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Midas/Behringer X32
Old 25th February 2013 | Show parent
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2manyrocks View Post
Companies have to make a judgment call about what to warrant and for how long. You'd expect a refrigerator to last more than a year....but at some point, the manufacturer's warranty drops off.

I'm guessing someone decided that stuff like faders gets broken in use too much to warrant this kind of stuff beyond one year. My guess is that may be where the highest degree of risk of breakage and the most number of claims would be expected if the warranty goes too long. So instead of taking this risk, they just limited the warranty to a year.

It would be more clear to the customer if they said 1 year full warranty with additional 2 year limited warranty on internal components, but that takes the marketing zing out of saying 3 year warranty, IMO.
I agree, it is not the warranty itself but the apparent misrepresentation in the marketing of it, and the fact that it continues after being called out, that is at issue. That the warranty is widely misunderstood was supported in a discussion about the motorized faders where several people noted their having a three year warranty when the reality is that the faders are specifically excluded from the extended warranty and limited to one year coverage. What also stood out was that while Behringer reps seem happy to jump into discussions to promote the three year warranty, no one from Behringer jumped into that discussion, or any other I have seen, to correct or clarify any misunderstandings of the warranty.

Yes, it takes the marketing 'zing' out to present the warranty accurately but if Behringer wants to be accepted in the pro audio world then that is the kind of change they have to make.
Old 25th February 2013 | Show parent
  #32
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JohnRoberts's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by museAV View Post
I agree, it is not the warranty itself but the apparent misrepresentation in the marketing of it, and the fact that it continues after being called out, that is at issue. That the warranty is widely misunderstood was supported in a discussion about the motorized faders where several people noted their having a three year warranty when the reality is that the faders are specifically excluded from the extended warranty and limited to one year coverage. What also stood out was that while Behringer reps seem happy to jump into discussions to promote the three year warranty, no one from Behringer jumped into that discussion, or any other I have seen, to correct or clarify any misunderstandings of the warranty.

Yes, it takes the marketing 'zing' out to present the warranty accurately but if Behringer wants to be accepted in the pro audio world then that is the kind of change they have to make.
It will be interesting to wait and see how the motorized faders hold up. Since these were manufactured by Behringer themselves, it was a major cost savings for them, and an unknown for long term reliability. No matter how much testing you do, you never know until you ship and the fader jockeys get their hands on them.

Imagine the company-killing time bomb these "could" be, if they start falling apart under warranty in large numbers (even at one-year there are tens of thousands mixers sold, so hundreds of thousands motor-faders out there). I expect Behringer is watching this even closer than the customers. It is not unusual to exclude some parts from long term warranty that can get higher wear and tear (like tires on a car)

If these faders turn out to be robust and not problematic, I wouldn't be surprised to see the warranty normalized. If they do fail, hopefully they will not be too hard and expensive to replace.

At this point we are crying over spilled milk that hasn't spilled yet... so patience, but consider even under the best conditions motorized faders could be the weakest link and require repairs to keep any mixer operational over multiple years of service life.

JR

PS: FWIW motorized faders break in expensive consoles too.
Old 25th February 2013 | Show parent
  #33
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Andy Hamm's Avatar
 

The fader bands have been popped off on two of the x32's I've used so far, and they have only been in service for a month or so. Compare that to the other consoles in that particular shop that have been in service for a 1-3 years with no fader issues, and I'd say that it is not the operator's fault, the x32 faders are just too fragile.

Another issue is that the console doesn't work well outdoors in the winter, At around -3 degrees the digital pots stop working so you have to rotate them like 30 times to shave off 2dB. Again, not an issues with the other consoles in the same conditions.
Old 25th February 2013
  #34
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Cover'd's Avatar
Again, I thank Joe for chipping in - even if his words haven't been met with completely open arms...


Having also read Uli's initial mission statement about making gear affordable to the masses, for me, I still feel it's the case that with a patchy reliability history and a slightly erroneous warranty set up, I simply cannot afford to choose Behringer...

That's hugely ironic I know, but I guess that I don't fall into in Behringer's target audience really (even though we only use an old school Makcie 1642VLZ) so they'll not lose any sleep I'm sure!
Old 25th February 2013
  #35
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy Hamm View Post
The fader bands have been popped off on two of the x32's I've used so far, and they have only been in service for a month or so. Compare that to the other consoles in that particular shop that have been in service for a 1-3 years with no fader issues, and I'd say that it is not the operator's fault, the x32 faders are just too fragile.

