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A 10k PA what would you buy? Modular Synthesizers
Old 3rd March 2014
  #61
Gear Addict
 

Yes indeed lots of assumptions being made as the OP didn't provide a whole lot of info, but what is known:

1--10K budget
2--sound for 250 people
3--OP didn't think genre had anything to do with system selection.
( I mention this as it shows a skill level)
4-- Really don't know (for sure) if he's talking just speakers or EVERYTHING

So since it appears the OP has left the building due to the debate, lets kick the ball around.

I think the two biggest issues here are the budget and what appears to be his knowledge base. 10k is just not going to buy a whole lot, used or otherwise. I've got more than that in my subs. However for 250 people, it will do fine. The very fact that there is a lack of info would make me more likely to make a suggestion based on reliability, system support and availability than worrying about whether it is "sonically" the ideal fit. Someone suggested a KW rig, regardless of all the other details that might be discovered, what would be the situation where that would be an absolutely terrible choice? Have an issue with the horn angle, OK, suggest an RCF box with a rotateable horn. Now we have the perfect system for said situation.................well maybe, but now we have an operator that by his own admission thinks music genre has nothing to do with the system selection. Why worry about the nats-ass details of the system when the operator clearly is early in the learning curve ? His actions running this system are going to have a far greater effect on the end result than the design of said system.

Apparently Sam has an enviable inventory at his disposal and from a purist standpoint, his position is hard to debate. But 10k only goes so far. I have far more than 10k in my system (about 5-6x) and I consistently find success with using essentially the same components for everything with just minor adjustments (maybe a front/center or side fill here or there, maybe a different horn this time)This is what I would call an SM57 situation. give the OP some suggestions for a system that will work quite well in a number of situations, maybe not perfect for any one of them but good enough for all of them. This isn't an install at the Kennedy Center where such attention to exact issues is demanded.
Old 3rd March 2014
  #62
113568
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sometimes its ok not to make a suggestion
Old 3rd March 2014
  #63
KEL
Lives for gear
 

exactly my points Tommy. that's all I was doing, kicking around the ideas.

obviously it's well past the point of actually helping, nor does the situation seem remotely coherent, or real. /we're 3 degrees of separation away from what may be actually happening.

What we know:
this is Gearslutz, people throw out all kinds of opinion and suggestions on nearly everything. No surprise. Do people make $10,000 purchases based on some posts? No. it's information gathering. Someone suggests something...poster goes looking or shopping. Do they want to shortcut the process and just get an answer? yes
The opening volley had next to no information and worse yet see my previous point, as if anyone would actually make a $10k purchase based on so little information or suggestions of an online forum.
OP isn't the buyer but being the "expert" this nebulous friend turned to him
The OP has some cursory understanding of rigs which hints at bands but still a guess. He's mixed shows on QRx and other systems.
Friend is a good "mixer"(paraphrasing) which may hint at bands since "genre" is mentioned too. So once again I guess this to not mean a simple playback system, probably not DJ
Friend has studio experience which hints at some modicum of acoustics knowledge, mic'ing, drums, etc.
250 people
$10k budget

That's ALL we know. If this was some reality show where I had $10k and had to guess what to get, why wouldn't I first use my 30+ years experience, taking into account what I see/use on a regular basis, or my colleagues, and render a good guess? Then to me, $10k absolutely suggests, Yamaha, QSC, RCF, JBL if new gear. I don't know if anything else is needed so I keep that in mind and try not to spend all the money on the best speaker product only. And, I still need something that would handle the gig satisfactorily. Active does seem to be the way to go. Flyable in case that's a requirement. Hire a consultant? $1k-3k of my $10k gone.

