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Keys to mixing Stage monitors, the Do's and Dont's Effects Pedals, Units & Accessories
Old 19th November 2009
  #31
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Yeah - thats the one - those are fine.. simple/straight forward... not a bad price. Look into Crest & Soundcraft options too.
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Keys to mixing Stage monitors, the Do's and Dont's-mc1608m_yamaha_m.jpg  
Old 19th November 2009
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DannyL View Post
...
Getting the band to use amp stands will help you (and them) keep the SPL's down on the stage. I had a guitarist once (although in a live recording situation) who was playing ungodly loud. I put his Mesa Boogie on a chair, without touching a single knob. Then he played. He almost fell over from the shock of the volume. After that the session went as smooth as silk...the band was also much happier as they could now hear themselves.
...
I was mixing a band at a college Bible Study in a big downtown church. Lead player was a college kid on a Telecaster with all the pedals, through a Twin Reverb. It was on the stage and he stood directly in front of it... his knees were on level with the top of the cone and 6-8" in front... barely enough room for a 57. While we usually played catchup with the snare, whenever he played, it was definitely catchup with E Gtr. Loud, harsh, strident... all applied. He didn't believe it (hearing only the wash from all the brick walls and hard pews) until...

one night I removed his wedge and put the Twin on the step below him, angled right up at his face. He got about half a verse through the first song at soundcheck, stopped, looked at me and said...

"This sounds like crap."

I said... "Yep."

After he turned down and reworked his tone, we mic'ed it and all was much, much better. The next week, it was back behind him, but with the changes intact. I was even able to get him up in his wedge a bit without killing the stage level.

Last time I mixed him he was playing through a classic 30w tube amp (maybe a Gibson?) with only a volume pedal and a wah, which he requested we locate offstage. I mic'ed it up with a Fat Head and it was a beautiful thing. Sometimes they listen to us... sometimes it takes a bit of an object lesson.
Old 19th November 2009
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hbphotoav View Post
I was mixing a band at a college Bible Study in a big downtown church. Lead player was a college kid on a Telecaster with all the pedals, through a Twin Reverb. It was on the stage and he stood directly in front of it... his knees were on level with the top of the cone and 6-8" in front... barely enough room for a 57. While we usually played catchup with the snare, whenever he played, it was definitely catchup with E Gtr. Loud, harsh, strident... all applied. He didn't believe it (hearing only the wash from all the brick walls and hard pews) until...

one night I removed his wedge and put the Twin on the step below him, angled right up at his face. He got about half a verse through the first song at soundcheck, stopped, looked at me and said...

"This sounds like crap."

I said... "Yep."

After he turned down and reworked his tone, we mic'ed it and all was much, much better. The next week, it was back behind him, but with the changes intact. I was even able to get him up in his wedge a bit without killing the stage level.

Last time I mixed him he was playing through a classic 30w tube amp (maybe a Gibson?) with only a volume pedal and a wah, which he requested we locate offstage. I mic'ed it up with a Fat Head and it was a beautiful thing. Sometimes they listen to us... sometimes it takes a bit of an object lesson.
Agreed. I already did the same thing with our guitarist. They listened to me and turned there cabs down. Overall stage went way down and i can now get them where they need in they're individual wedges with less stage noise then they're guit's cranked and sounding like crap!!
Old 19th November 2009
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hobson View Post
Yeah - thats the one - those are fine.. simple/straight forward... not a bad price. Look into Crest & Soundcraft options too.
Yea thats it. Comes with an anvil road case and we agreed upon $450. Any suggestions for crest & Soundcraft?

Thanks
Old 19th November 2009
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joelpatterson View Post
"and when you're done, more of everything else."
Old 20th November 2009
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BFSound View Post
Yea thats it. Comes with an anvil road case and we agreed upon $450. Any suggestions for crest & Soundcraft?