Another issue is that the console doesn't work well outdoors in the winter, At around -3 degrees the digital pots stop working so you have to rotate them like 30 times to shave off 2dB. Again, not an issues with the other consoles in the same conditions.
Andy, I am curious to know if the fader bands popped off during casual mixing or right after a quick layer change. As I got "faster than the machine" on a 5D or M7, you would find that even though the faders would recall and set to their respected position instantly, if you tried to move a fader in less than half a second, it would politely let you know thru gentle resistance that it's not ready for you yet. On the good side, I've never had a failure of the fader though on either of those consoles. It just let's you know it doesn't like it....I hope that was -3 Degrees Celsius and not Fahrenheit!! Unless you were on a ski slope doing The X Games, those are inhumane conditions for man, not to mention the poor gear!! LOL. Digital Encoders not changing as you are used to, and expect them to behave, concerns me
Old 26th February 2013 | Show parent
  #36
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Andy Hamm's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Angel Audio View Post
Andy, I am curious to know if the fader bands popped off during casual mixing or right after a quick layer change. As I got "faster than the machine" on a 5D or M7, you would find that even though the faders would recall and set to their respected position instantly, if you tried to move a fader in less than half a second, it would politely let you know thru gentle resistance that it's not ready for you yet. On the good side, I've never had a failure of the fader though on either of those consoles. It just let's you know it doesn't like it....I hope that was -3 Degrees Celsius and not Fahrenheit!! Unless you were on a ski slope doing The X Games, those are inhumane conditions for man, not to mention the poor gear!! LOL. Digital Encoders not changing as you are used to, and expect them to behave, concerns me
I wasn't actually present when the fader bands poped off, in both cases I was mixing the show after this had happened. I was told what happened by the system tech and it sounds to me like that gentle remider of the motor telling you "I'm moving on my own' is "Don't touch me or my bands will pop off" for the x32. I was in the shop that owned the consoles last week and one of their x32's was boxed back up with an RA# on it, so the issue may in fact be worse than just the band popping off. (allthough it may also mean that Behringer has a solution to the problem and is resolving it).

And yes -3 celsius, You guys fell off the whole go metric boat in '73
Old 26th February 2013
  #37
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Sino's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Guitfiddle View Post
I saw and heard this console tonight and was impressed. Anybody using this? Would like to know what you think. Didn't have a chance to actually hear the effects, EQ, or compression. Just ran some pre-recorded stuff through with qsc arrays. I have a feeling that this might be just above the sound quality of the Presonus Studio live series boards, and I really like the feel and functionality...almost sold!

Sent from my DROID RAZR
Giving my feedback..

Desk is well and solid built, all the main features can be easily accessed from the desk and the three-pages, four encoder/eight button is a great plus, allowing you (for example) to keep all dynamics control on the board.

Dynamics are pretty standard, EQ is great offering LO CUT + 6 bands!!
Also the FX section is fine, offering 8 slots that can be used mono or stereo, as an aux (for example reverb or delay) or insert (for example GEQ) and all parameters can be assigned to the encoder... G/Monitor EQ is avaible on the DCA faders.

Standing on my test, there's a little bit of HUM on the inputs of the mixer. Listening to a classical record and comparing with another desk (like PM5D) the noise is clearly audible.

They made a little mess with the routing.. it's OK, but could be easier and more flexible with a simple A/B matrix instead of this configuration (you can route only groups of 8 channels).

Also linking features are a bit limited (you can only link adiacent channel with ODD-EVEN system), but DCA do their job.

Snake boards are also well built and quite easy to use..
Old 28th February 2013 | Show parent
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Red_Shift View Post
Hey Joe,

Ill take your silence as confirmation that your policy hasn't changed.

Thanks for confirming,

Austin
Dear Austin,

Please allow me to respond on Joe's behalf. As the VP, Care for MUSIC Group and its related brands, my team owns service delivery which includes the warranty statements.

What you will find is that most companies only offer a one year warranty. For those that do offer extended warranties, or even claim to offer full warranties, if a component fails such as the faders, encoders, lcd screens, etc, they will generally hide behind the 'normal wear and tear' statement and not cover the failure under warranty the extension. I do not agree with this approach as I believe it is mis-leading. This is the reason why the warranty terms posted on MUSIC Group: About Us are written as they are. We want to make sure that it is very clear to the customer what we cover and what we don’t so there is no surprise down the road.

If you would like to discuss this in more detail, please send me a PM with your contact information, and I will reach out to you to answer any question you have.

