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A 10k PA what would you buy? Modular Synthesizers
Old 1st March 2014
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy Hamm View Post
Has no one here ever toured with production? I've taken the same gear into a wide varieties of rooms without ever having to bust out a calculator... I don't recall ever having to consult with an acoustic engineer - ever.
Find out who the local FOH guys in your area that have likely played the room in question and ask them. I'd take their opinion over someone that walks in with a laptop, a measurement mic and a head full of ideals.
Andy - that's not being called into question. The OP's question was so vague that it wasn't clear if:

Venue was indoors or outdoors
Permanent or temp install
included anything beyond speakers
Was trickier than L-R stacks
Type of music being reinforced

Without that kind of information, people throwing out various brands and model numbers is ridiculous. With specifics, then yes, specific recommendations make more sense.
Old 2nd March 2014
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rockstar dave View Post
Because it's only $10k budget and there's only a few ways to do that.
Yes.

If the OP were to add other requirements, then perhaps my own suggestions would change.

I don't know WHAT you guys are thinking when you state that you can't get a PA FOR 10k that covers 250 people indoors. There are several ways to do this quite well.

One of the best sounding 10K rigs I have ever heard is the KW153's over KW181's.

Lets be clear on one thing here. We are talking about a room that holds no more than 250 people. You don't need to make this into a physics doctoral thesis. I play rooms like this all the time with the same DSR112 over PRX618S-XLF rig and it covers the rooms better than almost any other bands in my local area and sounds fantastic.

The only PA decision I ever have when I play a gig is weather to bring 2 or 4 subs. I really only need 4 in larger rooms than 200. 250 would be a toss-up.

The KW153's would be my pick for tops if I didn't care about the additional size and weight. The OP appears to be talking about a fixed install, so these would be perfect. They are clear, punchy, and very articulate. One per side will keep up with 2 per side KW181's for an expandable system.

For those who are complaining about this recommendation, how bad could this setup possibly sound? Under what condition would you recommend a different setup for the same stated 10K and 250 person gig?
Old 2nd March 2014
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by azndnbdub View Post
How do you know that your 75 degree conical coverage on the KW153 will be sufficient? Have you been to said venue?
They are great speakers in any room. Have you been to said venue to show me that they are not a good selection?

No need to overthink this one. Let's make it easy on him.
Old 2nd March 2014
  #34
KEL
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I agree. I don't feel its "ridiculous" to suggest some different setups that might fit the budget not having seen the space. I doubt any of us would fail if they brought a 60, 75 or 90 degree horn, like its some major blow-it. Like mentioned in this thread, many of us simply bring whatever rig they have into a show and make it work. I didn't recommend it but I feel the KW153 over 181 subs is pretty safe for 250 regardless of the acoustics. I have the HPR equivalent, two 153 tops over two or 4 181 subs. That's my middle size rig and I'd feel comfortable bringing that to any sub 300 audience gig. I also paid $5k for it. It's typical for me to bring that mains rig, 4-6 monitors on 4 mixes, amp racks for monitors, stands and all the trimmings...probably $10k worth, to many jobs. I would advance any gig of course but acoustics of the space isn't high on my list of questions
Old 2nd March 2014
  #35
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mixer mixer's Avatar
You guys have completely missed nedorama's post, he makes a very obvious point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nedorama View Post
The OP's question was so vague that it wasn't clear if:

Venue was indoors or outdoors
Permanent or temp install
included anything beyond speakers
Was trickier than L-R stacks
Type of music being reinforced