Thanks
Probably something like this:

Soundcraft Spirit Monitor Mixer - eBay (item 280424807422 end time Nov-26-09 13:03:19 PST)

or, for a bit more money and a good deal more mixer, this:

Yamaha PM3000-24 - eBay (item 220191017617 end time Dec-01-09 11:05:25 PST)
Old 20th November 2009
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hbphotoav View Post
Those are nice! I did see that spirit one on ebay. Wish i had the money for that guy.
Old 20th November 2009
  #38
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1. use all of the same monitors (including cue wedge)

2. try not to use compression, if you do, do not use makeup gain (keep at unity)

3. some times when you have reach a limit to where the artists can't hear it, and you turn it up and it starts feeding back, try bringing back a frequency you cut because you cut it too much. Check the mix via cue.

4. use a quality monitor board that has cueing after the mix out insert. this will tell you how the artist hears themself after you've cut frequencies on the EQ.

5. Remember, don't drive your board hard dammit. For example, Crossfade's monitor engineer jacked his Midas monitor board into Biamp EV PX1152M and drove them to death by clipping the signal before the amp and before the mix out. The QSC clip lights were on but the power meter on amps were bearly lighting up the first two dots. He nuked them!
and his monitor mix was wimpy because he couldn't get enough gain out due to pushing his mix busses so hard for so many other shows, he killed internally his mix out buffers. I am really cautious about what gets jacked in my stuff.

6. keep your noise floor in your monitors down. The cleaner the sound is the less likely bad harmonics are amplified.
Old 20th November 2009
  #39
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https://www.gearslutz.com/board/3601039-post12.html

Sorry i can not modify the link text, it is not about my rig, it was a comment on doing monitoring...
Old 20th November 2009
  #40
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Thanks guys, good info.
Old 21st November 2009
  #41
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As long as the stage is not extremely large, and you use wedges for monitoring, I'd stay away from any fx at all, except from graphic and param. EQ's.
Make sure that you know the mic's that the singers will use, and get rid of the feedbacking frequencies on that particular mic/wedge combination before the band enters. Bandmembers will very quickly loose their trust in you when one of the mics start too feedback during the soundcheck, which is rather killing for the workflow.

Put as less instruments as possible on each monitor group. Only the instruments that matter for each particular artist. A pair of wedges isn't the same as a full range system, so the more instruments you add up on a monitor group, the blurrier the image will become, and the louder they want to have everything.

When EQ-ing, focus on the important properties of an instrument. You won't hear the thumb of a kick or bass guitar on the monitors, so focus on the tick and strings from those instruments, for example.

Only use hipass filters to get rid of the lows on a monitor signal. Using the graphic EQ for that purpose can cause some serious phase issues.

And... don't add the frequencies you pulled away with the graphic EQ again with the parametric EQ. It may sound pretty silly, but I see that kind of mistakes happening a lot on the stage.

Good luck!

Regards, Jip
Old 21st November 2009
  #42
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I hate to sound like a noob. But in all reality i have leaned everything i know from first hand experience i have no education when it comes to sound engineering.

But can someone explain more about phase issue, null. Stuff like this im not educated on phase issues and really what that stuff is.

Thanks
Old 23rd November 2009
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BFSound View Post
I hate to sound like a noob. But in all reality i have leaned everything i know from first hand experience i have no education when it comes to sound engineering.

But can someone explain more about phase issue, null. Stuff like this im not educated on phase issues and really what that stuff is.

Thanks
Analog EQ phase issues
Old 23rd November 2009
  #44
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Cool thanks for that thread there is some really good info in there thumbsup
Old 24th November 2009
  #45
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Many good advice already. I just want to add one more.
Focus on the musicians, do what they want as fast as you can. Really, maybe it is not your best snare sound on that night, but if you fulfill request fast, players will be much happier than if they always waiting you to tweak things.
Of course this does not mean to sound crappy, but remember that those mixes won't go into grammy. Make clear, puchy mix fast, make correction even faster.
TD
Old 24th November 2009
  #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tamasdragon View Post
Many good advice already. I just want to add one more.
Focus on the musicians, do what they want as fast as you can. Really, maybe it is not your best snare sound on that night, but if you fulfill request fast, players will be much happier than if they always waiting you to tweak things.
Of course this does not mean to sound crappy, but remember that those mixes won't go into grammy. Make clear, puchy mix fast, make correction even faster.
TD
Indeed, try to keep eye contact with the musicians as much as possible during the show. Musicians don't like to first wave and yell at you for half an hour before you notice them.
Old 17th December 2009
  #47
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Just wanted to say thanks to all who posted thumbsup We got that yamaha mc1608 last week and some nicer graphic EQ's. Set it all up and everyone had the biggest smile after practice! I was even able to add a short verb and 1 tap delay to lead vox mix and had no SPL or feedback issue from the get go.

