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Live Rock + Compression, Feedback, Vocal Harmonies: I need your wisdom!!! Noise Reduction & Restoration Plugins
Old 8th June 2006
  #1
Here for the gear
 

Question Live Rock + Compression, Feedback, Vocal Harmonies: I need your wisdom!!!

I'm in a loud, aggressive rock band. I have a very dynamic voice (meaning that I have a wide range of volume -- and this isn't due to poor technique, it's just my voice). Currently, our band is playing live, and when my voice is quiet in some songs, people can't hear me. I'm already pestering the guitarist about his volume levels, but he is telling me that it's my equipment, and that it's unrealistic for him to alter his volume levels radically whenever I'm singing quietly.

I'm currently using a TC Helicon VoiceLive, which has built in digital effects for vocals, including reverb, pitch correction, harmonies, compression, and EQing.

The TC Helicon really gives a kick to the vocals. The reverb is nice, the pitch correction helps my voice out when I'm off, and I use the harmonies in certain songs to create strange moods.

The only problem is that it occasionally created horrible feedback. I found that the feedback was much worse when I used the built in compressor.

*I'M MOST WORRIED ABOUT GETTING FEEDBACK AT GIGS.* I purchased the DBX AFS224 Advanced Feedback Suppresion, as an emergency feedback killer.

Recently, I've been playing gigs, and the VoiceLive works great, and I'm not getting feedback, but the vocals are too quiet.

I think I should get a compressor to try to level out the volume levels. But I'm worried that this could cause horrible feedback, since using the built in VoiceLive compressor caused horrible feedback.

Do you have any recommendations for a compressor? Are there compressors that are less likely to cause feedback? Where in the chain would I want to put the compressor? Do you have any other advice for my situation? I'm looking to spend under 500....

Thank you for your help!

Also, I was thinking about getting either the DBX ProVocal Microphone Preamp Digital Vocal Strip with Digital Output or the dbx 166XL Dual Compressor Limiter...
Old 8th June 2006
  #2
One with big hooves
 
Jay Kahrs's Avatar
Most times that the vocal mic is feeding back it's because either;

A) The mic is a piece of poo with a horrible polar pattern

B) The monitors are just too loud and/or haven't been rung

C) Pilot error with gain staging or something closely related

I'd recommend ditching your vocal FX box for the time being & getting the basic mic > PA sound together first. Once you can get that loud enough then, and ONLY then should you insert the FX boxes.

It's entirely probable that something in your TC box is creating the feedbacky havoc. Adding a compressor to the mix is only going to make it worse.

You should get on your guitar player and the rest of the band about getting quieter when you get quieter too! Without soft, there is no loud...that leaves two volumes...off, and full blast.

Dynamics are a good thing!
Old 8th June 2006
  #3
Here for the gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay Kahrs
Most times that the vocal mic is feeding back it's because either;

A) The mic is a piece of poo with a horrible polar pattern

B) The monitors are just too loud and/or haven't been rung

C) Pilot error with gain staging or something closely related
A) It's a good mic with a really tight polar pattern.

B) I don't know how to ring out our monitors at our practice space. At the venues we play at, I don't know if they have rung out the system. We aren't talking big venues. We are just starting out.

C) I don't know what that means.


About ditching the box: The vocal harmonies are really important to the sound. The pitch correction really helps. It really is important to keep it. I think I'd rather have ****ed up volume levels than ditch the box. The problem is probably solved if I ditch the box, but I'd like to try to find another way around the problem...
Old 8th June 2006
  #4
Gear Head
 

yeah the feedback is going to come when you use a compressor, because of the gain make up satge - basically when yo'ure not singing, or singing loud, the compressor isn't turning anything down, but the make up gain is still turning it up. easiest thing to do is to put the compressor on you FOH and not your foldback. what mic are you using? if you're using a hypercardioid, put your monitors on a 45 degree angle from the back plane of the mic (not directly behind) cos they pick up from the back - if you're using a cardioid, put the monitors directly behind the mic. thats what i'd try first anyway.
Old 8th June 2006
  #5
Here for the gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by danna
yeah the feedback is going to come when you use a compressor, because of the gain make up satge - basically when yo'ure not singing, or singing loud, the compressor isn't turning anything down, but the make up gain is still turning it up. easiest thing to do is to put the compressor on you FOH and not your foldback. what mic are you using? if you're using a hypercardioid, put your monitors on a 45 degree angle from the back plane of the mic (not directly behind) cos they pick up from the back - if you're using a cardioid, put the monitors directly behind the mic. thats what i'd try first anyway.
i use a super-cartiod, so it picks up a bit in front, but not much. I don't stand directly in front of the monitor. This mic actually gives me much less feedback than my old Shure SM58.

