The No.1 Website for Pro Audio
 All  This Thread  Reviews  Gear Database  Gear for sale     Latest  Trending
Building a new system! Need Help!
Old 16th October 2013
  #1
Here for the gear
 

Building a new system! Need Help!

Hey everybody! I am a long time Gearslutz lurker, but first time poster! I have been doing live sound for 5 or 6 years now, and mostly using borrowed equipment owned by the theaters and bands I've been working for. I have decided that I needed to branch out and build a system that I can call my own! This will mainly be for live rock bands in small to medium sized bars and clubs. I have done some research and put together a system, but am having all sorts of second thoughts. I wanted to run my current build by y'all and see what you would add, subtract, or change! I would also appreciate suggestions tips on wiring and optimal signal flow (I know the basics, but just wondering if there are any special quirks to anything here). Thanks in advance!

4 PV12M's on a Crown XTI 1000
2 PV215's on a Crown XTI 4000
2 PV118's on a Crown XTI 2000

A slew of XLR and TRS cables as well as a 16 Channel Stage Snake
4 SM58's for VOX
4 PG56's for Rack drums and Snare
3 SM57's for Guitars
2 PG81's for Drum Overheads
and a PG52 for the Kick

A Behringer X32 for the Mixer

A50D clips for drums
MS7701B for 58's, 81's and 57's
MS7920B for the 52

Then I have a 12u SKB rack
with the 3 amps
a 3u Drawer
a 1u vent
PV23XO crossover, which I'm not sure if I need
and a Furman M8-Lx Power Conditioner

Thanks a bunch!
Old 16th October 2013
  #2
Lives for gear
 
mixer mixer's Avatar
IMO this is what I'd change if budget can be increased...

Have you looked at active cabs? Or are you dead set on passive?

If you're set on passive, I'd switch to Yamaha Club in this arrangement:
- 4x SM12V on 2x QSC GX5
- 2x S115V on QSC GX7
- 2x SW118V on QSC GX7
- 2x pole sticks or speaker stands
- 8x speakon cables
- dbx 223xs crossover (yes you need one)

For active cabs, I go Yamaha DXR & DXS (budget) or DSR (money's no object)
- 4x 12" monitors
- 2x 12" mains
- 2x subs
- crossover is built-in so no external one needed.

IMO I'd upgrade drum mics, PG mics are crap.
- Shure Beta 52a
- Shure SM57
- 3x Shure Beta 56a
- 3x Shure SM137
- Or you can go Audix, Audio-Technica, or Sennheiser.

The A50D clips won't work with the beta mics so I recommend something like LP claw or similar.

X32 has a remote stage box, which makes the copper snake obsolete. Have you looked at other digital boards such as Si Expression?

For mic stands, K&M are more durable than on-stage.

The power conditioner you listed is just the same as a cheap power strip, if you want real protection, look up Furman AR1215 or similar.

I hook up amps to direct power, they don't go to rack power.
Old 16th October 2013
  #3
Lives for gear
 

Do you need cases or some way to store and transport all the mics, cables, snake, etc.? A case for the mixer? What about DI boxes and adapters? Mic stands? What about power distribution on stage and to FoH? Seems like there may be a lot of ancillary items not listed.

You list 14 mics on stage and have not addressed bass, keys, etc., so is a 16 channel snake sufficient? On the other hand, do you really need seven drums mics in most small club/bar scenarios?

What are the goals for your system? Is there some budget number you are trying to meet?
Old 16th October 2013
  #4
Lives for gear
 

Your subwoofers can be vastly improved with Yorkville LS808's. Double-15" mains are kind of pointless with subwoofers, since the lower woofer is really just a crappy subwoofer with the mids filtered out. They aren't any louder in the mids or treble.

