respectively (or vise-versa), you would lose the ground (or have to "manufacture" an artificial ground...), & you can't just disconnect the ground, otherwise the phantom power wouldn't work, so you would have to lose the + or the - (or combine them), which defeats the purpose of balanced cables... & then there's the impedance conversion issue. Microphone impedance is at least 150 Ohms and BNC operates @ 75 Ohms or 50 Ohms... (That's me, hitting myself in the head... with a hammer)

So, is this a common practice, and, if so, why? Has anyone else ever seen this before?? Wouldn't converting from XLR to BNC for the purposes of transmitting audio signals result in signal degradation and/or compromise in some fashion? (I have seen the opposite of this (BNC to XLR) for word clock signals... Presumably this is for extending the range of a BNC word clock cable over a greater distance because the XLR is less susceptible to noise/signal degradation than coax...?)

(The reason I said the system "works" earlier is because there are several issues at this particular venue, and the cause(s) of these issues aren't readily apparent. I'm trying to troubleshoot and stabilize the system, and eliminate all possible culprits for these issues.)
Old 21st April 2014
  #125
Gear Nut
 

@Sparkimus

First of all.. this is not common practice in any concert venue. Industry standard is using a multicore cable. This is either a fixed system multicore cable, or temporary in a permanent spot. Brands like Harting, LK and Socapex are very common for this in europe.

The situation you encountered can work, but is not fail-safe. First of all, you wouldn't be able to safely put Phantom power on any channel (assuming every connector is only connected to + and - of the XLR). This can be remedied by having an active stage-rack or monitor desk provide Phantom. Alternatively, they can avoid using anything phantom powered.

Impedance wise it's a case of: "it depends"
Microphones will work through any cable. However it will affect the sound quality, and gain needed to actually get sound, and as a result increase base noise. Keep in mind that using BNC connectors isnt as bad if the cable behind it is 150 Ohms.

You will however lose the benefits of balanced cables. As a result there is a higher risk of ground buzzes and magnetic reception on the cables. A classic example here in the Netherlands is being able to hear Radio Moscow when your unbalanced cable is exactly the right lenght.

On the other hand, balanced cables have the risk of transferring ground buzz to any ground connected equipment. Last week I was working for a rental company in a venue where we were supposedly on a "clean group" PA was fine, but my monitors sounded like refrigerators. Turned out the House PA was on a different ground which transferred through the stage-rack to my analog desk. Disconnecting the earth to the PA solved the issue, but did result in an unbalanced signal to the PA. There was no noticable degradation on that signal.
Old 21st April 2014
  #126
Here for the gear
 
Sparkimus Prime's Avatar
 

Thanks @ Samlow! That is what I suspected... it just kinda seems like "bad form" to me...
Old 22nd April 2014
  #127
Here for the gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wyllys View Post
Feedback is a system phenomenon and as such will have constantly shifting parameters depending on the setup. Suffice to say that the salient features are proper positioning of mic and monitor, overall system deployment and tuning and as mentioned..the ability of the player to put out a usable amount of sound and maintain a proper relationship with the mic.

Using a pickup for the sound in the monitor and a mic for the main mix is handy, and the ability to blend the two as needed is cool. Any good SDC will work as well as any other given proper positioning, a capable and experienced player and a system properly deployed and tuned.

Without all these considerations, choice of mic may make little difference if the other factors are what comprise the failure mode.


Thanks! Where is the ideal monitor placement for a KSM137? Or would you forego monitors?
Old 22nd April 2014
  #128
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by generalee73 View Post
I've tried to research on the web but am left confused...my question is something like this...if you have a power amp for a passive speaker....and it's a 500 watt continuous rated, does that mean it draws 500 watts from the 110/120 outlet? If not does it draw a nominal amount say 100 watts (made up # ) and step it up to make it to the 500 watts?
No. At the point that you ACTUALLY develop 500W continuous it likely draws 2-4 times that. But you never actually develop 500W continuous from a 500W power amp if music is your source. Music always has some dynamics to it. YMMV.

If the amp has an agency sticker (UL/ETL) then it has a power figure printed near the power connection. This is the amount of power it uses to produce 1/8th of the rated continuous power. It's usually a pretty good bet that you will be somewhere close to this figure when running music through the system and just starting to hit the limiter LEDs. That said you might draw double on sub amps with very compressed music and driving the snot out of them.