What do you mean by FOH and foldback? I'm still learning...
Old 8th June 2006
  #6
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
What do you mean by FOH and foldback?
FOH = F.ront O.f H.ouse...i.e., MAINS...what is being pushed through the PA speakers intended for the audience to hear.

FOLDBACK = monitors...your vocal signal is being "folded back" to you via the monitor speaker in front of you.

If you insist on hearing that compression on your vocals THROUGH the monitors...then your going to have to settle with less volume through your monitors...or find a more ideal position between your mic and the monitor...i.e. 45 it instead of directly facing you..maybe have it off to the side of your head a little bit.

Want to solve the problem entirely? Have your cake & eat it too? 3 words 4 ya...

... IN EAR MONITORS
Old 8th June 2006
  #7
Here for the gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by transfiguration
FOH = F.ront O.f H.ouse...i.e., MAINS...what is being pushed through the PA speakers intended for the audience to hear.

FOLDBACK = monitors...your vocal signal is being "folded back" to you via the monitor speaker in front of you.

If you insist on hearing that compression on your vocals THROUGH the monitors...then your going to have to settle with less volume through your monitors...or find a more ideal position between your mic and the monitor...i.e. 45 it instead of directly facing you..maybe have it off to the side of your head a little bit.

Want to solve the problem entirely? Have your cake & eat it too? 3 words 4 ya...

... IN EAR MONITORS
Would that really solve the problem? Because I would be willing to maybe buy in-ear monitors and then have my setup configured so I already had it going from my VoiceLive right to my ear.

But also, our band is just starting to gig. We aren't playing state of the art venues. Sometimes, it's a place where punk bands tend to play, and there's just a mixing board. You just plug in. I don't even know if I could ask them to lower the monitors. Would my band mates be able to hear me?

If this would actually solve the problem, I might be willing to pay for it. How much would it be? Is this realistic? I'm just so ****ing tired of feedback. Frankly, I want to be able to process the **** out of my vocals and not have to worry.

Also, if I were going to get this, could I get a system that would deal with wireless in-ear-monitors AND a wireless microphone?
Old 8th June 2006
  #8
One with big hooves
 
Jay Kahrs's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by deafboy
A) It's a good mic with a really tight polar pattern.

B) I don't know how to ring out our monitors at our practice space. At the venues we play at, I don't know if they have rung out the system. We aren't talking big venues. We are just starting out.

C) I don't know what that means.
"Ringing" the monitors is pretty simple in theory & I'm gonna give you the quick & dirty version of it...

Flatten out the graphic EQ (31 band is better then a 15 but either works) on the wedges...start with the highest & lowest bands at full cut and depending on the "tone" of the wedge...maybe some dips around the 150-400Hz region if it sounds muddy or boxy but try to avoid those at first.

Put the mic on a stand near the monitor...about where you'd be while talking to audience or during the show.

SLOWLY bring the mics channel up to "show" volume and then beyond...when it starts to "ring" and feedback...find that frequency on the graphic EQ and pull it down at least 3dB or however much you need to kill the feedback. Going 10dB down isn't that uncommon as you dig in & get the mic to the point where it can rip your head off!

Rinse & repeat as needed...generally you'll end up cutting at least 3-4 bands...depending on the mic & the wedge the usual suspects are 6kHz, 3.15k, 1 or 1.5kHz...sometimes 630 or 800Hz too.

There's a book called "The Yamaha Guide to Sound Reinforcement" that you should buy & use as your bible 'cause it covers all this stuff & more!

If your playing dive venues & the like you gotta keep it as simple as possible for the sound monkeys. If you walk in with your vocal FX box and a wireless mic & in-ears...you HAVE TO BE self-contained or 98.7% of them are going to hate you and have the bartenders poison your drinks. You can almost always count on them not ringing the monitors either...usually it's cut & cut & cut night after night until the EQ is more hacked up then a teenager in a horror movie.