Ditch the PG drum mics, on the cheap the nice drum mics are from CAD or the Audix Fusion series. The lowest I'd go for overheads is Studio Projects C4's or Oktava MC012's, though I prefer Rode NT5's. Audio Technicas are good too, but in smaller rooms they're too bright IMO. The PG81's are still useful for hand drums and hats, but you can sell off the tom mics.
Old 16th October 2013
  #5
Here for the gear
 

Thanks for all the quick replies! Just to clarify, I haven't bought any of this stuff yet. The only thing I do have is the SKB 12u road rack, and that's because an old friend upgraded his setup. I will definitely look into better crossovers more. I do have mic stands cables and racks listed, and for most of my gigs having equipment for 4 singers, 3 guitarists and a drummer has been sufficient. No real budget, but within reason. Also for the X32's stage snake, I like it, but it is just a little to pricey for my purposes. Thanks again.
Old 16th October 2013
  #6
KEL
Lives for gear
 

what size gigs?
is there a soundman or you run it from the stage? since you listed a snake, I assumed a sound man..
how many separate monitor mixes? looks like limited to two, given the amp and snake
why the Peavey rig? not that it's a poor choice..
yes, skip the PG miss. Fewer better quality will be the way to go. I'd rather have 3 or 4 good mics on drums than every drum mic'd with brittle less expensive mics.

I don't think the Yamaha clubs are any better than the Peaveys. The yamaha DSR or DXR are better.
I sure would not want to lift 215 cabs in and out. There is also a question of how to mount such cabs to get the correct height. a single sub with a 215 cab is typically too low.

the X32 scares me a little right now. this sure seems like a 16 channel band.
Old 16th October 2013
  #7
Here for the gear
 

So to offer a little background, I have kind of taken on the role of sound man for several area bands and have been getting tired using their equipment and want to get a rig I can call my own. This rig is designed around a band that I work with most often, but can be used universally. I had a friend recommend the Peavy's for the price to performance ratio, but I am open to anything. I could scrap the entire list and start from nothing if that is what ya'll suggest. I like the X32 because it seems to be future proof, and I can grow with it. 2 monitor mixes seems to be enough for most gigs, but the more the merrier! Also, I am offstage.
Old 16th October 2013
  #8
Gear Maniac
 

I use Yorkville Unity15's over LS800p's
YX12's and YX15's for monitors
IPR3000 to power the U15's
IPR1600's to powe the YX12's and YX15's
Old 16th October 2013
  #9
KEL
Lives for gear
 

way cool. sounds exciting.

There is nothing wrong with the Peaveys. They will work. again, consider how you'll be able to get them tall enough, that's important..and whether you are doing this by yourself if you want to lift them each gig. what is that, 90lbs? Consider also, that you may be offered a bigger gig at some point. Is your rig scalable, expandable? Brand wise, and as far as what you're doing, I wpould not worry about what badge is on the speakers.

I don't know if the Peavey is like the Yamaha cabinet where it has a pseudo subwoofer for the bottom 15" speaker crossed at around 350hz. If it does you have some potential crossover issues and really only a 15+ horn cab working for you. the other thing is there is no getting around that it's a $299ea cabinet , meaning that maybe you might find something used that is a $700 cabinet for the same price. the Peavey SP series is much more rockin'

Things to look for used that are better: JBL MRX, EV TourX.

given that you like the Peavey, some other things to consider:

get a bigger snake than you think. longer. more channels if you can afford it. Get 8 returns(sends) please. that will allow you to create more monitor mixes and put the Xover at FOH if you want.

get a good kick drum mic at least. then sm57s and 58s to fill in.
get yourself 3 or 4 DI boxes, nice basic passive ones, like whirlwind, or Livewires.
dont put your amps on the Furman
did you budget for Speakons? add a few hundred. Go here for speakons, snake and the best for a good price:
Audiopile Products, EWI Cables and Cases

xti1000 a bit slim on power for monitors but will work just fine

look at at least a wireless mic to have. you'll get other jobs and someone will ask.

The Presonus SL prices are dropping with the competition and their own new model, it's something to consider, and a proven design. If you happen to have a decent laptop you can also do some recording that might turn into extra income
Old 17th October 2013
  #10
Here for the gear
 

Thanks, so you suggest I scrap my list and start a new? If so, where'd you go with it?
Old 17th October 2013
  #11
Lives for gear
 
mixer mixer's Avatar
For the most part, if you're content with the x32, in addition to a couple of 58's & 57's, IMO that would be the only stuff I'd keep.

Have you look at Soundcraft Si Expression?