That said it never hurts to have more available than you'll ever need.
Old 23rd April 2014
  #129
Lives for gear
 
edva's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by guitarua View Post
Thanks! Where is the ideal monitor placement for a KSM137? Or would you forego monitors?
It is a cardioid pattern mic, so best would be to use only one monitor, at 180 degrees, i.e. directly behind and parallel to the position of the capsule.
For loud levels, a DI works better with stage monitors, but with moderate levels, and proper placement and EQ'ing, the mic can be in the wedge without feedback.
At FOH, unless the player moves around too much, the mic usually is preferable to the DI. A good pickup/DI system on a good guitar can sound surprisingly acceptable for live use however. Good luck.
Old 23rd April 2014
  #130
Here for the gear
 

I hope this question is alright to ask because one time i tried to ask a question in a forum and i got accused of trying to ‘steal’ or ‘jack’ the thread.

I’ve been working in live sound as an amateur for a good fews years. I understand the basics and simple set ups for pubs and clubs and the local village hall. I want to go bigger, I want to start working with proper touring companies on big shows. But I feel atm my knowledge is very limited

anyways my question(s)

A) Power amps: I understand with amplifiers you should always buy an amp thats maybe 2 times as powerful as the speaker. is this right yes?

B) SpeakCONS: right this one is really baffling me and its frustrating me cos I want to learn and know it. I understand there are different pins on a NL4 to an NL8. So the question is, in a line array situation, I have one NL8 coming out the amp into the one cab (lets the stack is 16cabs and each cab is a 4way Turbosound TFS1211) how many links between cabs is physically possible before you need to insert another NL8 from the amp?

C) Sensitivity: Is there a way of working out calculations for sensitivity? I now understand that for doubling of power you get a 3dB increase. And for every doubling of distance you lose 6dB due to the inverse square law. Let’s throw some random values in the air here: Say I have a loudspeaker that is capable of producing 85dB @ 1W/1M. That’s only for one watt, what if the loudspeaker is 2.5kW and the distance is 8M how do you work what dB that speaker is producing? Or let’s say you know the speaker is 85dB and you know the distance is 4M how do you work out the wattage needed for that speaker? How can you tell how far a loudspeakers distance can throw if you know 85dB and the 2.5kW?

D) PowerCONS: This area is quite new to me but I’m aware that it is just a secure version of the standard wall plug. But what I don’t understand is, how many items can you link off one PowerCON before needed another outlet from a distributor?

E) Subwoofers: Say I have an amplifier capable of 20kW (I.e Lab Gruppen PLM20000Q) how many subwoofers (@1.6kW Turbosound Flashline TFS218 example) can be run of one amp and will I need to link subwoofers together (from the back of the actual subwoofer cabinet)? Do I need to use bridge mono for subwoofers

I hope I’ve been clear in asking these questions. I actually have a tonne more but I dont want to take up enough time than I already have. Please feel free to send private messages with answers aswell. I know a lot of what i am asking is very basic, but its better to cover all bases than none at all.
Old 23rd April 2014
  #131
Lives for gear
I think you should re-ask the questions in a new thread and one at a time. Otherwise it ends up very confusing to read through. This thread is already so bogged down that no one will ever be able to go back earn from it.
Old 24th April 2014
  #132
Lives for gear
 
mojo filters's Avatar
 

I agree with Don, as per the above.

However I have a question of my own: where do they let you work with what sounds like a sizeable Turbo Flashline rig, yet leave you having to ask strangers on the net about some simple info relating to rudimentary live sound knowledge?

I'm not intending to sound critical - the curiosity as a good thing. Am more concerned about who's rig it is and am I likely to encounter it?!?
Old 24th April 2014
  #133
Here for the gear
 

I'm no expert, but I'll try and answer those.

Quote:
A) Power amps: I understand with amplifiers you should always buy an amp thats maybe 2 times as powerful as the speaker. is this right yes?
In theory, that's not what you should be doing. You always need to compare the RMS watts of the amplifier to the RMS watts of the speaker. But keep in mind that not all amps are rated in the same way. There are ams whose RMS is measured using 20Hz-20kHz Pink Noise at 0,1% THD, and others whose RMS is measured at a 1kHz tone at 10%THD... The second is pretty much near peak power. Same with speakers, some are tested for ~10 Hours with 20Hz-20kHz pink noise, others for 1-2 hours with a 1kHz tone. Usually in the high end stuff (Like the Turbosound boxes and LabGruppen amps you mentioned), measurements are "honest"...