My experience says that there have been very few instances where a speaker on a tripod stand could not be used. Subs? Again, this is my thinking but not suggesting subs seems like a possible mistake, no? So, throwing out a seemingly un-enlightened guess seems like "voodoo" or bordering on negligent but I'm just playing the numbers. How many round stages have I seen? Few. How many places that have bands, that hold 250 people would have issues with neighbors? Few that I've run across. How many venues have audience that span more than 90-100 degrees or even as wide as 180? More than a few but a small percentage.
Old 3rd March 2014
  #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KEL View Post
The opening volley had next to no information and worse yet see my previous point, as if anyone would actually make a $10k purchase based on so little information or suggestions of an online forum.
OP isn't the buyer but being the "expert" this nebulous friend turned to him
The OP has some cursory understanding of rigs which hints at bands but still a guess.
Friend is a good "mixer"(paraphrasing) which may hint at bands since "genre" is mentioned too. So once again I guess this to not mean a simple playback system, probably not DJ
250 people
$10k budget

That's ALL we know.
On the 250 people, OP actually stated "Venue size is about 250". I interpreted that to be referencing a singular venue and thus potentially a system that should be based on best serving that specific venue, however I can also see that they might have instead meant "Venue sizes are about 250" and thus have been referencing a portable system for multiple venues.

The OP having a cursory understanding of rigs makes me think that they understand that a PA system encompasses more than just the speakers and absent information to the contrary, the safe assumption seems to be that they are starting with nothing and intend to purchase a complete system from scratch.

They also noted that used equipment was acceptable so you could add that to the list of knowns.

The irony is that there has now probably been $20k worth of input and discussion dedicated to a discussion about a $10k system.
Old 3rd March 2014
  #65
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by museav View Post
on the 250 people, op actually stated "venue size is about 250". I interpreted that to be referencing a singular venue and thus potentially a system that should be based on best serving that specific venue, however i can also see that they might have instead meant "venue sizes are about 250" and thus have been referencing a portable system for multiple venues.

The op having a cursory understanding of rigs makes me think that they understand that a pa system encompasses more than just the speakers and absent information to the contrary, the safe assumption seems to be that they are starting with nothing and intend to purchase a complete system from scratch.

They also noted that used equipment was acceptable so you could add that to the list of knowns.

The irony is that there has now probably been $20k worth of input and discussion dedicated to a discussion about a $10k system.
excellent !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Old 3rd March 2014
  #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KEL View Post
this is Gearslutz, people throw out all kinds of opinion and suggestions on nearly everything. No surprise. Do people make $10,000 purchases based on some posts? No. it's information gathering. Someone suggests something...poster goes looking or shopping. Do they want to shortcut the process and just get an answer? yes
The opening volley had next to no information and worse yet see my previous point, as if anyone would actually make a $10k purchase based on so little information or suggestions of an online forum.
So that was just you guys throwing out suggestions and opinions just for the sake of doing so?
Old 4th March 2014
  #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Samc View Post
Plastic boxes because they sound like, and can be interchanged with plastic boxes…no one will ever put these boxes in the same category with Meyer systems.

V-Dosc and ARCS boxes are also flyable, relatively scaleable, wood, relatively light, distributed system friendly and sound a heap better than the boxes you suggested….how light is light enough and how small is small enough when you don't know the anything about the venue or the needs of the person buying the system?

Obviously, your logic is that since you've only run into 4 distributed systems and have always been able to use your subs, it stands to reason that this will be the configuration and needs of this space….

Good to know I can just bring a V-Dosc and Arcs system along for all future gigs…

Why are you guys still trying to defend your position on this issue when all of you have at some point admitted that the systems you're recommending may not be the best system for the situation?!?!

Is this how you guys do business…you try to shoehorn the one or two systems you know into every situation instead of creating a custom solution for each unique job? these are the same small group of systems I always see get thrown around every time someone asks for a recommendation.

The original advise to get a pro installer is still the best.
Sam,

I was down in Cancun a couple of years ago and had the opportunity to watch Train and Lifehouse live on the beach at the XCarete resort.

A pair of UPA-2P's per side on stands with a center speaker and a pair of subs under stage..... all Meyer gear.

Best sounding speaker system I had ever heard.

Went home and looked up what it might cost to get a pair of those UPA tops. Looks like around $4,500.00 each.

Now, I will admit that those UPA's sounded sweeter than my DSR112's, but I am guessing that we are a little out into the twilight zone here (at least that is what my wife said when I suggested that I needed a Meyer rig ).

I don't think that anyone is suggesting that ANY 10K rig is a match for a Meyer rig (certainly not me); however, it is being suggested that a decent MI grade powered speaker FOH rig is far better than what the VAST majority of installed systems in most bars today have.