I used to travel on & off with a band where the lead singer was on in-ears for a while & I never had a problem in most of the venues we got to, but she almost always had problems if they were traveling alone & the house guy wasn't used to in-ears or willing to switch things around.
Old 8th June 2006
  #9
Here for the gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay Kahrs
If your playing dive venues & the like you gotta keep it as simple as possible for the sound monkeys. If you walk in with your vocal FX box and a wireless mic & in-ears...you HAVE TO BE self-contained or 98.7% of them are going to hate you and have the bartenders poison your drinks. You can almost always count on them not ringing the monitors either...usually it's cut & cut & cut night after night until the EQ is more hacked up then a teenager in a horror movie.
Currently, I'm pretty self-contained. I have an extension chord and a power strip. I plug my VoiceLive into the strip, and my feedback killer into the strip. The mic goes to the voicelive and the voicelive goes to the feedback killer, and this goes to the mixer. I have to set this up quickly, since we only have 10 minutes to setup, on average.

The problem is that I have huge variations in volume level. My voice is just like that, and I have had lessons.

So is it possible for me to have a self-contained system with in-ear monitors? Or is that going to be too complicated? I can set up fast, so if everything was ready beforehand, that would be really good.

Or am I just totally screwed? I really don't want to give up my technology because of feedback problems...


(Also, just by having the VoiceLive on, I'm much more likely to get feedback... even if there is no compression (just harmonies and pitch correction). Why is this?)

Once again, thanks for your insights.
Old 8th June 2006
  #10
Gear Nut
 
Mr. Victory's Avatar
 

If you've got things like reverb and delays (and compression as mentioned before)coming out of the TC on top of just harmonies its going to bring down your level threshold before feedback as well.
Try to keep it as dry as possible, interms of time based fx (reverb, delay etc....)
Old 8th June 2006
  #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Victory
If you've got things like reverb and delays (and compression as mentioned before)coming out of the TC on top of just harmonies its going to bring down your level threshold before feedback as well.
Try to keep it as dry as possible, interms of time based fx (reverb, delay etc....)
is there a reason why an external compressor/reverb unit would cause less feedback? i'm perfectly fine with taking off all the reverb and compression, but i'm still left with the volume problem -- namely, how do i get more volume?
Old 8th June 2006
  #12
Gear Guru
 
u b k's Avatar
 

for kicks, do a song without your guitarist playing. get the levels good with the drums, bass, and your voice. feel what that feels like, get into the pocket.

then do the same song, with your guitarist playing. this should help to put perspective on where the problem is. my guess: everyone plays a little easier and more dynamically (i.e., better) with no guitar.

guitarists are almost always too loud in my experience, and their tone usually has way too much low-mid, which masks everything, especially vocals. fortunately, guitar amps are very directional and have tone controls. have the guitarist point his amp at his head but away from yours, experiment with some low-mid cut.

also, jay is right-on about ringing the monitors. when you're done, your eq should look nearly flat, with 3 or 6 individual sliders pulled way back, everything else near unity. if it looks like a home stereo curve, it's not helping. 4k is usually the worst offender for straight-line feedback, 800 or 1.2 for room overload.


gregoire
del ubik
Old 8th June 2006
  #13
Here for the gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by u b i k
for kicks, do a song without your guitarist playing. get the levels good with the drums, bass, and your voice. feel what that feels like, get into the pocket.

then do the same song, with your guitarist playing. this should help to put perspective on where the problem is. my guess: everyone plays a little easier and more dynamically (i.e., better) with no guitar.

guitarists are almost always too loud in my experience, and their tone usually has way too much low-mid, which masks everything, especially vocals. fortunately, guitar amps are very directional and have tone controls. have the guitarist point his amp at his head but away from yours, experiment with some low-mid cut.

also, jay is right-on about ringing the monitors. when you're done, your eq should look nearly flat, with 3 or 6 individual sliders pulled way back, everything else near unity. if it looks like a home stereo curve, it's not helping. 4k is usually the worst offender for straight-line feedback, 800 or 1.2 for room overload.


gregoire
del ubik

the guitarist is already turning it way down for me. i dunno.

the guitar isn't going lower, i'm not losing the box. any suggestions on how to make this setup work?

also, would having an external reverb/compressor, apart from the voicelive, help reduce feedback? or would i just be wasting my money?
Old 8th June 2006
  #14
Lives for gear
 

If you want a real world, professional answer I'll give it to you, but it isn't going to be one that you like. I've never heard you and I don't know what you sound like, but you made one statement that tells me that you are fairly "green" as a vocalist, so...