Pat Ferdig
VP, Care
MUSIC Group
Old 1st March 2013
  #39
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I just noticed on the X32 compact and producer models that of the 16 faders, 8 are permanently devoted outputs (DCA's, buses, & matrixes only) so they only have 8 actual channel strips. That is extremely stupid. It was bad enough on the full X32 to have 1/3 of the strips devoted to outputs, but half of only 16? Who the hell thought that was a good idea?

I was very eager to get my hands on an X32 producer, not even remotely interested now. I'll consider remote options for an X32 core or rack.
Old 3rd March 2013 | Show parent
  #40
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440HzMusic's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by AC2SPL View Post
I just noticed on the X32 compact and producer models that of the 16 faders, 8 are permanently devoted outputs (DCA's, buses, & matrixes only) so they only have 8 actual channel strips. That is extremely stupid. It was bad enough on the full X32 to have 1/3 of the strips devoted to outputs, but half of only 16? Who the hell thought that was a good idea?

I was very eager to get my hands on an X32 producer, not even remotely interested now. I'll consider remote options for an X32 core or rack.
It's not an uncommon phenomenon nowadays. The Midas Pro 1 for example. That does have a rather clever VCA/POP group system though, which I much prefer to layers.
Old 3rd March 2013 | Show parent
  #41
Thanks guys. I have decided to stick with my Presonus Studiolive.
Old 3rd March 2013 | Show parent
  #42
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Cover'd's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Guitfiddle View Post
Thanks guys. I have decided to stick with my Presonus Studiolive.
Yep, as much as I'd like to give the X32 a go - and am generally very progressive when it comes to embracing new technology - we'll be sticking with an 'old' analogue Mackie 1642
Old 3rd March 2013 | Show parent
  #43
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I have a SL24 that replaced an A&H 2800 series analog live desk two years ago. I never have used the SL in the studio for capture and the A&H only for cueing while tracking with an Alesis HD24R before I went ITB two years ago. The truth be told the XMAS pres in the SL24 are on par with the pres in my RME UFX and the UA 4-710d and unlike most other digital consoles the SL24 has DB25 direct taps of the pres that avoids all of the digital bs and room treatment that is very important to do while capturing a critical live recording. All of the chat about motorized faders for live sound re-enforcement is a crock of bs. I have a Studio One pro DAW that replaced Logic in my studio and use the motorized fader on the fader port along with all of the other automation when doing post production editing all the time. But I can honestly say I have never needed motorized faders in more than 40 years of live SR work. Bottom line for me is the dependability of any equipment for the task at hand. I am more than certain that marketing has more to do with the 20,000 sales of buminger & the new midas than pro interest. The XMAS pres and ADL600 speaks volumes about the PreSonus brand--check them out.
Old 4th March 2013 | Show parent
  #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by patferdig View Post
What you will find is that most companies only offer a one year warranty. For those that do offer extended warranties, or even claim to offer full warranties, if a component fails such as the faders, encoders, lcd screens, etc, they will generally hide behind the 'normal wear and tear' statement and not cover the failure under warranty the extension. I do not agree with this approach as I believe it is mis-leading. This is the reason why the warranty terms posted on MUSIC Group: About Us are written as they are. We want to make sure that it is very clear to the customer what we cover and what we don’t so there is no surprise down the road.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Sanborn View Post
3-Year Warranty Program
When you purchase and register your X32 (or any other BEHRINGER product) you participate in a full 3-Year Warranty Program and we will stand behind you and your X32. Not only are we here to support you in the event of an issue, but as you can see our Care and Product Specialist teams have been proactively engaging users on forums, Facebook, Twitter and everywhere else that you communicate to make your experience truly exceptional.
Pat, the issue is not how the warranty actually compares but rather how it is being presented. Do you see the difference in the two references above? Whether legally and/or simply in perception is there not a difference between a "full 3-Year Warranty Program" as has been stated in numerous forum posts here and elsewhere and the "Limited Warranty" defined at MUSIC Group: Limited Warranty and BEHRINGER: Limited Warranty? I agree that warranties are often misrepresented but unless you will actually honor a "full" three year warranty then Behringer seems to be perpetuating rather than eliminating that problem.
Old 5th March 2013 | Show parent
  #45
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In the United States, there are legal and practical differences between "Full" and "Limited" Warranties. See for example: Businessperson's Guide to Federal Warranty Law | BCP Business Center

The warranty that appears on the Behringer website is captioned as a Limited Warranty--not a "Full Warranty."