Even the ONE bar that I know of that actually has a physically superior system to the powered speakers we have been discussing (not including the UPA's ) sounds like crap. They have 2 SRX715's over 4 SRX718's powered by appropriate crown amps. Sadly, the owner has the cross-over set at 170Hz .... because he thinks it sounds better like that. He runs the vocals so dry that it is painful to listen to even the most talented bands play there.

This is exactly why I don't recommend average people setting up their own speaker setups. Matching tops and subs and all powered and processed is the way to go.

In the end, this will sound MUCH better than anything else these poor souls could ever manage to put together with 10 times the budget.

I have no doubt that you could put in a killer system in such a club that would sound truly astounding ...... sadly, you are not most people.
Old 4th March 2014
  #68
KEL
Lives for gear
 

In the same way we shouldn't just call out whatever configuration or brand we happen to like, it's just as far fetched to just say Meyer, L-acoustics, Nexo etc to every install too because of some disdain for MI level gear. I think Sam has issues with MI gear and that's ok. I live in that world a majority of the time, make a good living in the ankle biter non Meyer world .
Old 4th March 2014
  #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Samc View Post
Is this how you guys do business…you try to shoehorn the one or two systems you know into every situation instead of creating a custom solution for each unique job? these are the same small group of systems I always see get thrown around every time someone asks for a recommendation.
That is probably the reality for many, they have what they have and have to make it work the best they can in every situation they encounter. Some do so with a good understanding of the related physics and acoustics, others do so somewhat randomly or by trial and error.

What I have found is that many that have worked in such 'combat audio' environments may not recognize that what works well for that situation is not necessarily the most effective approach for all situations and in particular for installed or house systems. Even ignoring code compliance and similar issues that are part of permanent installations, you can usually get better results for installed or house systems by selecting a system to serve that specific venue and application rather than trying to make a selected system fit the venue and application. Starting with the desired results and working back to the system and equipment required to provide those results is almost opposite approach of what many are used to doing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OneEng View Post
Sam,

I was down in Cancun a couple of years ago and had the opportunity to watch Train and Lifehouse live on the beach at the XCarete resort.

A pair of UPA-2P's per side on stands with a center speaker and a pair of subs under stage..... all Meyer gear.

Best sounding speaker system I had ever heard.

Went home and looked up what it might cost to get a pair of those UPA tops. Looks like around $4,500.00 each.

Now, I will admit that those UPA's sounded sweeter than my DSR112's, but I am guessing that we are a little out into the twilight zone here (at least that is what my wife said when I suggested that I needed a Meyer rig ).

I don't think that anyone is suggesting that ANY 10K rig is a match for a Meyer rig (certainly not me); however, it is being suggested that a decent MI grade powered speaker FOH rig is far better than what the VAST majority of installed systems in most bars today have.

Even the ONE bar that I know of that actually has a physically superior system to the powered speakers we have been discussing (not including the UPA's ) sounds like crap. They have 2 SRX715's over 4 SRX718's powered by appropriate crown amps. Sadly, the owner has the cross-over set at 170Hz .... because he thinks it sounds better like that. He runs the vocals so dry that it is painful to listen to even the most talented bands play there.

This is exactly why I don't recommend average people setting up their own speaker setups. Matching tops and subs and all powered and processed is the way to go.

In the end, this will sound MUCH better than anything else these poor souls could ever manage to put together with 10 times the budget.

I have no doubt that you could put in a killer system in such a club that would sound truly astounding ...... sadly, you are not most people
If I understand what you are saying, in other words the results are determined by not just the gear used but also by how the gear is applied and less experienced or knowledgeable folks may benefit from systems where the manufacturer has already addressed many of the related issues for you.
Old 4th March 2014
  #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OneEng View Post
This is exactly why I don't recommend average people setting up their own speaker setups.
You have just made a very good argument in support of the advice given in the first response, which was to get a professional installer to do the job.
Old 4th March 2014
  #71
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by KEL View Post
In the same way we shouldn't just call out whatever configuration or brand we happen to like, it's just as far fetched to just say Meyer, L-acoustics, Nexo etc to every install too because of some disdain for MI level gear. I think Sam has issues with MI gear and that's ok. I live in that world a majority of the time, make a good living in the ankle biter non Meyer world .
I have not suggested or called out any configuration or brand, I'm in the 'get a pro to help' camp.