You have two choices:
#1) stay with the stuff you have, continue to use it as a crutch and never improve much
#2) learn how to sing in tune with power and use processing to embellish something that is already good

A vocalist has two responsibilities... sing in tune and sing with enough support (power) to be heard. If you need the autotune to be in tune than you are being very lazy and you'll never learn to sing in tune. You don't allow your guitarists to play out of tune do you? Why should you be allowed to? Work on pitching!
You should be able to project above the band live.
I can't tell you how... you need to learn how to do it.
Go to a vocal coach.

It isn't easy my friend! If it was I'd be a famously wealthy vocalist myself.
It takes work and there is no box of circuits that is going to do it for you.

Every vocalist I have ever know that was any good in a band situation did it without anyone's help. I have mixed for quite a few good people, but my adding compression or FX only made them "sound" better. It didn't make them sound good. In fact, I use so little FX live that most people would say it is "dry." I do use compression and even if I use a lot I do it in a way that most people wouldn't notice it. Because I have mixed for over thirty years I know how to milk stuff and finesse equipment and introduce little nuances into the sound that compliments a singer.

Seriously, you need to re-think your situation.
Quit using the TC Helicon.
It needs to be out front.

About not being heard above the GTR player:
It's called using dynamics... if the band isn't using any then you can't either.
If you can't sing parts loud enough then you need to re-think the validity of the part.
If it REALLY needs to be sung softly then why is the band playing loud?

If an orchestra has all of the parts written fff (triple forte) and the oboe has one part written f (forte) he isn't going to be heard. It's called arranging and it applies to rock bands, too... all music in fact!

I replied to your post because I felt that the answers were dancing around the true issue. The answer is not about equipment and hooking it up. It is about YOU. This is your responsibity.

If you continue to rely on equipment for your inability to sing in tune and be heard then someone who can will come along and you are out of a gig.

Take my advice and do this for yourself. Work on pitching. Learn to project.

A great (or even good) musician sounds good regardless of the equipment.
I make my living dealing with equipment and making people sound better and I'll tell you that I can't make them sound good if they don't already sound good. I wish I could, but I can't... and I'm REAL GOOD at what I do! If someone sucks... they suck and I can't really fix it.

Example: I have played guitar since I could hold one, so I'm pretty good. I can go to Guitar Center and pick up ANY guitar and sound good on it. It isn't the guitar. Some are "better" and some rigs sound "better' for some styles. I can't really play classical guitar and no guitar or amp or device will allow me to do it either. I have to LEARN to do it!

I am being honest here my friend.

Practice WITHOUT anything other than a mic and a p.a. for a few months.
Then tell me that you aren't better.
You will be and this is the only way to get better.

Also, do not use in ears at this point.
It will confuse the issues.
I have seen quite a few bands sound worse after using in ears.
I had an eight piece C&W band realize that they sound better w/o their in ears this past weekend.
Time constraints meant they had to use wedges and the CD I burned tells the tale.

LOOSE THE TC HELICON TONIGHT AT YOUR NEXT PRACTICE SESSION OR GIG!
It is not a bad piece and a good soundman can make you sound cool if he uses at F.O.H.

Also, I have run VERY large monitor rigs.
There is rarely any channel compression when using wedges.
If it is, then the compression is slight.

Are you under the inpression that that box (or any box for that matter) will make you sound louder when you sing quiet? A compressor only "turns things down." If you try to have the compressor turn down the loud parts so that the soft parts are at the proper level then when you are not singing it is going to feedback like a bitch. This is a completely wrong and incorrect use of the device. I'd like to drive my car to Europe, but it keeps filling with water!

Re-think things my friend.
I think that you already know this.

Sincerely,
Danny Brown
Old 8th June 2006
  #15
Here for the gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by dbbubba
Re-think things my friend.
I think that you already know this.

Sincerely,
Danny Brown
First, thank you for responding and trying to help.