Quote:
B) SpeakCONS: right this one is really baffling me and its frustrating me cos I want to learn and know it. I understand there are different pins on a NL4 to an NL8. So the question is, in a line array situation, I have one NL8 coming out the amp into the one cab (lets the stack is 16cabs and each cab is a 4way Turbosound TFS1211) how many links between cabs is physically possible before you need to insert another NL8 from the amp?
NL8's are pretty confusing. But think of them as a multicore cable for power. Each connector has 8 pins inside, and each one's used to power a different driver. In a 4 Way cab, each set of pins is used to power a different driver. In the case of a 4-Way box, one set of pins would power the Compression Driver/tweeter, another set would power the High-Mid driver, another the Low-Mid driver, and the last one the Mid-bass driver. Let's look into one set of pins for now, the tweeter's for example. Usually tweeters have a rating of 8 Ohms or 16 Ohms, depending on the driver itself. This is ALWAYS written behind the speaker, along with Max/RMS Wattage. The amp as well has a Minimum rating. Almost all pro amplifiers have a minimum rating of 4 Ohms, but in the high-end stuff, this can be 2 Ohms. Keep in mind that, as impedance lowers, the wattage increases. So if you power one box (thus one tweeter, with a rating of, let's say, 8 Ohms) with an amp that can put out 1000 Watts at 8 Ohms, the tweeter will receive 1000 Watts.
Let's get back to the boxes though. What happens when linking them together with another NL8 is connecting the drivers parallel to each other, So the tweeters of the two boxes are connected in parallel with each other, the High-mid drivers are connected as well in parallel with each other, and some thing happens with all other drivers. And this brings me to the first physical limitation of how many boxes you can connect together: Impedance.
This is the equation you need to measure resistance when wiring drivers in parallel:
http://www.radio-electronics.com/inf...formula-01.gif
If you are linking 4 boxes together, each with a tweeter with an impedance of 8 ohms, you get:
1/RT = 1/8 + 1/8 + 1/8 + 1/8
1/RT = 4/8
RT = 8/4
RT = 2
So the impedance of those 4 boxes becomes 2 Ohms. If that's within your amp limits, then that's Ok to power them all with one cable. But if your amp has a min impedance rating of 4 Ohms, you need to power two boxes separately. The second physical limitation is Power. You need to make sure you're not over- or under-powering any boxes. Usually pro amplifiers do have ratings on power output vs impedance. As I said earlier, when impedance lowers, wattage increases. In the above 4-box/2-ohm example, if your amp puts out 4000 Watts at 2 Ohms, then each box will get 1000 Watts.
And last but not least, the Amperage which the connectors & cables can handle; Both the connectors on the boxes and the cables, the cables inside the boxes, and the connecting cable itself.

Quote:
Sensitivity: Is there a way of working out calculations for sensitivity? I now understand that for doubling of power you get a 3dB increase. And for every doubling of distance you lose 6dB due to the inverse square law. Let’s throw some random values in the air here: Say I have a loudspeaker that is capable of producing 85dB @ 1W/1M. That’s only for one watt, what if the loudspeaker is 2.5kW and the distance is 8M how do you work what dB that speaker is producing? Or let’s say you know the speaker is 85dB and you know the distance is 4M how do you work out the wattage needed for that speaker? How can you tell how far a loudspeakers distance can throw if you know 85dB and the 2.5kW?
First things first; Yes, with doubling the wattage you get 3dB of increase. You also get (at least in theory - In reality this works only with subwoofers that are placed closely next to each other) a 3dB increase every doubling of drivers/speakers. But remember that when you actually link those subs together the impedance drops in half, so you get both double the wattage, and double the drivers - 6dB increase there! Again though, this only works with subwoofers. As for calculating the SPL at X watts, I'm pretty sure there's an equation for that, but I use an SPL calculator - But when calculating SPL for line arrays, only set it for one speaker (otherwise you get a 3dB increase which is only valid on subwoofers), at 1 Meter distance (As SPL at a distance works differently for point source vs line source). You should first calculate the spl by wattage, and then do the spl drop by distance. For line arrays you can assume a 6dB drop for every doubling of distance (though in reality this depends on the air and frequency.) There are also several programs (software) by various companies that will help you design a line array (angles, etc) and show you the SPL at specific positions and distances. I think that's enough to help you figure out the rest.

Quote:
PowerCONS: This area is quite new to me but I’m aware that it is just a secure version of the standard wall plug. But what I don’t understand is, how many items can you link off one PowerCON before needed another outlet from a distributor?
Again this depends on the Amperage the connectors/cables can handle.

Quote:
Subwoofers: Say I have an amplifier capable of 20kW (I.e Lab Gruppen PLM20000Q) how many subwoofers (@1.6kW Turbosound Flashline TFS218 example) can be run of one amp and will I need to link subwoofers together (from the back of the actual subwoofer cabinet)? Do I need to use bridge mono for subwoofers
Just because I don't know your actual level of knowledge, I would first like to point you to Cardroid subs and Dave Rat's Youtube before i start talking about powering subs. Setting up subs is a tricky process, and frankly, powering them should be the least of your concerns.
Generally the same rules i talked about powering Line Arrays apply here as well. You shall aim for the lowest possible impedance (Lower impedance -> More Watts | But lowest impedance limited by the amplifier), and make sure you're not under- or over-powering the subs. When having multiple subs, bridge mono can be useful if they're powerful yet they have a high impedance. But, generally speaking, some events need more, and some need less subs, so setup is not always the same.