Like what others are saying, here's a list of what to factor in:
- ditch the PG mics, there are better sounding drum mics for same pricing.
- at least 25ft. mic cables
- if going passive, speakon cables.
- at least a 100ft. 24 channel 8 return snake or 2 s16's with 100ft. ethercon. (future-proofing)
- at least 2 wireless mics (I highly recommend Sennheiser ew100 G3 series, PGX is crap)
- at least 4 good DI's (I second Whirlwind)

Regarding why I put Yamaha: I've demo'ed both brands and I say Yamaha Club V series does sound better than the Peavey PV series, and it's not because of price level but because of clarity and thump from the Yamaha's, plus I've had experience with both brands in the past. However, I also put in a single 15" as the main, not the dual 15" as it is a bear to lug around without a dolly.

For speakers: can OP get used ones?
Old 17th October 2013
  #12
Here for the gear
 

I can go with used, as long as they are fully functional obviously. I do love the X32 (I have operated one, just never OWNED one haha), and passive is not a must. If I do go with passive, are the Crown XTI's good stuff? s16's are just so expensive to start, but wouldn't be a bad upgrade down the line. I Will definitely ditch the PG series, only had them because they were part of a set that I saw at my local shop. I'm sorry for all these questions, I've been working with this stuff for a while and I know stuff, but I'm one of those guys who second guesses himself and does years of research to buy 1 mic. hahaha
Old 17th October 2013
  #13
Lives for gear
 
mixer mixer's Avatar
Crown XTI is good, though I never use the built-in DSP so it's a waste for me.

If you want to go active, not saying you have to, the good ones are at the price range of the Yamaha DXR12 tops and QSC KW181 subs, that's well over $700 USD per top and $1400 USD per sub.

Not that there's anything wrong with the Peavey's, but they have a low max SPL rating of 118dB for both tops and subs you listed if they were pushed with 800w max while the powered cabs are in the 132db - 135dB range max SPL. for 1kW.

I was in the same boat, researching left & right for a good wireless mic system. I keep second guessing on different models, then settled on a sennheiser ew 100 G3 system and never looked back!
Old 17th October 2013
  #14
Here for the gear
 

Well, I appreciate all the help! Keep it flowing! I'll do a little more research, really look at my budget and the gigs I plan to do, and I hope to present an updated list, that might be a little more optimized for my workflow.
Old 18th October 2013
  #15
Lives for gear
 
hbphotoav's Avatar
 

If you know gear, and can take the time and effort to demo used gear, I can heartily recommend that route. I'm still occasionally using EV Sx500 tops over Community subs that I bought used in the late '80s/early '90s. They were usually driven with a Mackie SR32 (I'm on a PreSonus SL 24.4.2 now) console that was purchased used in '99, through (used) EV 31-band graphics and a EV System 200 active crossover. While I could still use the QSC MX1500 power amps I've also had since the '80s, I'm going with reclaimed Yamaha P-series power amps for a remote worship location we're opening this weekend. When I tested the system with Sx500s over CSX60S2 subs that served me well back in the day, the clear LF winner was the Yamaha IS1218 subs we used for four years of "church-in-a-movie-theater" before our installation in 2009. We're talking decent sounds from the music-store Community boxes... but some real nice tone at volume from the Yamahas.

All that is to say, if you can find decent used gear in 2's and 4's (I ran shows for a good part of the '90s on four Community XLT46s over four CSX60S2 subs... powered by a pair of QSC MX1500s and and a pair of Model 1400s, all bought used with a total investment of somewhere around $4500) you can always go upmarket from the "usual" GC stuff for half to 1/3 the cost of new gear in the same league. I still own most of this stuff, and it still functions. The Sx500 was a clear improvement over the XLTs for pattern and clarity, and 4 of them on eBay for $1,600 about 8 years ago was a deal I couldn't pass up.

Mileage may vary... and if you can't audition used gear with which you have no experience, or need the comfort of a OEM warranty, new stuff might be a better fit for you.

That said, I'll echo the previous posters about buying up-market from most of what you originally spec'd. While I love the Behringer HA8000 headphone amp... it's the ONLY piece of Behringer gear I've ever owned (AutoComms, active DIs, the original design of the UltraCurve stereo EQ) that didn't fail onsite, at some point. If you don't mind the weight, Peavey CS400 and CS800 amps are incredibly under-rated, over-built and hard to kill... and are available most anywhere for $200-$400. With mics... if it's not a SM57 or 58 or better... why bother?

