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Delay dual mic'd instruments? hardware...
Old 22nd October 2013
  #1
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Delay dual mic'd instruments? hardware...

Hi, i'm looking for some hardware, who can help me to delay one microphone on dual mic'd instruments.

Perfect if it would be an analog delay, with adjustable delay between 0-10ms, and would prefer it's not "color" the sound. And have 4 or more I/O.
I would use it for kick, snare, floor-tom, bass, +++

I don't want phase-aligner. only a clean delay.

Any good hardware out there that can do this?
Thanks!
Old 22nd October 2013
  #2
KEL
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Some red flags go up without more information. Delay under 30-40 ms is a form of phase shift and you're using these on drums in a live context?
What are you planning on doing?
Old 22nd October 2013
  #3
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By adjusting phase the sound changes drastically.
Example a snare can go from lifeless-thin, to fat 80's, to piccolo snare sound in only 0-6ms.

I have done this with the m7cl, by sending the input channel to an omni, delay the omni out, and patch it into another channel. But this takes allot of time and has alot of drawbacks.
Old 22nd October 2013
  #4
KEL
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Ok. Good luck with that
Old 22nd October 2013
  #5
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You don't seem convinced :D
Have you ever tried it?
Old 22nd October 2013
  #6
KEL
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I'm open minded, and generally my advice is to go ahead and try something rather than just remark that it can't be done.

call me skeptical about this at best. Perhaps I'm old. set in my ways and have missed some new method for turning a fat snare into a piccolo.

I will tell you why i will never try it(in no particular order):

- have more important things to worry about on a gig "what would be cool on this song would be an Eagles type fat snare" is way, way down on the list..
-the size gigs I do are typically 500-2000 people gigs, bi, and triamped rigs, 24 channel shows. If I shut off the PA I can still hear plenty of drums. Therefore, I'm sort of doing parallel processing so whatever drastic changes i make to a sound are only going to be a portion of what makes it to an audience. Whether it's a large or small portion is directly related to how well any processing works.
-adding delays to individual drums has you chasing one sound and yet affecting another. For example, delaying the snare sound to line up with an overhead now changed its relationship to the kick, hat and tom mics. now where will you go?
-EQ and effects are enough for me. EQ is a form of phase adjusting.
-one can get trapped with "target fixation" and selective hearing by focussing on what you're attempting to shape vs the overall sound. this is a recording or live sound engineer's constant struggle; to re-evaluate and see the big picture, go back to a detail then refocus.
-overly complicated routings and additional gear doesn't interest me. I'm attempting to go the other way and bring less.
-the basics have worked for me over the course of 50+ albums in the studio and thousands of concerts; 3:1 rule, mic polar pattern nulls. mic selection, gain structure, modest EQ, compression, gating, proper system tuning. Is that being close minded? perhaps. Pragmatic?
-if this did work you'd have to adjust it in real time after a song started, not very inconspicuous
Old 22nd October 2013
  #7
113568
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i know a lot of digital desks can put delay on all their input channels, i think all the soundcraft ones can as can the avid profile etc.(and maybe the yamaha ones too?).

the closest ive come to doing that is the classic double snare mic when you phase reverse the bottom mic. you can also do this with bass mic/di and kick I/O. never got more detailed than just a polarity reverse though.

come to think of it I do know some people like to delay everything so it lines up with the backline on stage, and even delaying everything to the kick drum on some gigs, but this is generally with digital desks.

I guess what you are looking for is the same kind of delays that people use to delay speakers, so I would suggest looking down that route. Im afraid I cant name any specific kit for that though. Also I wouldnt rule out digital as I think you are going to find a lot more options there, I don't think any delay is truly analogue all the way through it's signal path other than say a tape delay (although will happily be proved wrong on this point).
Old 23rd October 2013
  #8
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Found out that the Yamaha CL5 mixer (witch i also use) has input delay :D
Problem solved!!!
Let the fat kick come to me! Amen
Old 23rd October 2013
  #9
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"Analog delays" are created by using "bucket brigade devices" (BBD's) that charge and store the input for a very short delay. Multiple BBD's are then strung together to yield slap-back echo effects. Or modulated to create chorusing and/or flanging effects...
By nature analog delays are noisey and the HF response drops quickly (can you say "dull"?). They are awesome on electric guitars but hateful on drums, just too "lo-fi".
Stick to digital in this circumstance. And learn to TUNE YER DRUMS!!!!!!

Last edited by Deleted User; 23rd October 2013 at 12:15 AM.. Reason: branephardt
Old 23rd October 2013
  #10
113568
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonbaby View Post
"Analog delays" are created by using "bucket brigade devices" (BBD's) that charge and store the input for a very short delay. Multiple BBD's are then strung together to yield slap-back echo effects. Or modulated to create chorusing and/or flanging effects...
By nature analog delays are noisey and the HF response drops quickly (can you say "dull"?). They are awesome on electric guitars but hateful on drums, just too "lo-fi".
Stick to digital in this circumstance. And learn to TUNE YER DRUMS!!!!!!
interesting! could you give an example of one of these pieces of kit?
Old 23rd October 2013
  #11
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Electrolytic's Avatar
 

Sabine SDA102 Correction Delay
Old 23rd October 2013
  #12
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GZsound's Avatar
I have a gig coming up where I need delay speakers and didn't want to spend a lot of money for a one time deal.

I bought a Behringer Ultra Curve Pro for $15. Has a delay feature that you can set in ms or feet.

For cheap find a used one.
Old 23rd October 2013
  #13
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Aisle 6's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jarnes View Post
By adjusting phase the sound changes drastically.
Example a snare can go from lifeless-thin, to fat 80's, to piccolo snare sound in only 0-6ms.