Without that kind of information, people throwing out various brands and model numbers is ridiculous. With specifics, then yes, specific recommendations make more sense.
Old 2nd March 2014
  #36
KEL
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Quote:
Originally Posted by azndnbdub View Post
You guys have completely missed nedorama's post, he makes a very obvious point.
I read that. Obviously there is information missing in order to make informed suggestions. Still, does it matter that much if its outside or in? I'd want to know what music it was, maybe how spread out the audience was, whether it was a captive audience or transient. Even then if I was to do a briefcase gig and they said 250 people, kw153 over 4 181 subs, I would have little cause for worry that I would fail with that rig. I'm not saying that's the best suggestion but it certainly is not a poor one. It seems we've scared the OP away anyhow.
Old 2nd March 2014
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OneEng View Post
I don't know WHAT you guys are thinking when you state that you can't get a PA FOR 10k that covers 250 people indoors.
Who said it was indoors???
Old 2nd March 2014
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KEL View Post
I read that. Obviously there is information missing in order to make informed suggestions. Still, does it matter that much if its outside or in? I'd want to know what music it was, maybe how spread out the audience was, whether it was a captive audience or transient. Even then if I was to do a briefcase gig and they said 250 people, kw153 over 4 181 subs, I would have little cause for worry that I would fail with that rig. I'm not saying that's the best suggestion but it certainly is not a poor one. It seems we've scared the OP away anyhow.
Interesting...

Yes, information is missing in order to make informed suggestions but let's make them anyway….not only that, I'm confident that whatever I suggest will work fine.
Old 2nd March 2014
  #39
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Wyllys's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by phanlon View Post
Venue size is about 250. what would you buy with that budget?

Thanks

Well, after all the usual hubbub I'd just say that I've seen entire turn-key systems of older gear go for pennies on the dollar. Yes, they're big, bulky and heavy and may need a little TLC as far as looks, but in the past 10 years a lot of these older systems have practically been given away.

The most recent one was four large dual 18 sub cabinets with matching mid/hi pacs enough to do upwards of 1000 rowdy rockers in a beer tent. Ugly gray carpeted boxes, big old power amps in two racks. Sounded great in the right hands.

The owner finally sold the cabs for $1500 and scrapped the amps...

There's stuff out there used if you look. As the saying goes, old PA gear never dies. You just see it getting used by people with budgets.
Old 2nd March 2014
  #40
KEL
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Samc View Post
Interesting...

Yes, information is missing in order to make informed suggestions but let's make them anyway….not only that, I'm confident that whatever I suggest will work fine.
Yup
Old 2nd March 2014
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wyllys View Post
Well, after all the usual hubbub I'd just say that I've seen entire turn-key systems of older gear go for pennies on the dollar. Yes, they're big, bulky and heavy and may need a little TLC as far as looks, but in the past 10 years a lot of these older systems have practically been given away.

The most recent one was four large dual 18 sub cabinets with matching mid/hi pacs enough to do upwards of 1000 rowdy rockers in a beer tent. Ugly gray carpeted boxes, big old power amps in two racks. Sounded great in the right hands.

The owner finally sold the cabs for $1500 and scrapped the amps...

There's stuff out there used if you look. As the saying goes, old PA gear never dies. You just see it getting used by people with budgets.
I have purchased many, many items from Guitar Center's Used Gear site over the years. They usually have a number of better boxes like EAW selling for cheap. With their great return policy (and the fact that they inspect the gear before purchase) it's a low risk buy.
Old 2nd March 2014
  #42
KEL
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75% or more of my inventory was bought used. JBL SRX, rmx4050s, Plx amps, 4 of my Hpr181, mics, stands, rack cases, AH mixers, etc...

I've not had good luck at GC on used gear. I stick to Craigslist or other tips.
Old 2nd March 2014
  #43
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mixer mixer's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Samc View Post
Interesting...

Yes, information is missing in order to make informed suggestions but let's make them anyway….not only that, I'm confident that whatever I suggest will work fine.
Quote:
Originally Posted by KEL View Post
Yup
Oh the irony, KEL you do realize Samc was being sarcastic?
Old 2nd March 2014
  #44
KEL
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Yea. I realize that. And I realize I contradicted myself too. Won't be the last time!
Old 2nd March 2014
  #45
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It seems that a number of the responses address the FoH speakers, however a PA system is not just FoH speakers, it typically also includes mics, a mixer, stands, monitors, amplifiers, DI boxes, cases, cables, power distro, system processing and so on. And that is probably why many are saying that we don't have sufficient information to answer the OP's question appropriately. Put another way, it may be possible to suggest some speakers that are a good generic solution but do those suggestions make sense for the application once all the other components of a complete and appropriate PA system are accommodated? I don't believe we have sufficient information to answer that question.

