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Large format PA Systems - preferences Consoles
Old 15th May 2013
  #1
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Large format PA Systems - preferences

What large format PA system do you prefer for Pop and Rock Shows?

I've tried almost all of the brands... The ones that i prefer are:

L acoustics - V-Dosk (for me its still the most well balanced with proportinoal power)(never tried the K1... but i guess its even better)

D&B Audiotechnik - J series (very transparent and beautifull mids and highs...)

Adamson y series (very powerfull and tight bass, upper range great but a little bit more harsh than the above)

Nexu Geo T (well balanced and powerfull sound... but it sounds a bit too processed to my hears)

JBL Vertec (not my kind... subs not tight.... upper range a bit mid rangy to my hears.)

There are some more ... what your preferences?
Old 15th May 2013
  #2
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I really like the new NEXO STM system

L'Acoustics Vdosc is very musical sounding
D&B "J" is very satisfying.

I used to not like the Vertec but since they updated the patches and attenuated the horns a **** load, they do alright. Plenty of power.
Old 15th May 2013
  #3
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As long as the boxes come with an excellent system tech I'm happy using any of the top models.
Bad rooms, poor weather and pish bands are way more problematic
Old 15th May 2013
  #4
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Meyer sound leo milo mica .
Or any other array large enough and provided there's a competent system tech.
Old 15th May 2013
  #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ssaudio View Post
As long as the boxes come with an excellent system tech I'm happy using any of the top models.
Bad rooms, poor weather and pish bands are way more problematic
Too true!
Old 15th May 2013
  #6
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ok... but even knowing that all of the top systems are good enough, there are diferences... What i would like to know is what your preferences... or you dont look at techical riders to aprove or to ask for a system? (its what i would like to know... whats on the top of your list on your main gig technical rider)
Old 15th May 2013
  #7
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I personally tend to lean toward the Vertec. That is largely because I have a lot more experience mixing on them and tuning them tho, as that is what the sound company I worked for owned and used regulary.

I have mixed on many other systems as well (Nexo, Martin, EV, LAcoustics), and I will agree with others here that any of the better names will/can sound great provided they are set up properly and the system is tuned for the room (and it's a decent room lol). I've done gigs with the Vertec where I've actually gotten comments that they "didn't sound like Vertec (in a good way)" because I had them set up well and the processing was set well. A good mix never helps either! You can have the "best" system in the world, but if your mix sucks, it sucks!

To each their own... again, respected name rig, good set up/tuning, and you should be good to go.

Oh, and for what it is worth to the OP, we didn't use the Vertec subs... We had the 4887's (mid size box) and used Community TLF218 subs (usually... we had some other types of subs too) either stacked or flown depending on the gig.
Old 15th May 2013
  #8
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Old 15th May 2013
  #9
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A good room, with a well teched out system and a good band is all you can hope for. All the above systems in a bad room, or badly teched out will be a struggle to mix on.
Old 15th May 2013
  #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Miramar_sessions View Post
ok... but even knowing that all of the top systems are good enough, there are diferences... What i would like to know is what your preferences... or you dont look at techical riders to aprove or to ask for a system? (its what i would like to know... whats on the top of your list on your main gig technical rider)
Seriously, I don't care. It's the people that count and cause the problems. For sure, there are differences, but it's been over 25 years since they have been a serious issue.
Yes, for a one off event I might be picky, but a tour? No chance.

All the top gear is amazing these days...and costs (relatively) little to hire...happy days for enginneers

Cheers

Mickey
Old 15th May 2013
  #11
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Cool

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roland View Post
A good room, with a well teched out system and a good band is all you can hope for. All the above systems in a bad room, or badly teched out will be a struggle to mix on.
Hi Roland...

thanks for your comment, but that was said already.

I think you still havent understood the meaning of my post...

I didnt ask what are the important things to do a great sound on a venue... Of course i know all that chain...