I don't really care what people use, I just found it curious that the same brands/models seem to always get mentioned every time someone asks advise about building a rig.
Old 5th March 2014
  #72
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by museAV View Post
That is probably the reality for many, they have what they have and have to make it work the best they can in every situation they encounter. Some do so with a good understanding of the related physics and acoustics, others do so somewhat randomly or by trial and error.

What I have found is that many that have worked in such 'combat audio' environments may not recognize that what works well for that situation is not necessarily the most effective approach for all situations and in particular for installed or house systems. Even ignoring code compliance and similar issues that are part of permanent installations, you can usually get better results for installed or house systems by selecting a system to serve that specific venue and application rather than trying to make a selected system fit the venue and application. Starting with the desired results and working back to the system and equipment required to provide those results is almost opposite approach of what many are used to doing.


If I understand what you are saying, in other words the results are determined by not just the gear used but also by how the gear is applied and less experienced or knowledgeable folks may benefit from systems where the manufacturer has already addressed many of the related issues for you.
Yes. Thank you for so eloquently summarizing my wordy rant

Sam,
Quote:
You have just made a very good argument in support of the advice given in the first response, which was to get a professional installer to do the job.
I am not sure that given a 10K budget, that a professional installer will get you better results simply because ~2-3K of your budget is going to go to the installer along with the overhead associated with them purchasing the gear leaving even less money to put together quality components for the rest of the PA.

I think the simple tops over subs (all powered and processed from the same manufacturer) is very difficult to mess up. It is going to sound pretty good unless you really go out of your way to trip it up.

I just haven't had good luck with sound in bar venues with flown speakers. I do believe that they were simply poorly placed and poorly setup, but this seems to be the big problem. It is just much harder to fly speakers and get good sound. You can almost never fly them where they need to be because the venue owner won't let you due to a host of personal reasons usually dealing with ascetics. I saw one recently when I was in Valencia Spain using some pretty nice turbosound speakers. There were 4 speakers surrounding a basically square dance area and the subs were clustered in front of the stage.

There were places in the room where things sounded OK, but it was very unballanced. Tons of nulls. Tons of comb filtering.

I am sure that someone thought that would be a great way to setup a system.
Old 5th March 2014
  #73
Lives for gear
 

Maybe they should have called a pro?

I'm not sure an installer could get better sonic results than what you guys are suggesting but I would rather have a kick ass $8000 system that fits my needs perfectly than a good sounding $10,000 system that does not perfectly fit my needs.

The sound of the system is important but it's not always the only concern. We just don't know enough to assume so much....
Old 5th March 2014
  #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tommy Salami View Post
Yes indeed lots of assumptions being made as the OP didn't provide a whole lot of info, but what is known:

1--10K budget
2--sound for 250 people
3--OP didn't think genre had anything to do with system selection.
( I mention this as it shows a skill level)
4-- Really don't know (for sure) if he's talking just speakers or EVERYTHING

So since it appears the OP has left the building due to the debate, lets kick the ball around.

I think the two biggest issues here are the budget and what appears to be his knowledge base. 10k is just not going to buy a whole lot, used or otherwise. I've got more than that in my subs. However for 250 people, it will do fine. The very fact that there is a lack of info would make me more likely to make a suggestion based on reliability, system support and availability than worrying about whether it is "sonically" the ideal fit. Someone suggested a KW rig, regardless of all the other details that might be discovered, what would be the situation where that would be an absolutely terrible choice? Have an issue with the horn angle, OK, suggest an RCF box with a rotateable horn. Now we have the perfect system for said situation.................well maybe, but now we have an operator that by his own admission thinks music genre has nothing to do with the system selection. Why worry about the nats-ass details of the system when the operator clearly is early in the learning curve ? His actions running this system are going to have a far greater effect on the end result than the design of said system.

Apparently Sam has an enviable inventory at his disposal and from a purist standpoint, his position is hard to debate. But 10k only goes so far. I have far more than 10k in my system (about 5-6x) and I consistently find success with using essentially the same components for everything with just minor adjustments (maybe a front/center or side fill here or there, maybe a different horn this time)This is what I would call an SM57 situation. give the OP some suggestions for a system that will work quite well in a number of situations, maybe not perfect for any one of them but good enough for all of them. This isn't an install at the Kennedy Center where such attention to exact issues is demanded.