Regarding the whole driving a car filled with water to Europe thing, we've been playing gigs and I haven't gotten feedback yet. The limitation was actually that the PAs in both venues were turned up to the max. So maybe the RMS signal was too weak, even if it was frequently peaking. I was just thinking if I compressed things, maybe it would be better. Other bands playing at the same venues could be heard.

So right now I'm not getting feedback. I'm just worried about it happenning. That's why I'm asking about using the internal compressor on the VoiceLive or using an external compressor. Also, I have a feedback killer. If I use the VoiceLive compressor, I have to put the compressor before the feedback killer in the chain. Would this be right? Would a sonic maximizer make things better or worse, because I was thinking of getting a BBE compressor? (I have a feeling the answer is worse.)

I don't think what you are suggesting (regarding ditching the VoiceLive) helps my situation (no offense).

I already have taken vocal lessons and I do pitch exercises and rib cage exercises and vocal warmups everyday. I HAVE done months of practice without it, and then I used it for a while, stopped using it, and then started using it again. I just like the more polished sound.

We are an aggressive rock band and there are some parts where I am bordering on screaming and some parts where I am singing very softly. And I do have a voice that varies in volume. That's not "bad technique" -- it's a stylistic choice. Also, you also say that I should rethink parts of the song where the dynamics are in conflict. My view is that if it can be done in the studio, I'd like to be able to do it live. Opera singing was stylistically done in a way to project as loud as possible because powered amplifiers didn't exist. We do have compresors and EQs and all that, and if I can get the sound I want using them, I'd rather do that than re-think an entire song so that it can be played live.

Look, I don't NEED to use the VoieLive. I WANT to use it.

I'm interested in reducing feedback. Would there be any benefit to having an external unit to add reverb and compression instead of doing it internally through the voicelive? in other words, would i be wasting my money to buy external gear?
Old 9th June 2006
  #16
One with big hooves
 
Jay Kahrs's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by deafboy
I was just thinking if I compressed things, maybe it would be better. Other bands playing at the same venues could be heard.
Think about that for a bit...

If you analyze it...what IS that bit of information telling you?

It gives me a couple three ideas...most of them pointing to pilot error of some kind or another.

Really though...it's also IMPOSSIBLE to know what it's like out front when your on stage.

Quote:
Look, I don't NEED to use the VoieLive. I WANT to use it.

I'm interested in reducing feedback. Would there be any benefit to having an external unit to add reverb and compression instead of doing it internally through the voicelive? in other words, would i be wasting my money to buy external gear?
Yeah.

Adding a BBE or whatever else is only gonna make things worse.

Really dude...what you gotta do is put the time into learning your FX box and programming patches that will work with your band and your mic & all that. All that **** is valid...but ONLY if it's done well otherwise it can come off as an effect or gimmick or really...just be a HUGE pain in the ass for everyone involved when your magic box starts to squeal like a stuck pig.

If you go in there and modify all those presets & blah blah & blee blee...you can probably make things a whole lot better. My guess is that's too much happening with your presets...maybe some kinda EQ and compression and all that making it worse.

Keep 'yer anti-feedback box around for those wonky clubs and the stray peaks...but even the feedback busters like the Sabines & stuff won't totally prevent feedback. If you try hard enough (or fuk up enough) you'll still make the rig squeal.

But really man...those anti-feedback boxes are a crutch. If the microphone is good and isn't a $30 POS, the PA is setup right, the gain staging is solid & the monitors have been rung you'll be able to get a mic loud enough to rip someones head off before it even THINKS of feeding back.
Old 9th June 2006
  #17
Here for the gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay Kahrs
It gives me a couple three ideas...most of them pointing to pilot error of some kind or another.
I've toyed with the settings like crazy. It actually hasn't gotten feedback at the gig.

The presets are generally really simple. No weird EQing. I don't EQ.

I have a really good mic. I actually went into the guitar center and had them plug in a bunch of different mics to see what made my voice sound the best. I finally got one that was 120 and had a tight polar pattern. I was willing to spend more, but that one sounded the best. (It's an AKG 880, I believe.)


*** But can you (OR ANYONE!) please let me know: would there be any advantage of getting an external compressor, different from the built in voicelive one, so that it can go after the feedback killer in the chain?
Old 9th June 2006
  #18
Gear Nut
 
jenkel16's Avatar
 

I'm really surprised noone has offered this solution yet.