I bet you agree that a Porche is a great car... and of course you know that if the road its completely ****ed of, if the guy who fix the car sucks and the car its not well maintenanced, and if you dont know how to drive one.... you will have troubles with that car... And that will be the same if you buy a ferrari instead.... but that its not an excuse for you not to have a preference about which one you prefer the most, and why.... The Porche its not a Ferrari.... Both are great cars, but diferent... As all the major PA systems... I know that you can do or not a great job with almost everyone of it... But if you have to choose, its great if you know which one is the best for your needs and why...
Old 15th May 2013
  #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ssaudio View Post
Seriously, I don't care. It's the people that count and cause tye problems. For sure, there are differences, but it's been over 25 years since they have been a serious issue.
Yes, for a one off event I might be picky, but a tour? No chance.

All the top gear is amazing these days...and costs (relatively) little to hire...happy days for enginneers

Cheers

Mickey
Hey Mickey, i understand and agree with your post about the happy days for engineers.
But you are on a forum called Gearslutz... so its normal that people like to share some knowledge and personal opinion and experiences with this and that PA system.

Cheers!
Old 16th May 2013
  #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Miramar_sessions View Post
Hey Mickey, i understand and agree with your post about the happy days for engineers.
But you are on a forum called Gearslutz... so its normal that people like to share some knowledge and personal opinion and experiences with this and that PA system.

Cheers!
OK.....my opinion:

I don't care which system is up there......as long as it's a system and not just a bunch of boxes. The important thing is that there is enough rig for the gig, that the coverage is proper and that it's tuned and aimed properly.

Deployment>brand/model.
Old 16th May 2013
  #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Miramar_sessions View Post
Hi Roland...

thanks for your comment, but that was said already.

I think you still havent understood the meaning of my post...

I didnt ask what are the important things to do a great sound on a venue... Of course i know all that chain...

I bet you agree that a Porche is a great car... and of course you know that if the road its completely ****ed of, if the guy who fix the car sucks and the car its not well maintenanced, and if you dont know how to drive one.... you will have troubles with that car... And that will be the same if you buy a ferrari instead.... but that its not an excuse for you not to have a preference about which one you prefer the most, and why.... The Porche its not a Ferrari.... Both are great cars, but diferent... As all the major PA systems... I know that you can do or not a great job with almost everyone of it... But if you have to choose, its great if you know which one is the best for your needs and why...
The problem is that a good system tech can make far more difference to the system than the different system. As pointed out above, venues make a whole lot of difference.

I know that some engineers will say that they have a prefference for one system over another, however, this is most likely down to them having used that system particularly well teched out on a night where everything "worked" for them.

The problem with your Porsche analogy is that top PA systems are not like the porsche you buy from the garage, more like the ones that race teams run, in that the configuration makes each a daily custom job for that venue (I'm talking in touring terms).
Old 16th May 2013
  #15
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I really really HATE the way D&B compresses the sound.
actually put NO D&B on my riders..

Big fan of V-dosc/K1, Martin Audio MLA (and compact), and probably quite unknow still, but what REALLY blew me away was Coda Audio LA12 and ViRay.

don't mind some Milo/Mica either, but the throw of those systems suck.. sound a bit "pillow" for my taste..

Vertec is better since V5, but before that, sounded to harsh for my taste.. to "american" as we tend to say in Europe..
VTX was good, but non the less a bit disappointing.. i expected a lot more.

anyways, if i'm to chose my own system for a tour, it 'd be either MLA or the the Coda Audio system.
Old 16th May 2013
  #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Miramar_sessions View Post
ok... but even knowing that all of the top systems are good enough, there are diferences... What i would like to know is what your preferences... or you dont look at techical riders to aprove or to ask for a system? (its what i would like to know... whats on the top of your list on your main gig technical rider)
Yes, there are differences between products and people tend to have personal preferences, however assigning the differences purely to the products seems to totally discount the impact of proper system application, the system tuning, the mix, the environment and so on, perhaps even the quality of the performers. You can't really ignore those factors as they do often affect people's experiences and the resulting preferences.
Old 16th May 2013
  #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by museAV View Post
Yes, there are differences between products and people tend to have personal preferences, however assigning the differences purely to the products seems to totally discount the impact of proper system application, the system tuning, the mix, the environment and so on, perhaps even the quality of the performers. You can't really ignore those factors as they do often affect people's experiences and the resulting preferences.
Yes and no..