It's all about the transducers. Spending good money on solid used mics and speakers (as opposed to cheap new stuff) will rarely disappoint. If the amp(s) you buy have adequate power for headroom, brand is (IMO) important mainly regarding build quality. And those of us around since Behringer's introduction have a pretty steep climb to get over on-site disappointments.

One old guy's opinion.

HB
Old 18th October 2013
  #16
Here for the gear
 

Thanks! The only thing I like about Behringer is the X32 console... I've been fixing house racks in theaters that are filled with Behringer too long for me to buy anything Behringer, but the X32 strikes a different chord.
Old 18th October 2013
  #17
Gear Nut
 

Dear Lightfoot26,

Glad to hear you are interested in the X32.

If I can answer any product or setup questions, please hit me with a PM anytime.

Best of luck with putting your new system together!

Best Regards,
Joe Sanborn
Manager, Product Support
MUSIC Group
BEHRINGER
Old 18th October 2013
  #18
Here for the gear
 

So how would you all suggest doing power then? Sometimes club/bar power is sketchy at best, but I shouldn't plug amps into rack power?
Old 19th October 2013
  #19
Lives for gear
 

I suggest starting with thinking of how you envision using the system. For example, mains with 15" or dual 15" woofers may make sense if you want to also potentially use the mains alone without subs for some events, but if you will always use the mains with subs then mains with 12" woofers may be lighter, smaller and less expensive. If you might work in both narrow rooms and wide rooms you may want to consider purchasing two arrayable narrower pattern mains per side and then using one per side for long venues and two per side for wide venues. Similar in terms of other equipment, think about how you may actually use it and what might be most effective.

Also put on your business hat and think about things in terms of return on investment. Does it make sense to purchase something you may not use that often or might it be better to at least initially rent that when it is necessary? Does it make sense in some cases to invest a bit more upfront if that might get you more work or higher rates?

My view on demo gear is that it can be a great option or a bad one, it all depends on the situation. If you can audition the gear, know its history, can make any repairs required, etc. then it can be a great value. However, if you are buying sight unseen from an unknown party then that's a much greater risk.

You mentioned the issues with club power and that is something to consider in putting together your system. What power might you have to work with? Can you scale back your system if necessary? How do you distribute the power for the system?
Old 20th October 2013
  #20
Here for the gear
 

Ok, How about a quick, dirty, and ugly diagram of EVERYTHING I plan to have for the new system? Here it is! I know it's ugly, but its a quick mock up of my ideas... I have attached it below! enjoy!
Attached Thumbnails
Building a new system! Need Help!-setup.jpg  
Old 20th October 2013
  #21
Lives for gear
 
Wyllys's Avatar
 

Hold your horses there, Sport.

You've got four power amps plugged into a 15 amp AR1215. You'll want to provide two 15 amp circuits for your amps...or better yet, two 20 amp circuits.

And you've left the digital mixer unprotected from voltage variations.

Use the AR1215 for the X32 and your FOH gear as it is intended. Your amps do not need the voltage regulation and DO need more amps than the 1215 will handle.

Otherwise you're looking good.
Old 20th October 2013
  #22
Here for the gear
 

Thanks, I wasn't thinking and did draw those lines there. Wasn't actually intending on doing that. lol Thanks for catching that. I was going to ask how you guys would do it. I have the 12u rack already, and would like to stay within that. I'd keep it on stage with the s16, 4 amps, and crossover in it. This creates two problems though, I only have 1u for a power conditioner for that rack, and don't have any RU space at FOH for the mixer power, cause I have no rack at FOH! I was thinking of just getting a non rackmount surge strip style conditioner for the mixer, which is the only thing I really need to power at FOH, but I still don't know how to power 4 amps, a crossover and an s16 with 1u. Probably can't, but are there any suggestions that would keep me from getting a bigger rack or another rack? Thanks! Again, I know how to run the systems more than I know how to build them proper. So any and all feedback is greatly appreciated!
Old 20th October 2013
  #23
Lives for gear
 