Buy this
http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/MS3/
or something similar

plug your mic into it then into your voicelive, give the engineer or sound monkey both lines, clean and voicelived. This way he can do what needs to be done to your VOCALS to get them audible through the PA without affecting the EFFECTS. He also has the effects to play with. Get rid of the feedback suppressor. That thing will do more to fawk your voice up then anything. I suspect that your voice was inaudible because the feedback suppresor was pulling a fair number of "fedback frequencies" out of it, eliminating a fair amount of volume from the original signal. If you have to keep it, insert it on your monitor send, that's what it's for. Ideally, it is best to have the vocal effects out with the engineer, as he is more able to use it. You are there to perform your music not worry about "oh no the delay's are too loud or too long or off tempo or whatever else have you" that's the engineer's job, that's what he get's paid for.
Lastly, in keeping with the slightly demeaning attitude in this thread
Quote:
My view is that if it can be done in the studio, I'd like to be able to do it live.
If that's what you're after just give the house your CD and jump around on stage. Guitar amp problem solved! It might even get the drummer to show up on time. Alot of things are achieved in the studio due to a level of control that is very rarely present in a live situation, especially not some punk dive with a beer stained floor.
Old 9th June 2006
  #19
Here for the gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jenkel16
If that's what you're after just give the house your CD and jump around on stage. Guitar amp problem solved!
lol. I would be fine with that! But it's not pragmatic. People going to a show want to hear it live. I'm trying to be realistic.

Also, there's a slight delay due to the digital effects. Splitting will probably cause phase problems.
Old 9th June 2006
  #20
Gear Nut
 
jenkel16's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by deafboy
lol. I would be fine with that! But it's not pragmatic. People going to a show want to hear it live. I'm trying to be realistic.

Also, there's a slight delay due to the digital effects. Splitting will probably cause phase problems.
It is totally unrealistic to expect a live concert to sound like a studio recording.


Set the voice live thinga majig to 100%wet. Phase problems no more. You are just using that for the effects not an actual vocal signal.
Old 9th June 2006
  #21
Here for the gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jenkel16
It is totally unrealistic to expect a live concert to sound like a studio recording.


Set the voice live thinga majig to 100%wet. Phase problems no more. You are just using that for the effects not an actual vocal signal.
well, there's the pitch correction issue.... ! plus, it actually changes the whole sound of things.

I mean, if I can't fix it, I suppose I'll have to not use it. It just comes down to that. But I would really like to find a way to use it.



Is there any benefit to buying an external compressor that is different from the VoiceLive?
Old 9th June 2006
  #22
Lives for gear
 

I gave you the answer...

If you saw the names of people I have mixed live or recorded you'd see that I know what I am talking about.
I'm not going to list them, but they are giants in the aggressive metal world.
They didn't and don't use equipment to do the work.

If you know how to set your gain stageing up you can get rediculous amounts of gain in the mains.
Putting all that stuff before the monitor mixer is going to make life extremely difficult.

No-one worth a SH*T in the real world puts a processor like a pitch correction device or their own compressor in the monitor chain.
If they insisted on it the sound crew would be laughing at them behind their back anways.
It's not neccesary and it's just never done.
Yeah, there have been some guys like Gibby Haines in the Butthole Surfers who had DDLS.
I'm sure you could scratch around and find a few more oddball examples, but don't bother.
If you sing through a pitch correction device.. how do you know what YOU sound like?

Your situation is one where you have messed things up with the TC thing and now want to add another piece to the equation to correct it.

I can only offer real advice.

Just because somethinmg can be done in a recording environment DOES NOT mean it is possible in the live world.

DB
Old 13th June 2006
  #23
Gear Head
 

I dunno. But maybe he's got something there. Most live local clubs. I can't hear the singer.
Sometimes they don't want to be heard. shy away from the mic.
Bad mix can be a case. sound guy. nothing but Hugh drums an guitar.
I like music where the voice is up front. Peter Gabriel or woman folk singers

So just maybe get out of the loud rock band. Because the guitar player might want to be heard over you, the drummer wants to be heard over the guitar player, then the band splits up.
happens all the time. Make sure the guitar player knows without words an music. There's know fans.
Maybe compression can be used if there is a pre with a controllable input output can get you voice out there. make sure the input of your mic is low an the output is high. I can be wrong

Hats off to you dbbubba
Just trying to give another scenario
Old 13th June 2006
  #24
Super Moderator
 
Remoteness's Avatar
DB,

There’s nothing wrong with sharing your list of giants in the right context. Maybe one of these days you’ll turn us on to that list of greats. I personally love to read stuff like that.