Hope all this helps! if you have any further questions let me know, and I'll do my best to answer them.
Old 28th April 2014
  #134
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Philberto12 View Post
anyways my question(s)

A) Power amps: I understand with amplifiers you should always buy an amp thats maybe 2 times as powerful as the speaker. is this right yes?
I usually prefer matching peak amp to program speaker ratings when I have the luxury. This makes the system a bit more tolerant to clipping; the program rating is designed to allow short-term operation above that level, for short periods of time (basically approximating normal use). If the red light lights, you have time to turn down before you risk speaker damage. Matching peak to peak, from the first flicker of the amp's clip light, you are damaging your cabs' voice coils, because the peak rating is the rating at which the speaker can only tolerate that amount of power for fractions of a wavelength. Running more sustained square waves at peak power can quickly burn out the voice coil, or even cause it to jump the chassis.

BTW, matching amp to speakers this way, I've never needed the full power of the system. Not even close. The most recent work I did involved main speakers with 500W program power handling and 97dB sensitivity in a rather lively house of worship, and the amp they had available only produces 450W per channel at the load provided (we used one channel divided between two mains in a center cluster, with a second channel for fills), so each cabinet could only receive 225W max power. Even then, a comfortable nominal SPL level for spoken word and mastered music (about 80dB on my meter) was achieved at about -10dB from maximum amp power, or about 45 watts nominal power, and that turned out to be too much for the average churchgoer, so we took out another 15dB at the board (I still have to rebalance the amp with the board to get the mixer mains closer to unity where I like em). The upshot is that this system as currently used supplies only about 1 watt to the pair of mains providing the majority of house sound. Matching peak to peak is thus not only potentially dangerous, it's usually WAAAAAY overkill, and so a waste of money.

Quote:
B) SpeakCONS: right this one is really baffling me and its frustrating me cos I want to learn and know it. I understand there are different pins on a NL4 to an NL8. So the question is, in a line array situation, I have one NL8 coming out the amp into the one cab (lets the stack is 16cabs and each cab is a 4way Turbosound TFS1211) how many links between cabs is physically possible before you need to insert another NL8 from the amp?
In the U.S. at least, the trademark term is Speakon, not SpeakCON. Anyway, an NL4 is a 4-conductor connector, meaning that one connector can power two speaker circuits. An NL-8 is an 8-conductor, giving you four circuits. That's how you should think of these connectors in most situations; as providing a single connector to service multiple independent speaker circuits. Each one might get exactly the same signal as the others, or you might run the signals through a speaker processor to delay or phase-correct them, or you might use one "home run" to feed a true multi-channel speaker rig.

Given that, the answer to your question is answered by answering the following two questions; what's the minimum load of each amplifier channel, and what's the impedance rating of each speaker in your array? An amp rated for a 4-ohm minimum load in multi-channel mode (virtually all of them can go lower in a "bridged" mode) can take two 8-ohm speakers, or four 16-ohm, or four 4-ohm speakers with parallel pairs of cabs in series, or 8 8-ohm speakers wired in a similar way, or... There are a lot of ways to do it. Given your answer, you simply wire up the array from the 12-8 wire as appropriate to provide the proper load to the amp on each channel.

Quote:
C) Sensitivity: Is there a way of working out calculations for sensitivity? I now understand that for doubling of power you get a 3dB increase. And for every doubling of distance you lose 6dB due to the inverse square law. Let’s throw some random values in the air here: Say I have a loudspeaker that is capable of producing 85dB @ 1W/1M. That’s only for one watt, what if the loudspeaker is 2.5kW and the distance is 8M how do you work what dB that speaker is producing? Or let’s say you know the speaker is 85dB and you know the distance is 4M how do you work out the wattage needed for that speaker? How can you tell how far a loudspeakers distance can throw if you know 85dB and the 2.5kW?
Sure. A speaker with 85dB sensitivity, as heard from in front of the speaker at 1 watt and 1 meter, can be expected to produce approximately 34dB more than that at the same distance and orientation with 2.5kW of power. The decibel formula is very simple: dB = 10* log(P/PRef), where P is the measured power, and PRef is whatever reference standard you are using. If you're measuring voltage, multiply what you get by 2 (or use the altered version dB = 20*log(V/VRef), because power is a function of voltage squared.