Any D&B system, no matter how well engineered will have those crappy underpowered D12 amps, which they try to compensate in multibandcompression in presets..

No system-engineering can fix that..

Every system has it's own voicing, it's own strenghts and weakness.

L'acoustics is very ballsy in the 200hz area, best lowmid there is, but lacks the Coda and Martin definition in de +16khz range, making is feel "pushy" instead of open..

Those are things that No systemengineer in the world can affect, unless you start meddling in speakerprocessing..


REALLY comparing systems, is putting them in a venue, having the best systemtech (every brand has it's specialists) tune the system, and A-B-...test them with the same multitrack..

How many here have actually done that?

I have !
Old 16th May 2013
  #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mesadude View Post
Yes and no..

Any D&B system, no matter how well engineered will have those crappy underpowered D12 amps, which they try to compensate in multibandcompression in presets..

No system-engineering can fix that..

Every system has it's own voicing, it's own strenghts and weakness.

L'acoustics is very ballsy in the 200hz area, best lowmid there is, but lacks the Coda and Martin definition in de +16khz range, making is feel "pushy" instead of open..

Those are things that No systemengineer in the world can affect, unless you start meddling in speakerprocessing..


REALLY comparing systems, is putting them in a venue, having the best systemtech (every brand has it's specialists) tune the system, and A-B-...test them with the same multitrack..

How many here have actually done that?

I have !
Thanks Mesadude,

thats exactly the kind of answer i was expecting with my post.

Although i've worked several times with D&B, it was always in closed venues without the need of to much SPL... so i didnt notice that ....

cheers,

João
Old 16th May 2013
  #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Miramar_sessions View Post
Thanks Mesadude,

thats exactly the kind of answer i was expecting with my post.

Although i've worked several times with D&B, it was always in closed venues without the need of to much SPL... so i didnt notice that ....

cheers,

João
The problem is that it isn't only on high SPL.
It's always.

Just try this: set your mix as you want it, then change your mastervolume 2-3db any direction..
Your entire balance between hi-mid-low-sub is now f*cked up..
D&B is a great system for bad soundguys.. the compression will always make it sound OK.. but once you want more, the system really holds you back..
It's worse in Q- and V-series.. J-series doesn't need as much compression since it's tri-amped.. leaves more headroom in the amps..
Old 16th May 2013
  #20
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@mesadude
did you hear the leo system ?
The trow on that is a lot better . There's been a demo in germany by the pool group who ordered a double system .

As the system was tuned semi flat with louder music (house and metal) it got a bit to much for me at foh (50to 60mt) so i walked to about a 150mt away from a hang of 12 leo's + 3 mica's and at that point i could handle it again .

Also a very well ofax response compared to onax
Old 17th May 2013
  #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mesadude View Post
D&B is a great system for bad soundguys.
Ah well, another thread bites the dust due to needlessly dogmatic posting.
Sadly, kinda the norm here.


Cheers

Mickey
Old 17th May 2013
  #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mesadude View Post
I really really HATE the way D&B compresses the sound.
actually put NO D&B on my riders..

Big fan of V-dosc/K1, Martin Audio MLA (and compact), and probably quite unknow still, but what REALLY blew me away was Coda Audio LA12 and ViRay.

don't mind some Milo/Mica either, but the throw of those systems suck.. sound a bit "pillow" for my taste..