Old 6th March 2013 | Show parent
  #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 440HzMusic View Post
It's not an uncommon phenomenon nowadays. The Midas Pro 1 for example. That does have a rather clever VCA/POP group system though, which I much prefer to layers.
Yeah the DCA's come in plenty handy, but there is absolutely no reason to make input channels unavailable to faders. I should be able to assign an input, output, bus, aux send, aux return, DCA, or matrix to any fader I damn well please. There is no practical reason to force our configuration in any way. It could probably be fixed with a software update but the buttons will be mislabeled. That would be fine by me, assuming it could be reset to default configuration for someone else to use.

However, I was pleasantly surprised that the XControl software is written for Linux, so I'm confident a Linux tablet would serve well as a controller for the X32 Rack. I'm researching which tablet to get to dual-boot Ubuntu and Win7 already.
Old 6th March 2013
  #47
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by AC2SPL View Post
Yeah the DCA's come in plenty handy, but there is absolutely no reason to make input channels unavailable to faders. I should be able to assign an input, output, bus, aux send, aux return, DCA, or matrix to any fader I damn well please. There is no practical reason to force our configuration in any way. It could probably be fixed with a software update but the buttons will be mislabeled. That would be fine by me, assuming it could be reset to default configuration for someone else to use.

However, I was pleasantly surprised that the XControl software is written for Linux, so I'm confident a Linux tablet would serve well as a controller for the X32 Rack. I'm researching which tablet to get to dual-boot Ubuntu and Win7 already.
I agree that it would be nice to use the DCA fader banks for extra input page. The mislabeled scribble strips would not necessarily be true, as that bank also serves as your mix buss 1-8 and mix buss 9-16 and, the script changes. Also, you can type what you want in.. It even serves as 8 sliders of your GEQ, and that reminds me, I haven't paid attention to whether the script changes in Graphic mode, I'll have to take a look next time. In theory, the banks could become extra inputs, with a firmware update, but I really don't know how they designed the banks in engineering and manufacturing. Anything is possible, a 5d for example allows you to make the VCA banks do inputs 25-32, 33-40, and 41-48 as well as the 24 mixes and 8 random sliders of GEQ. The question of the day is "How much milk are they willing to give us from the cow?"
Old 7th March 2013 | Show parent
  #48
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BradLyons's Avatar
 

Currently at my church in (3) rooms I have the following boards: YAMAHA LS9-32, YAMAHA 01V, and SOUNDCRAFT GB4. I'm getting ready to replace the 01V with a Presonus Studiolive16, I am buying (this week) a Behringer X32 to replace the Soundcraft, and later this year I am going to replace the LS9-32 with a Venue Profile console. My needs are diverse and certainly not a novice at this. For every use, every need, every situation----even for the same person, the solution can be quite diverse.
Old 7th March 2013 | Show parent
  #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BradLyons View Post
My needs are diverse and certainly not a novice at this. For every use, every need, every situation----even for the same person, the solution can be quite diverse.
Cannot agree more, every situation can be different and critical bits of information related to that are not always readily apparent.
Old 8th March 2013 | Show parent
  #50
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy Hamm View Post
I've already run into an issue with the x32. If someone impedes a fader flip, either unintentionally or by fighting the motorized movement, the bands pop off.
I dont have an X32 so this is more like a question: can't you still use the fader manually when the band falls off, I would assume all that you loose would be the motorized movement of the fader, right?
Old 10th March 2013 | Show parent
  #51
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Andy Hamm's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by sania44 View Post
I dont have an X32 so this is more like a question: can't you still use the fader manually when the band falls off, I would assume all that you loose would be the motorized movement of the fader, right?
Well, I guess you could use 1 channel but not the second one on the flip as they would both have to have the same fader level. In a pinch, you could get around it by assigning one of the channels to its own DCA.
Old 10th March 2013 | Show parent
  #52
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy Hamm View Post
Well, I guess you could use 1 channel but not the second one on the flip as they would both have to have the same fader level. In a pinch, you could get around it by assigning one of the channels to its own DCA.
If you are friendly with electronics is it possible to fix the fader yourself when the band falls off, or do you have to send the board in for service?
Old 11th March 2013 | Show parent
  #53
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Andy Hamm's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by sania44 View Post
If you are friendly with electronics is it possible to fix the fader yourself when the band falls off, or do you have to send the board in for service?
It's not even an electronics issue, it's mechanical. Open the thing up and slip it back on and you're back in business. I haven't tried it on this console myself, but I'm told that they aren't easily accessable.