The simple way to figure decibel differences is that 10 times the power is 10dB, and double the power is 3dB. So let's say in a different example that you were using 4kW to power your speakers. 1kW is 1000 times the reference, or 10*10*10, so that's 30dB, and then 4kW is four times that, or two doublings, adding 6dB for a total of 36dB.

Now, the other side of this equation is distance. Double the distance gives you 6dB lower SPL. Why 6 and not 3, like with doubling power? Because SPL is a function of pressure, and pressure is a force over area which is the square of distance, so double the distance dissipates the same energy over four times the area, so you only get 1/4 the energy of the pressure wave, not 1/2. So, to calculate the maximum direct SPL from the speaker to any point in the house, you have to know the straightline distance between the speaker and that point. A little trig, knowing the height above the ground of the speaker mount and the distance from directly underneath the speaker to that point in the house, will give you a close enough measurement. Let's say someone about 5 rows back is 30 feet or about 10m from the speaker. That's 10 times the reference distance, or about 3.3 doublings, for a reduction of about 25dB. All other things being equal, the peak SPL that this audience member will be exposed to from this one speaker, directly, is 85+36-25, or approximately 96dB. That's safe for short periods, but those with more sensitive ears will complain.

However, all other things are not equal; you have more than one speaker (for bank-of-envelope calculations like this, line arrays can be counted as one speaker of the total wattage, since they're designed to constructively combine the individual cabs' waveforms), and you are probably also working in an enclosed space, for which you'll have to figure boundary reflections. The complexity of making these calculations on paper before spending the money and time to install a system for testing is why computer modeling software like SMAART were developed.

Quote:
D) PowerCONS: This area is quite new to me but I’m aware that it is just a secure version of the standard wall plug. But what I don’t understand is, how many items can you link off one PowerCON before needed another outlet from a distributor?
PowerCON is basically a slightly beefier Speakon designed for mains power. Not a lot of change was needed; the recommended wire gauges and power handling recommendations for speaker cables are better than those typically used for the power supply to the amp in the first place. Anyway, it's all about total amperage. The standard PowerCON connector can supply up to 20 amps at 120VAC, for a total of 2400W RMS. There are rackmount converters that are basically power strips for equipment in the rack, which take up to 6 standard US 3-prong plugs, and these converters have PowerCON "thru" plugs to power more downstream equipment. Just add up all the max consumption ratings of your rackmount gear (compressors, effects, speaker processors, amps, etc) and divide it by total power available, possibly with a 20% safety margin as it normally used on household wiring (so instead of counting on 2400W, figure closer to 1900W per PowerCON line to account for line losses and prevent startup jolts from tripping circuit protectors).

Quote:
E) Subwoofers: Say I have an amplifier capable of 20kW (I.e Lab Gruppen PLM20000Q) how many subwoofers (@1.6kW Turbosound Flashline TFS218 example) can be run of one amp and will I need to link subwoofers together (from the back of the actual subwoofer cabinet)? Do I need to use bridge mono for subwoofers
Stereo subs are an option, if you want to run your house in stereo. I generally don't, because a stereo soundfield is a very location-dependent phenomenon that's unlikely to apply to every seat in an auditorium. More likely, in a complex setup like this, you'll want multiple sub channels to give each sub individual speaker processing; you'll probably need the same for portions of each of your line arrays, providing phase correction, delay timing etc.

Quote:
I hope I’ve been clear in asking these questions. I actually have a tonne more but I dont want to take up enough time than I already have. Please feel free to send private messages with answers aswell. I know a lot of what i am asking is very basic, but its better to cover all bases than none at all.
Totally in agreement here.
Old 28th April 2014
  #135
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by dboomer View Post
I think you should re-ask the questions in a new thread and one at a time. Otherwise it ends up very confusing to read through. This thread is already so bogged down that no one will ever be able to go back earn from it.
The thread is, "What do you want to know about Live Sound but are afraid to ask?". Part of this thread's appeal is that in two weeks when there are 5 more pages to this thread, your own noobness inherent in asking your question is both well-hidden and well-diluted in the collective noobness.
Old 11th May 2014
  #136
Here for the gear
 

Well, I have another one of my odd questions on the same topic, audio-only companies...

A couple of days ago, I came across the website of a company called "AB Acoustics"... I don't know if it's a famous company or something similar, but I read (on their site) that they were established in 1989... So does anyone know anything about them specifically? Cause they only seem to do audio (hire, ex-hire sales, installations), and I wonder weather they've been doing audio-only since 1989 (like their name implies...)
Anyway, they seem to have a couple of EAW array setups, four analog desks, and two Midas (Pro1, Pro2) digital desks, as well as a yamaha, an A&H, and a presonus. They also have DJ equipment, Mics, DIs, and this sort of stuff...
So do you think a *new* company (Not established in 1989 or anywhere near that time :P), with this sort of equipment (A bit less actually, maybe just one "high-end" line array setup) could survive?