I have done this with the m7cl, by sending the input channel to an omni, delay the omni out, and patch it into another channel. But this takes allot of time and has alot of drawbacks.
I love crazy ideas and I must admit that all my experience tells me that you are crazy...but I also NEVER want to be closed off to new ideas. Let me/us all know what you are doing and what you are achieving. Sharing is caring and all that.
Old 24th October 2013
  #14
Gear Maniac
 

I do this all the time at FOH with dual miced kicks, snares and guitars using the Radial Phaser. Its a killer tool, very easy to use and built like a tank
Old 24th October 2013
  #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisJohnsonUK View Post
I do this all the time at FOH with dual miced kicks, snares and guitars using the Radial Phaser. Its a killer tool, very easy to use and built like a tank
so you drop this in as an insert, and align the inner or the outer mic? and then it sounds chest cavity punchy?


oh my days, next purchase.
Radial Phazer..... is it a waste of money?
IBP Jr. or Radial Phazer?
Old 24th October 2013
  #16

I've run short delays on the OH to keep the snare tight. It works well.

For the other mics on the kit, gates are the traditional way to deal with the snare "thinning". Gates are a lot faster to set-up....

Just realize that if you optimize OH and Tom mics for the snare, the other toms will NOT be aligned. Cymbals are rarely an issue when it comes to comb filtering.



-tINY

Old 24th October 2013
  #17
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All you need is about 1800 miles of mic cable to delay a signal by 10 ms. Pure analog sweetness.
Old 24th October 2013
  #18
KEL
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2pulse View Post
All you need is about 1800 miles of mic cable to delay a signal by 10 ms. Pure analog sweetness.
So, one snare mic straight in the board, the other through the 1800 mile cord(Belden is going to be very happy) and I can turn my piccolo snare into a big fat snare or is it the other way around?
Old 24th October 2013
  #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KEL View Post
So, one snare mic straight in the board, the other through the 1800 mile cord(Belden is going to be very happy) and I can turn my piccolo snare into a big fat snare or is it the other way around?
Depends which way you run the cable. Be sure to have 2 turnarounds handy.
Old 24th October 2013
  #20
113568
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if your cable crosses the equator then the phase goes the other way remember
Old 25th October 2013
  #21
Gear Head
 

ive been reading a lot about time delaying things lately, and ****ing with things like this sounds like a phasey ****ty mess to me.
Old 25th October 2013
  #22
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jfpenkala's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jarnes View Post
Found out that the Yamaha CL5 mixer (witch i also use) has input delay :D
Problem solved!!!
Let the fat kick come to me! Amen
For the kick drum, have you thought about experimenting with various single mics and finding the optimum position for it? It's more work up front but worth it in the end.
Old 25th October 2013
  #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jfpenkala View Post
For the kick drum, have you thought about experimenting with various single mics and finding the optimum position for it? It's more work up front but worth it in the end.
I completely agree.

The whole dual-miced kick thing is generally a poor substitute for having the right mic.

I first started doing it because everyone else was doing it. Eventually I tried different mics and ended up stopping.

I still often spec dual miced kicks, but more because often a big dynamic like a D6 works great out front, but a Beta 91 is better for IEM use..
Old 26th October 2013
  #24
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Aisle 6's Avatar
I think it is more horses for courses. I use single kick mic for certain shows. In fact most shows, but then there are certain shows where I specify dual mic'd kik. I still spend time with positioning etc as this is not a substitute for positioning, just an enhancement for the style.

Most acts I use a single kik mic and find the mic for the kit/act
A couple of acts I use a single mic and dual assign it to two channels for different processing
A couple of acts I use two mics, but I still find the mic and position appropriate for the kit/act.

Horses for courses.
Old 26th October 2013
  #25
Registered User
Ugh. "Kick, snare, floor tom and bass" (guitar?). And you want dual mics on each? About 3 meters away from each other? (10 ms delay = 3.4 meters)?

And your going to delay the close mics 10ms just to match the distance mics??

I know your joking when you say an analog delay would be perfect ...

I think a little text book theory has gone to your head ...
Old 14th November 2013
  #26
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Kiwi, 10ms? you clearly put words in my mouth... a 10ms would be waaaay to much! I'm phase correcting(whatever phase that points towards the sound i want), I'm not trying to make it an single repeat effect delay?

I know it works. And if i got the time, and the situation could benefit from it YES I'm going to try it!
Old 14th November 2013
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jfpenkala View Post
For the kick drum, have you thought about experimenting with various single mics and finding the optimum position for it? It's more work up front but worth it in the end.
This is so simple and sensible and the answer so clear that it is painfully clear that many people don't actually test ideas and concepts for themselves they just parrot what they hear and read from others. This two mic on the kick never got past the test stage with me because I never thought it sounded better than the right mic in the right place. Of course because of expectation bias people can and will believe what they want regardless of reality.

I don't even try to align various parts of the kit because in reality the different components of the kit are not in one single spot so by aligning them we are creating an artificial situation. I don't see the point in doing gimmicky things just for the sake of doing them but some people like to use 'tricks'….All things being equal why would a bass drum need one mic in one situation but need two mics in another situation?
Old 14th November 2013
  #28
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when i mix metal, my sm91 and b52 makes the sound i want... and a single b52 wont simply do the job!
Old 15th November 2013
  #29
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As was suggested above maybe you could try a different mic than the 52…you could also try a different placement and processing it differently….who knows what might happen then.

Is there only one bass drum sound that works for you when you mix metal? If that's the case I take it then that all the drummers play the same and all the bands sound exactly the same?
Old 18th November 2013
  #30
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Samc - The forum scum feat. Mr.literally
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