In my view purchasing used gear falls into two categories; when you can get test out the gear before purchasing it and/or know the related history versus when you are purchasing sight unseen from a party that you don't personally know. I find that the latter category generally represents much greater risk.
Old 2nd March 2014
  #46
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While it is true that there are great deals to be had in the used gear market with passive speakers and power amps, I only recommend passive systems to expert users who can get the processing, limiting, choice of amplifiers, cabling, etc, done right.

For the majority of people that just want a PA to plug in, and sound good without having to learn anything about phase alignment, driver delay, etc, powered speakers are the way to go.

The point museAV makes is true. The system described would be different if you had 10K just for speakers, and already had a mixer and microphones,etc. My specific recommendation included this, but I left the choices vague.

As for the idea that you can't just put together a good PA and have it work well in just any club ..... bahhh. I have been doing live gigs for 20 years. I am a sound snob and take my FOH very seriously for my band. Most of the bands in my area are elated if I agree to do a night out front for them with my gear even though they have their own systems.

Good is good. The OP said 250 or less and 10K budget. That is more than enough to pick out a few very good options.

BTW, I used to pink out rooms with an RTA a long time ago. Then I realized that I was simply annoying the venue owners and wasting my time. As for the 75deg conical horn comment. Really? Every bar I have ever played has different sound at different places in the bar. There is always nodes of heavy bass and comb filtering of HF across different areas of the venue.

I have used the KW153's and my DSR112's in many different settings. I never looked at the room and thought "Oh, I should have a 75 deg conical HF horn for this room".

What I did say was "hmmm. This is a bit big for a 2-way 12" top and a single sub per side. Perhaps a 3-way 15 over a pair of subs would be better for a place this big". I may even have decided to center cluster 4 subs to cover a deep dance floor more evenly, but usually even the placement of the speakers is dictated more by where it is possible for the speakers to be in a given venue than the most optimized for sound dispersion positioning.

When you get right down to it, your rarely get the opportunity to decide where your speakers will be located in most clubs. Outdoors .... sure.

Hopefully the OP will come back and read through this mess despite the fact that he was basically told that unless he wants to run a sound company, he shouldn't be purchasing a PA . There really are some good suggestions.
Old 2nd March 2014
  #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OneEng View Post
As for the idea that you can't just put together a good PA and have it work well in just any club ..... bahhh. I have been doing live gigs for 20 years. I am a sound snob and take my FOH very seriously for my band. Most of the bands in my area are elated if I agree to do a night out front for them with my gear even though they have their own systems.

Good is good. The OP said 250 or less and 10K budget. That is more than enough to pick out a few very good options.

BTW, I used to pink out rooms with an RTA a long time ago. Then I realized that I was simply annoying the venue owners and wasting my time. As for the 75deg conical horn comment. Really? Every bar I have ever played has different sound at different places in the bar. There is always nodes of heavy bass and comb filtering of HF across different areas of the venue.

I have used the KW153's and my DSR112's in many different settings. I never looked at the room and thought "Oh, I should have a 75 deg conical HF horn for this room".

What I did say was "hmmm. This is a bit big for a 2-way 12" top and a single sub per side. Perhaps a 3-way 15 over a pair of subs would be better for a place this big". I may even have decided to center cluster 4 subs to cover a deep dance floor more evenly, but usually even the placement of the speakers is dictated more by where it is possible for the speakers to be in a given venue than the most optimized for sound dispersion positioning.

When you get right down to it, your rarely get the opportunity to decide where your speakers will be located in most clubs. Outdoors .... sure.

Hopefully the OP will come back and read through this mess despite the fact that he was basically told that unless he wants to run a sound company, he shouldn't be purchasing a PA . There really are some good suggestions.
I get your points and it could very well be a valid assumption, but you seem to be assuming that this relates to a portable system for a club when I believe that all we actually know is that it is for a 250 capacity venue handling multiple genres of music. Might you approach things differently if it instead involves an installed system or a different type of venue? I'm not sure why we can't get answers to such basic questions, I guess we chased the OP off.
Old 2nd March 2014
  #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by museAV View Post
I get your points and it could very well be a valid assumption, but you seem to be assuming that this relates to a portable system for a club when I believe that all we actually know is that it is for a 250 capacity venue handling multiple genres of music. Might you approach things differently if it instead involves an installed system or a different type of venue? I'm not sure why we can't get answers to such basic questions, I guess we chased the OP off.
I agree that a little bit more information would help.