(Warning, I'm not sure but, I might have said this some of this in my previous posts) The thing is, I'm just 15, I'm reeeeeally interested in live sound (FOH in particular, I wouldn't like mixing monitors); I'm almost 90% sure it is what I want to do with my life. I'm a very good student, and I could become something that would bring me lots of money, but money is not what I think I'm after. Sure, I wouldn't mind having a Lambo, lol - But I'd much rather be in front of a Midas all day long than anything else. I spend most of my time on the computer watching videos and reading on forums on sound engineering, learning tips and tricks, drooling over videos with any sort of expensive console (Even X32s :P), and practicing mixing in every way I can (I have downloaded some raw multi-tracks and try and practice on them on ProTools, though my Single-Core CPU causes system-wide crashes whenever it likes... - I don't have any sort of studio monitors either, just my Vsonic VC02 headphones)... So being 90% sure that's what I want to do, I'm trying to make some plans for my future. But I know there are issues...
First, as I've been told, it's very, very, VERY hard to find a job as a sound engineer. There are many sound engineers out there, and big companies usually require TONS and TONS of experience... Even small ones require engineers with like 5 years of experience or more!!! So it's very hard to get in the business, and even harder to work your way up. - And I'm not even considering staying in my country, it's just sooo messed up... Just putting a lot of effort into learning English to get out of here! :P So long story short, I'm looking into what making my own company would entail...
And that brings me to the second issue, money. Heck this stuff costs a lot! I mean, one new Vertec box costs as much as a brand new small car!!! A used Pro6 with digital snakes, cases, and all accessories can cost as much as a used F360 or even an '04 Gallardo!!! So how the heck would I be able to start a company, even with used equipment, when it all costs this sort of money? And I'm pretty sure it's not easy to take out a loan when having no houses, expensive cars, or any sort of property worth this kind of money for a bank to pledge.
Honestly, I have no idea what I'm doing, how banks work, and how live sound businesses are being set up... If anyone has any sort of information that wouldn't mind sharing with me... I'm all ears! Please post below or PM me - I'd love to hear Anything.


...I wish money had not been invented... :/ Oh well, I guess it could have been worse.
Old 12th May 2014
  #137
Lives for gear
 
edva's Avatar
Unless you win the lottery, you are not in a position to supply money, or buy equipment, to start a business.
Your value is in your knowledge, enthusiasm, skill set, acumen, personality, and work ethic. Those are very valuable assets, in whatever degree you are able to develop them.
Target successful people and businesses, go to where they are, and find a way to make yourself valuable to them, while learning the ropes.
Like any business, the music business is a "people" business as much as anything else. But, you also have to be able to deliver. Good luck to you, you'll need it.
Old 12th May 2014
  #138
Here for the gear
 

Thanks a lot, this is all great help!
I do like learning, and I spend a lot of time reading up on tricks and techniques, so I guess I'm already developing my knowledge... And I think I'm pretty enthusiastic about it as well... So I'd better work on the rest
Lottery... Eh... Not gonna happen any time soon :P
Again, thanks a lot for the advice!
Old 12th May 2014
  #139
Lives for gear
 
Aisle 6's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by XENGS View Post
The thing is, I'm just 15, I'm reeeeeally interested in live sound (FOH in particular, I wouldn't like mixing monitors); I'm almost 90% sure it is what I want to do with my life.

First, as I've been told, it's very, very, VERY hard to find a job as a sound engineer. There are many sound engineers out there, and big companies usually require TONS and TONS of experience... Even small ones require engineers with like 5 years of experience or more!!!
Well 5 years of experience only puts you at 20yrs old. Hmm! That puts you way ahead of the pack in my opinion. Why is it that the youth want everything right this second? Oh yeah, that is all of us.

Secondly, I would not rule out monitors. I learnt so much during my time as a monitor engineer. It was not only a super valuable time in my development, but also fast tracked my FOH opportunities. Just sayin'.
Old 12th May 2014
  #140
Here for the gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aisle 6 View Post
Well 5 years of experience only puts you at 20yrs old. Hmm! That puts you way ahead of the pack in my opinion. Why is it that the youth want everything right this second? Oh yeah, that is all of us.