Maybe they'll fix this issue, opening the console yourself will likely void your warranty.
Old 11th March 2013
  #54
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uOpt's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by AC2SPL View Post
I just noticed on the X32 compact and producer models that of the 16 faders, 8 are permanently devoted outputs (DCA's, buses, & matrixes only) so they only have 8 actual channel strips. That is extremely stupid. It was bad enough on the full X32 to have 1/3 of the strips devoted to outputs, but half of only 16? Who the hell thought that was a good idea?

I was very eager to get my hands on an X32 producer, not even remotely interested now. I'll consider remote options for an X32 core or rack.
I have to say that Behringer's creative counting of input channels raised a recent WFT from me, too.

It's a really bad idea to do that if your brand name has been associated with bad quality in the past and you try to recover from it.

Last edited by uOpt; 12th March 2013 at 09:28 PM.. Reason: included specific quote
Old 11th March 2013 | Show parent
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by uOpt View Post
I have to say that Behringer's creative counting of input channels raised a recent WFT from me, too.

It's a really bad idea to do that if your brand name has been associated with bad quality in the past and you try to recover from it.
Are you talking about the 40 audio inputs being 32 mic line on XLR, 6 line level on 1/4" and 2 line level on RCA? Or about having 48 channels, which is channels and for many digital consoles doesn't necessarily match the physical inputs?

On some of the other comments, a Midas Pro 1 or Yamaha PM5D are 3 to 10 times the cost of the X32 and some compromises had to be made to derive that cost reduction. If specific differences matter that much and you are willing to pay the extra for them then the X32 is probably not the product for you.

My concern on a fader band falling off is that it probably fell off for some reason and just putting it back on may not fix the underlying problem thus it might be likely to happen again and at a very inopportune moment.
Old 11th March 2013 | Show parent
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy Hamm View Post
I wasn't actually present when the fader bands poped off, in both cases I was mixing the show after this had happened. I was told what happened by the system tech and it sounds to me like that gentle remider of the motor telling you "I'm moving on my own' is "Don't touch me or my bands will pop off" for the x32. I was in the shop that owned the consoles last week and one of their x32's was boxed back up with an RA# on it, so the issue may in fact be worse than just the band popping off. (allthough it may also mean that Behringer has a solution to the problem and is resolving it).

)
Probably worth digging into this more because it could be rather frustrating waiting on a warranty repair instead of opening it up and fixing it and maybe losing the warranty in the process. If there's something B is doing on later models, that would also be worth knowing.
Old 12th March 2013 | Show parent
  #57
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uOpt's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by museAV View Post
Are you talking about the 40 audio inputs being 32 mic line on XLR, 6 line level on 1/4" and 2 line level on RCA? Or about having 48 channels, which is channels and for many digital consoles doesn't necessarily match the physical inputs?

On some of the other comments, a Midas Pro 1 or Yamaha PM5D are 3 to 10 times the cost of the X32 and some compromises had to be made to derive that cost reduction. If specific differences matter that much and you are willing to pay the extra for them then the X32 is probably not the product for you.
I had the XENYX X1204USB "12-Channel Mixer" in mind.

I'm well able to read the price, which is about half of the usual $300 for the features provided.

I don't need the creative labeling of this as a 12-channel mixer when clearly by any other vendor's counting it is a 10-channel mixer.
Old 12th March 2013 | Show parent
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by uOpt View Post
I had the XENYX X1204USB "12-Channel Mixer" in mind.

I'm well able to read the price, which is about half of the usual $300 for the features provided.

I don't need the creative labeling of this as a 12-channel mixer when clearly by any other vendor's counting it is a 10-channel mixer.
This discussion is about the X32, you might want to start a new discussion if you are going to address a different product. The 2 TRK/USB on the XENYX X1204USB can be misleading but creative counting and labeling of I/O is common in that market and has been that way for many years.
Old 12th March 2013 | Show parent
  #59
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uOpt's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by museAV View Post
This discussion is about the X32, you might want to start a new discussion if you are going to address a different product. The 2 TRK/USB on the XENYX X1204USB can be misleading but creative counting and labeling of I/O is common in that market and has been that way for many years.
I was specifically replying to this post, which is about the same issue, just in the X32.
https://www.gearslutz.com/board/8798714-post39.html
Old 13th March 2013 | Show parent
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by uOpt View Post
I was specifically replying to this post, which is about the same issue, just in the X32.
https://www.gearslutz.com/board/8798714-post39.html
The post you reference is addressing how the faders are allocated on the X32 Compact and X32 Producer, a completely different issue than any "creative" or misleading counting or labeling of inputs.
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