I am not sure that I would change my recommendation for a fixed install though. The only change would be if the venue required that the speakers be flown. To be honest, I have found IME that most any club that had the speakers flown sounded worse than just having tops over subs on a pole. Unless you are starting from scratch and can place speakers where the sound will be best, a simple front facing set of tops over subs will give you better sound in a small club. I have just seen way too many people get passive systems FUBAR'ed... same for flying speakers.

My local mega church has a fine sound system of a dual line array of mid and high speakers along with a triple array of subs. It holds around 5000 people and was most surely put together by a crack team with a complete sound model of the room. I had never seen a MIDAS XL8 before, so it is a treat to watch it in action on Sundays

I do get your point though. There is sufficient unknowns that the system I am recommending could be less than the ideal system (but IMHO it would still sound pretty darned good).
Old 2nd March 2014
  #49
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We can all spec a system that will sound good...but what's the use of a great sounding generic system if it's totally inappropriate for the venue???

When I'm going on tour with production my choice of PA will be dictated (in part) by the type of venues we will play...not just what sounds good.
Old 3rd March 2014
  #50
KEL
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Samc View Post
We can all spec a system that will sound good...but what's the use of a great sounding generic system if it's totally inappropriate for the venue???

When I'm going on tour with production my choice of PA will be dictated (in part) by the type of venues we will play...not just what sounds good.
Hypothetically speaking then, given the $10k budget for mains, 250 people in attendance, unknown everything else, using the Kw153 over 4x 181 suggestion(sorry, I forgot who recommended it) , what would make it a "totally inappropriate" choice? ...or, for that matter , something more expensive like RCF active? I believe that would be mote like $7000 at typical MI store prices.
Old 3rd March 2014
  #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Samc View Post
We can all spec a system that will sound good...but what's the use of a great sounding generic system if it's totally inappropriate for the venue???

When I'm going on tour with production my choice of PA will be dictated (in part) by the type of venues we will play...not just what sounds good.
Sam,

There are certainly more considerations that it sounding good. I get your point. Sounding good would be the baseline for an 10K FOH IMHO. Reliability, scale ability and ease of configuration would be some of the more important, but not obvious traits to look for. If you are going to be moving it, then size and weight are also a factor.
Old 3rd March 2014
  #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KEL View Post
Hypothetically speaking then, given the $10k budget for mains, 250 people in attendance, unknown everything else, using the Kw153 over 4x 181 suggestion(sorry, I forgot who recommended it) , what would make it a "totally inappropriate" choice? ...or, for that matter , something more expensive like RCF active? I believe that would be mote like $7000 at typical MI store prices.
Come on man, do you seriously need me to make you a list???? Please look at the post above this for some clues.

Did you guys realize that (depending on where it's located) by leaving the system on the floor the venues capacity could be reduced? What if they really need a smaller, flown distributed system because of the venue's layout/shape/configuration? What if they just need a really nice system for background music or a juke box? What if they can't use those big subs because that will put them in conflict with their neighbors? What if the system has to be small and light….I could go on.

A pair of plastic boxes on sticks (or on the subs) cannot be the solution to every sound system situation….it can't always be that easy.
Old 3rd March 2014
  #53
Gear Addict
 

But this time it is that easy.

Don't make things complicated. My suggestion of kw153 over 2 181s is great.
Old 3rd March 2014
  #54
KEL
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Where on this thread has a "plastic box" been mentioned? Yamaha DSR, QSC KW, RCF...all flyable, wood, light, scalable, distributed system friendly. Perhaps I work in different circles here in Ca but except for bigger concerts, clubs or 70v installed systems I've run across maybe 4 distributed systems in 15 years. And , I've yet to bring my band/playback/event system into a club, corporate event or small outside concert where I could not bring some configuration of my 26" footprint subs.
Old 3rd March 2014
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rockstar dave View Post
But this time it is that easy.