Secondly, I would not rule out monitors. I learnt so much during my time as a monitor engineer. It was not only a super valuable time in my development, but also fast tracked my FOH opportunities. Just sayin'.
That's actually not what I meant... What I meant was, there are sooo many engineers out there, that companies have started to become "picky" - With even the smallest companies requiring lots of experience... But how are you gonna get experience if everybody requires experience? And even if there's a company who doesn't require experience, there will still be an engineer that will seem like a better choice as a candidate. Of course I don't expect to work with a Midas just as soon as I start, that's super-unrealistic to say the LEAST! Not only that, but I enjoy working my way up, and learning things as I go. Although I do know plenty of things, I don't think anyone should trust me with anything more than an x32, a pair of speakers and a couple of subs. I simply lack lots of practical experience. I would have no problem at all working on any board, with any mics, or any speakers, for as long as it takes. I just find it all enjoyable, some more than others. (BTW, 5 years experience wouldn't translate in me being 20 years old... I still gotta get 18, then go to some sort of university, and so on...) As for mixing monitors... Yes, perhaps you're right... On a second thought, monitors aren't bad - I'd still do those over being in a studio... I guess I wouldn't mind mixing monitors, but just for experience. This is all for doing something I really, really love. And that would be FOH. If it ain't FOH, well, maybe I could do another thing all-together.
Anyway, thanks for the advice! I really appreciate it!
Old 12th May 2014
  #141
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by XENGS View Post
Although I do know plenty of things, I don't think anyone should trust me with anything more than an x32, a pair of speakers and a couple of subs. I simply lack lots of practical experience. I would have no problem at all working on any board, with any mics, or any speakers, for as long as it takes.
Big words from a fifteen year old with no professional training or experience.
Most employers likes and appreciates confidence and enthusiasm but probably won't like potential employees who are overconfident and come across as a know-it-all. How we say something is oftentimes just as important as what we say.
Old 12th May 2014
  #142
Here for the gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Samc View Post
Big words from a fifteen year old with no professional training or experience.
Most employers likes and appreciates confidence and enthusiasm but probably won't like potential employees who are overconfident and come across as a know-it-all. How we say something is oftentimes just as important as what we say.
Big words? Know-it-all?
That's not what I feel at all. All I was trying to say is, I know I lack experience, and I would have no problem working with any sort of crap equipment (Phonic/Fame boards, cheap Chinese mics, no-brand speakers with Piezos in them...), as long as I gain stuff (knowledge and experience) from it. I simply love live sound!
...This doesn't make any sense unless I'm hugely underestimating an X32...
Old 12th May 2014
  #143
Lives for gear
 
edva's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by XENGS View Post
Big words? Know-it-all?
That's not what I feel at all. All I was trying to say is, I know I lack experience, and I would have no problem working with any sort of crap equipment (Phonic/Fame boards, cheap Chinese mics, no-brand speakers with Piezos in them...), as long as I gain stuff (knowledge and experience) from it. I simply love live sound!
...This doesn't make any sense unless I'm hugely underestimating an X32...
Consider the source when reading other's comments. Perhaps look at other poster's typical posts, to see what their general attitude is towards young people who are trying to get into the business. This may help you interpret their responses toward you. Just sayin'.
Old 12th May 2014
  #144
Here for the gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by edva View Post
Consider the source when reading other's comments. Perhaps look at other poster's typical posts, to see what their general attitude is towards young people who are trying to get into the business. This may help you interpret their responses toward you. Just sayin'.
That's right. But, still, I'm asking for everyone's opinions and advises, you never know where they might seem useful - Whether they're positive or not.
Maybe he read my post too quickly and misunderstood, or simply didn't look at it from my point of view - Just because he may imply the same things about all young people who want to get into the business. But nevertheless, I always try to get my meaning across. Maybe he'll just start looking at it from a different point of view then....

It's all a discussion-board after all!
Old 12th May 2014
  #145
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by edva View Post
Consider the source when reading other's comments. Perhaps look at other poster's typical posts, to see what their general attitude is towards young people who are trying to get into the business. This may help you interpret their responses toward you. Just sayin'.
Care to expand on your statement? What has been my "general attitude towards young people who are trying to get into the business? Are you par chance referring to my stance against people coming here just to get 'tips and tricks' instead of learning the craft properly and in a professional manner…

While you're out painting me as someone who dislike young people making it in this business yuou might want to consider these facts: Since the start of this year alone I've personally hired more than ten people (from the UK, Europe, Jamaica the US and Brazil) for various technical (sound) positions on international tours. The oldest person was 32 years old with the youngest being 20 years old...most have little to no touring experience and none have ever toured at the level I hired them.

In August I will be hiring several hundred young people from various audio and production schools to work at the festival I produce (4 stages, seven stages and 40,000 fans per day)…This will not be the first time, I do this every year. Several young people who now have permanent jobs with production companies got those jobs because they were either hired or recommended by me. One of the most sought after monitor engineers in Europe was hired and trained by me, she was hired to go on tour shortly after leaving audio school…I could go on but that was just to show how much I hate young people coming into the business.