Vertec is better since V5, but before that, sounded to harsh for my taste.. to "american" as we tend to say in Europe..
VTX was good, but non the less a bit disappointing.. i expected a lot more.

anyways, if i'm to chose my own system for a tour, it 'd be either MLA or the the Coda Audio system.
You have to be trolling knowing that most engineers in the field rate the d&b stuff as one of the best or the best large and medium format pa manufacturers.
Old 17th May 2013
  #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frost View Post
You have to be trolling knowing that most engineers in the field rate the d&b stuff as one of the best or the best large and medium format pa manufacturers.
I don't think that he's trolling.

D&B is good stuff, however, the Q series, can crowd in the mid if it's driven, with lighter stuff like Jazz its fine, even when it does crowd it doesn't sound bad, just lacks "bite". I suspect the main problem is that with Q1, people generally don't bring enough rig for the gig. Can't comment on the V series as I've not used it, J series, is seriously powerful stuff and has a lot of fans.

What I will say is that Mesadude's post proves a little the point, ask 20 engineers what's the best system out there and you will get 20 different responses. It really is down to how the systems are deployed, at least with the top end brands. Personally I'm happy to mix on almost all the systems mentioned above, given decent sounding venue, well teched system, good band, etc, etc......

The original posters question, suggests that he thinks there is some, best brand, i.e. "Porsche" of the audio world, however it doesn't work like that because of the variables mentioned by me and others in the thread. I've heard great sounding shows mixed on almost all of the above. YMMV heh
Old 17th May 2013
  #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frost View Post
You have to be trolling knowing that most engineers in the field rate the d&b stuff as one of the best or the best large and medium format pa manufacturers.
Not sharing the popular opinion doesn't make him a troll. It's neither 'dogmatic' or 'trolling' to express a different opinion...and in fact these are the catch words that usually put the thread on the downward slope.

I believe some of his opinions about d&b systems are spot on...yes, they make some really good systems, (the 'J' system comes to mind) but the 'Q' range will run out of breath if pushed. To make matters worse many PA companies under spec these systems or they inappropriately use them in place of bigger systems on some gigs.
Old 17th May 2013
  #25
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Re: Large format PA Systems - preferences

Don't get me wrong,
I will choose D&B over most other B-brands,
But out of the A-brands it is my least favourite.

And underspeccing indeed is a big problem with d&b, but even when not underspecced, the variable compression is a real turn off for me.. even though i understand why a lot of engineers like it.. mostly the less-skilled-ones..
Old 17th May 2013
  #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ssaudio View Post
Ah well, another thread bites the dust due to needlessly dogmatic posting.
Sadly, kinda the norm here.


Cheers

Mickey
Just posting my experience.. i think i explained elaborately WHY i stated this..
I'm sorry if my post was too long for you to stay focussed on reading ALL of it..
Old 17th May 2013
  #27
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Opinions, unfortunately, cannot be measured scientifically.........

And that's my opinion/
Old 17th May 2013
  #28
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For a local private club venue, as a member I recently put together a PA system with all PreSonus StudioLive equipment and find its technology state of the art and does very well:

Mixer 16.02.
Powered Speakers 315Ai
Powered Subwoofer 18SAi

PreSonus's Portugese distributor seems to be Audiolog in Lisbon ( Audiolog ). You may want to speak with them. BTW, I have no financial stakes to gain in stating this.
Old 17th May 2013
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Wells View Post
For a local private club venue, as a member I recently put together a PA system with all PreSonus StudioLive equipment and find its technology state of the art and does very well:

Mixer 16.02.
Powered Speakers 315Ai
Powered Subwoofer 18SAi

PreSonus's Portugese distributor seems to be Audiolog in Lisbon ( Audiolog ). You may want to speak with them. BTW, I have no financial stakes to gain in stating this.
and HOW exactly is this even remotely related to this thread?
Old 17th May 2013
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mesadude View Post
and HOW exactly is this even remotely related to this thread?
I think it's code.....
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