Electrolytic's Avatar
 

what about the Bass Guitar? you going to use a SM57?
how about a DI box?
and two more for Keys / laptop / samples / backing tracks to get into your xlr mic pre s16, ground lift if needed.
Old 20th October 2013
  #24
Here for the gear
 

I'm building this system around a band that I do the most work for. (I would use a 57 on bass, rhythm and lead guitars) as for my other gigs it'll work as well for the most part. Upgrading to add DI, wireless, samples, keys, ect. is something I would do later to build into an existing system and thus build my clientele.
Old 21st October 2013
  #25
Lives for gear
 
Wyllys's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lightfoot26 View Post
Thanks, I wasn't thinking and did draw those lines there. Wasn't actually intending on doing that. lol Thanks for catching that. I was going to ask how you guys would do it. I have the 12u rack already, and would like to stay within that. I'd keep it on stage with the s16, 4 amps, and crossover in it. This creates two problems though, I only have 1u for a power conditioner for that rack, and don't have any RU space at FOH for the mixer power, cause I have no rack at FOH! I was thinking of just getting a non rackmount surge strip style conditioner for the mixer, which is the only thing I really need to power at FOH, but I still don't know how to power 4 amps, a crossover and an s16 with 1u. Probably can't, but are there any suggestions that would keep me from getting a bigger rack or another rack? Thanks! Again, I know how to run the systems more than I know how to build them proper. So any and all feedback is greatly appreciated!
You don't need any kind of "power conditioner" for your amps. In fact, putting your amps on one of them is probably going to cause you problems when it trips...which is likely with amps.

You DO need a voltage regulator for your digital desk, and likely for your digital stage box. You can use less expensive, stand alone units from TrippLite, one for the board and one for the stage box. Each will cost less than $100.00. Each is desirable and necessary if you are using venue power at random locations.

Better yet is an in-line UPS for the digital mixer. But as long as you have voltage regulation your equipment will be safe.

A "power conditioner" does not regulate voltage. Neither does is "condition" the power. It is an outlet strip by another name, albeit with flimsy "surge protectors" which do nothing to protect your digital gear.
Old 21st October 2013
  #26
Here for the gear
 

Sorry, I probably used the word "Conditioner" incorrectly, thanks! A few questions, Are you suggesting I plug the amps straight into the wall (on different circuits)? And do you have a specific 1u unit that you would suggest for the s16 and dbx 223sx power at the rack? Also, a specific non rackmount unit for the mixer power?
Old 21st October 2013
  #27
Lives for gear
 
mixer mixer's Avatar
Lookin' good! Kinda looks like what I suggested...
Old 21st October 2013
  #28
Lives for gear
 
Wyllys's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lightfoot26 View Post
Sorry, I probably used the word "Conditioner" incorrectly, thanks! A few questions, Are you suggesting I plug the amps straight into the wall (on different circuits)? And do you have a specific 1u unit that you would suggest for the s16 and dbx 223sx power at the rack? Also, a specific non rackmount unit for the mixer power?
Inexpensive voltage regulation for FOH:

Cookies on tripplite.com

You can use another one for your stage box or use a rack-mount unit such as an AR1215 or the TrippLite version:

Cookies on tripplite.com

I'm done here.
Old 21st October 2013
  #29
Here for the gear
 

Thanks! I have updated the sheet. All feedback welcome! You gearslutz are awesome!
Attached Thumbnails
Building a new system! Need Help!-live-sound-setup.jpg  
Old 23rd October 2013
  #30
Here for the gear
 

Also, I'm considering dropping an SM57 and adding another Beta 52... for the bass cab.
Topic:
Post Reply

Welcome to the Gearslutz Pro Audio Community!

Registration benefits include:
  • The ability to reply to and create new discussions
  • Access to members-only giveaways & competitions
  • Interact with VIP industry experts in our guest Q&As
  • Access to members-only sub forum discussions
  • Access to members-only Chat Room
  • Get INSTANT ACCESS to the world's best private pro audio Classifieds for only USD $20/year
  • Promote your eBay auctions and Reverb.com listings for free
  • Remove this message!
You need an account to post a reply. Create a username and password below and an account will be created and your post entered.


 
 
Slide to join now Processing…
Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Forum Jump
Forum Jump