I consider your post to be mischievous at best.
Old 12th May 2014
  #146
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by XENGS View Post
That's right. But, still, I'm asking for everyone's opinions and advises, you never know where they might seem useful - Whether they're positive or not.
All I'm saying is you need to be careful not to give the wrong impression when you apply for a job…Most employers will probably get turned off hiring someone with no experience or training saying that he knows a lot, or that he can run any type of system.

However you want to take this little bit of advise is up to you…good luck.
Old 13th May 2014
  #147
Lives for gear
 
Aisle 6's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by XENGS View Post
Big words? Know-it-all?
You did say that you "know a lot of things". At 15 I would be surprised if you knew how to get your foot out of your mouth.

I like your confidence, but you really need to stand back, watch, listen and ask questions after the dust has settled. I also hire young people, but I am very fussy about who I hire as they represent me. Funny enough, their skill as a FOH engineer is not even in the top 3 things that I look for in my staff. Sure they can mix, but they have to be so much more than an engineer, or rather, my definition of a modern engineer is much more than a guy who can mix well.

Good luck with your journey.
Old 13th May 2014
  #148
Here for the gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Samc View Post
All I'm saying is you need to be careful not to give the wrong impression when you apply for a job…Most employers will probably get turned off hiring someone with no experience or training saying that he knows a lot, or that he can run any type of system.

However you want to take this little bit of advise is up to you…good luck.
Great advice, thank you

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aisle 6 View Post
You did say that you "know a lot of things". At 15 I would be surprised if you knew how to get your foot out of your mouth.

I like your confidence, but you really need to stand back, watch, listen and ask questions after the dust has settled. I also hire young people, but I am very fussy about who I hire as they represent me. Funny enough, their skill as a FOH engineer is not even in the top 3 things that I look for in my staff. Sure they can mix, but they have to be so much more than an engineer, or rather, my definition of a modern engineer is much more than a guy who can mix well.

Good luck with your journey.
Well I didn't use the phrase "a lot" but "plenty", which I think translates to "sufficient", and expanded on that with "I don't think anyone should trust me with anything more than an x32, a pair of speakers and a couple of subs. I simply lack lots of practical experience."
EDIT: Which would pretty much translate to "I don't think I can handle anything more than an X32 and a couple of speakers at most"...

I really do believe there's still LOTS of things to learn, I don't see how two people understood the exact opposite... Is my English that bad?
EDIT2: Unless I am, again, underestimating an X32...
Old 13th May 2014
  #149
Lives for gear
 
edva's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by XENGS View Post
Great advice, thank you



Well I didn't use the phrase "a lot" but "plenty", which I think translates to "sufficient", and expanded on that with "I don't think anyone should trust me with anything more than an x32, a pair of speakers and a couple of subs. I simply lack lots of practical experience."
EDIT: Which would pretty much translate to "I don't think I can handle anything more than an X32 and a couple of speakers at most"...

I really do believe there's still LOTS of things to learn, I don't see how two people understood the exact opposite... Is my English that bad?
EDIT2: Unless I am, again, underestimating an X32...
Your English is fine. Everyone has an individual perspective, and it filters the way things are interpreted. To me, you appear bright, well-spoken, and focused, with a good sense of humor. But, that's just my personal perspective.
Don't take other people's opinions, including mine, too seriously. Keep your eyes open, use your head, and follow your heart. And protect your ears. Good luck.
Old 13th May 2014
  #150
Here for the gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by edva View Post
Your English is fine. Everyone has an individual perspective, and it filters the way things are interpreted. To me, you appear bright, well-spoken, and focused, with a good sense of humor. But, that's just my personal perspective.
Don't take other people's opinions, including mine, too seriously. Keep your eyes open, use your head, and follow your heart. And protect your ears. Good luck.
Thank you for your kind words
As for taking people's opinions seriously; I do try to sort of "filter" them based on how true they seem/might be, but anyway, they are the only way to get an "inside view" on how all this business works...
Topic:
Post Reply

Welcome to the Gearslutz Pro Audio Community!

Registration benefits include:
  • The ability to reply to and create new discussions
  • Access to members-only giveaways & competitions
  • Interact with VIP industry experts in our guest Q&As
  • Access to members-only sub forum discussions
  • Access to members-only Chat Room
  • Get INSTANT ACCESS to the world's best private pro audio Classifieds for only USD $20/year
  • Promote your eBay auctions and Reverb.com listings for free
  • Remove this message!
You need an account to post a reply. Create a username and password below and an account will be created and your post entered.


 
 
Slide to join now Processing…
Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Forum Jump
Forum Jump