What did you mean when you said, “They didn't and don't use equipment to do the work.” Is that everyone? No one uses equipment to do their job? Are there no Gearslutz in the aggressive metal world?

You also said, “No-one worth a SH*T in the real world puts a processor like a pitch correction device or their own compressor in the monitor chain. If they insisted on it the sound crew would be laughing at them behind their back anyways.” Now, that’s kind of strange. You’re going to say NO to an artist when he or she wants to put some special (to them) device, EQ or their favorite processor on their vocal or instrument? Maybe I miss understood you because that sounds very odd to me. There are singers that use auto-tune in their monitors to help them stay in pitch. Let me explain. They listen to both the pitch correction and their own voice to help themselves stay in tune. They use auto-tune as a guide and not as a way to fool the audience – Kind of like double tracking their own voice live. The audience hears the real thing while the singer listens to the corrected vocal along with their own voice as a way to stay in pitch or at least know where they're at. IMO, it’s a righteous way to use the box.

I come from the mindset that anything is possible… If an artist wants to try something they did in the studio in the live environment who am I to say no to their desires?

YMMV
Old 13th June 2006
  #25


Back in the old days, the FB was dry. Occasionally you'd get a big act that would put a little reverb in the vox on stage. These were profesionals who knew how to keep the stage volume down to sane levels.

Now, with all the IEM systems, it's not uncommon to have as much processing going to the band's heads as there is in FOH.

Using that much processing with wedges is a bad idea.......

As far as equipment for a vocalist: Bring your super card mic and a stand you like. Learn to work the mic (swallow it when singing quietly and back off when you scream) if you want to limit your dynamic range to 10dB like that crunched guitar.

Leave the effects to the guy out FOH.......




-tINY

Old 13th June 2006
  #26
Gear Maniac
 

For those NOT in the know:

Quote:
Back in the old days, the FB was dry.
FB = "foldback"...i.e., the monitors.

Quote:
Now, with all the IEM systems, it's not uncommon to have as much processing going to the band's heads as there is in FOH.
IEM = "in ear monitors"

FOH = "front of house"...i.e...the mains or house sound

Carry on....
Old 13th June 2006
  #27
Super Moderator
 
Remoteness's Avatar
I just want to say -- I love GS!
Old 7th July 2006
  #28
Lives for gear
 
kindkind's Avatar
 

What a goldmine.

Hey. I found this goldmine when i searched on feedback. My band has a serious problem with feedback on the vocals too. We are a band devoted to sound design. We are extremely synthetic and require heavy vox processing for the music to have the desired otherworldlyness.

This is what i have learned from this thread:

get the yamaha book about sound reinforcement.

Get tight polar pattern mics (we use sm 58s)

get the fx out of the monitor mix.


I have a couple clues about what the correct gain staging is, but I don't know specifically what i should be doing there. need to know about that. DB???

maybe a feedback eliminator with tight mics and no fx in the monitors would do it.
BTW we are using pretty messed up fx with a tinge of some telephone distortion/reverb and whatnot. we use a voiceworks and that digitech or DOD floor unit which is the only resonably priced unit out there with full fx (read distortions....) for vocals.

I swear we are not playing that loud. the vox just need to come up a little but it is that little bit that creates the feedback. What mics should we try? and gain staging sounds like a big one too. Is a feedback eliminator going to also help with everything else implemented?

thank you
c
Old 7th July 2006
  #29


Make sure your mains are infront of the stage too - you can feedback through them if they aren't in front or you are in a small room.

Make sure you don't have compression in the monitor feeds.

Go shopping for vocal mics. I believe there are some SUper/hyper cardioid dynamics out there now for under $150 (used to pretty slim pickings in the budget market).



-tINY

Old 8th July 2006
  #30
Lives for gear
 
kindkind's Avatar
 

thanks for the reply i will be looking for those mics.

as far as gain staging if i have a mic going into a mixer, going out an aux into 2 processors in series and then returning to another separate channel should it just be like a gain ramp or what. kinda hard to tell cause i dont know how each units gain knob/digital numerical value is in relationto the others...
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