Don't make things complicated. My suggestion of kw153 over 2 181s is great.
You don't know that….in fact you CAN'T know that! based on the information we have.
Old 3rd March 2014
  #56
Gear Addict
 

So the OP spends his cash on the perfect system for this event. What happens when he does a different venue? Is he screwed because it isn't the "optimum" set up ? He probably can't afford multiple systems for multiple deployments, how many folks here can ?

There are levels of doing this that require such an approach, I get the impression that we're not talking about one of them.
Old 3rd March 2014
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KEL View Post
Where on this thread has a "plastic box" been mentioned? Yamaha DSR, QSC KW, RCF...all flyable, wood, light, scalable, distributed system friendly. Perhaps I work in different circles here in Ca but except for bigger concerts, clubs or 70v installed systems I've run across maybe 4 distributed systems in 15 years. And , I've yet to bring my band/playback/event system into a club, corporate event or small outside concert where I could not bring some configuration of my 26" footprint subs.
Plastic boxes because they sound like, and can be interchanged with plastic boxes…no one will ever put these boxes in the same category with Meyer systems.

V-Dosc and ARCS boxes are also flyable, relatively scaleable, wood, relatively light, distributed system friendly and sound a heap better than the boxes you suggested….how light is light enough and how small is small enough when you don't know the anything about the venue or the needs of the person buying the system?

Obviously, your logic is that since you've only run into 4 distributed systems and have always been able to use your subs, it stands to reason that this will be the configuration and needs of this space….

Good to know I can just bring a V-Dosc and Arcs system along for all future gigs…

Why are you guys still trying to defend your position on this issue when all of you have at some point admitted that the systems you're recommending may not be the best system for the situation?!?!

Is this how you guys do business…you try to shoehorn the one or two systems you know into every situation instead of creating a custom solution for each unique job? these are the same small group of systems I always see get thrown around every time someone asks for a recommendation.

The original advise to get a pro installer is still the best.
Old 3rd March 2014
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tommy Salami View Post
So the OP spends his cash on the perfect system for this event. What happens when he does a different venue? Is he screwed because it isn't the "optimum" set up ? He probably can't afford multiple systems for multiple deployments, how many folks here can ?

There are levels of doing this that require such an approach, I get the impression that we're not talking about one of them.
I think this may be another case where many automatically assume that the OP's situation and goals are the same as theirs when the reality is that situations and goals can vary widely.

It has been pointed multiple times that all that actually seems to be known is that the system apparently needs to serve a (singular) 250 capacity venue, that the system needs to support multiple genres of music and that they apparently have a $10k budget. So what in that information indicates that it is a portable system to be used in multiple venues or that the venues are clubs/bars? That very well might be the case but based on what has been presented the OP could also be working with a different type of venue and/or the house system for a venue.

As far as why 2 KW153 over 4 KW181 may not be a good idea, what if the stage is 'in the round' or a thrust stage with seating in front of and to the sides of the stage? What if the speakers have to be moved and setup by one person or the entire PA system transported in one car? What if it is a venue whose layout is such that the stage system only has to cover a limited area but requires fill speakers? And even if you ignore those types of "what if" scenarios, how do you plan to purchase the rest of the system, which for all we currently know may be starting from scratch, after spending around $7k to $8k on speakers?

What we really need is for the OP to clarify the situation, until they provide additional information then all that can be done is to wait or to offer recommendations based on assumptions or guesses that may or may not be valid and could thus potentially lead them in the wrong direction.
Old 3rd March 2014
  #59
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Wyllys's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Samc View Post


... the systems you're recommending may not be the best system for the situation?!?!
What situation would that be? The only info we've been given is 250 people...and I assume that is all at one time rather than 1 person 250 times.
Old 3rd March 2014
  #60
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czoli's Avatar
 

Anybody out there use l-acoustics? Every time one of the bigger churches in the valley rents these they sound extremely good.
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