Hey Tommy,

Just checked back on this thread after a few days... I stopped looking after post 9 when I apologized for asking the question and admitted to not being a system tech or designer. Just irked me with your comment about my skill level. Think that might be a bigger assumption then others assuming about the space and speaker recommendations. I dropped this whole thing 2 pages ago. Just skimmed through it and saw your comment (already regret responding btw) maybe your right about my skill level but, people pay me to mix them in rooms like this on occasion... ok I cherry picked the photo but, still.

Best,
Attached Thumbnails
A 10k PA what would you buy?-img_0777.jpg  
Old 5th March 2014
  #75
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mixer mixer's Avatar
So OP/phanlon, what'd you decide on?

Contractor, gear, or contemplation still?
Old 5th March 2014
  #76
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I was asking for opinions for a friend. He has I think decided on the QSC kw153 kw181 combo. Think the desk is still out for debate he is weighing options. Mics, snakes, cables and stand are already covered as are monitors and possibly outboard. I was asking what I thought was a simple question had no idea I was stirring up such debate.
Old 5th March 2014
  #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OneEng View Post
I just haven't had good luck with sound in bar venues with flown speakers. I do believe that they were simply poorly placed and poorly setup, but this seems to be the big problem. It is just much harder to fly speakers and get good sound. You can almost never fly them where they need to be because the venue owner won't let you due to a host of personal reasons usually dealing with ascetics. I saw one recently when I was in Valencia Spain using some pretty nice turbosound speakers. There were 4 speakers surrounding a basically square dance area and the subs were clustered in front of the stage.

There were places in the room where things sounded OK, but it was very unballanced. Tons of nulls. Tons of comb filtering.

I am sure that someone thought that would be a great way to setup a system.
There are reasons most tours, large venues, etc. fly the speakers including that it can help tremendously with getting good sound and especially good coverage. I think you are right regarding the fact that many smaller bars or clubs with flown speakers are simply trying to open up floor space and where or how the speakers are flown, how they are aimed, etc. are determined by factors other than the resulting coverage, boundary cancellations and so on. Just didn't want people getting the impression that flying speakers was inherently a bad idea and if done properly it can actually be very beneficial in many situations.


Quote:
Originally Posted by phanlon View Post
I was asking for opinions for a friend. He has I think decided on the QSC kw153 kw181 combo. Think the desk is still out for debate he is weighing options. Mics, snakes, cables and stand are already covered as are monitors and possibly outboard. I was asking what I thought was a simple question had no idea I was stirring up such debate.
You only stirred up so much debate because some obviously believe that you did not provide the information necessary to offer an informed response. If you had responded regarding the system use and what the budget had to cover that were identified in some of the earlier responses then there likely would have been less debate and more recommendations.
Old 5th March 2014
  #78
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by phanlon View Post
Hey Tommy,

Just checked back on this thread after a few days... I stopped looking after post 9 when I apologized for asking the question and admitted to not being a system tech or designer. Just irked me with your comment about my skill level. Think that might be a bigger assumption then others assuming about the space and speaker recommendations. I dropped this whole thing 2 pages ago. Just skimmed through it and saw your comment (already regret responding btw) maybe your right about my skill level but, people pay me to mix them in rooms like this on occasion... ok I cherry picked the photo but, still.

Best,
Phanlon

Allow me to extend an apology on my assumption that you were a noob. Problem with these types of discussions rather than being face to face and gathering a lot more detail. Way too many flame wars in these types of exchanges, I don't need to be a culprit................sorry.
Old 5th March 2014
  #79
Lives for gear
Again, the more information people can give in their original post, the better the response will be. While it's good to see you do mix in fancy places, the level of info that you gave was so vague that I can understand how several people (myself included) surmised you didn't know much about gear.

MuseAV - Flying speakers aren't inherently a bad idea themselves. Average GS members that aren't licensed or knowledgeable trying to install flying speakers is an injury lawsuit waiting to happen and that is a bad idea. Kind of like talking about hooking up power distro boxes - if you don't know, probably should get an electrician...
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