Any tips on for setting up the grahpic EQ. I read that ad the wedge crossover point sometimes the woofer and horn distort. Is it a good idea to just cut slightly at the speakers x-over point?

Thanks
Old 17th December 2009
  #48
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Yes, you might find that you need to cut a couple of dB's at the crossover points, but there's really only one way to ring out a wedge: Use your ears.
Old 17th December 2009
  #49
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good to know, also like posted above i know your not supposed to add back with the parametric what you cut with your graphic... Should you use the channel strip EQ to shape each instruments sound then just use your graphics to cut problem frequencies only. We played at a good local venue last friday and the monitor engineer had all the mids practically cut, he said they were mid'y monitors. I mean those are the fundamental frequencies for guitars and vocals. And then is it alright to boost some of the key frequencies for vocals and guitars to have them cut through in they're individual mixes. Like you would want your vocals to pop in the vocal mix and guitars to cut through in the guitar mixes. ya know...
Old 17th December 2009
  #50
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I find EQ'ing by substraction works better than trying to add more of a frequency. If it's not "clear" enough (3-4k range) then in actuality it is probably just "boxy" (500 hz) or "boomy" (250 ish).
Old 17th December 2009
  #51
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Thats what i thought.

What do you guys think when it comes to establishing gain structure for monitors? I find with our amps set to "0" and the master buss faders set the the boards nominal output level, i barely have to turn up the mic pres on each channel or the channels aux pot send? My VU's barely even read and im able to get really loud mixes. Is this a good way or should i turn my amps all the way down and set everything up on my board so the output is at "0" on the VU's then turn the amps up to a comfortable volume giving me room to turn down or up.

Thanks
Old 17th December 2009
  #52
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Get a good solid gain on your input channel first and formost. Because of the logarithmic response of volume controls (faders and knobs) you'll find that mixing close to unity gives you the greatest control. If you're at the bottom of the fader's travel then slight movements will result in large changes. So I like to try to keep around unity and back off at either the amp or the master fader. Which one depends on the quality of the system. If the amps are crap and noisy (but powerful) I'll let the console push it (of course not too much though, leave yourself headroom). If I'm mixing on a crappy console then I'll let the amp do the work. Of course, ideally they are both of decent quality, in which case it's not a matter of sound quality but rather of convenience. Then I'll just pull down the master fader.
Old 17th December 2009
  #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bishopthomas View Post
Get a good solid gain on your input channel first and formost. Because of the logarithmic response of volume controls (faders and knobs) you'll find that mixing close to unity gives you the greatest control. If you're at the bottom of the fader's travel then slight movements will result in large changes. So I like to try to keep around unity and back off at either the amp or the master fader. Which one depends on the quality of the system. If the amps are crap and noisy (but powerful) I'll let the console push it (of course not too much though, leave yourself headroom). If I'm mixing on a crappy console then I'll let the amp do the work. Of course, ideally they are both of decent quality, in which case it's not a matter of sound quality but rather of convenience. Then I'll just pull down the master fader.
Sounds good like i said we just got the MC1608 which is old but freakin great, pre's sound real good so im going leave most the work up to it since were using some CE2000's for monitors which have the power but are a little on the noisy side. I would consider both the amps and board good and ideal but the amps could be better.

Thansk for the post bishop!
Old 19th December 2009
  #54
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i used to spend most of my live sound career as a monitor guy, and learnt these tips along the way.

if you have ANYONE on IEMs, makesure you have a set for your self

always have a listen wedge, even if everyone is on IEMs

always have at least 1 send of wedges for the lead singer even if he/she is on IEMs!

if you are working on a large stage, use sidefills. a note here, we would delay the singers wedges to the side fills. it wasnt enough for the singers to notice latency but it made the vocal mixes so much more coherent!

use as little EQ boost as possiable, especially if you are using a cheeper desk. and also make sure your gain structure is spot on.

and a sneaky little tip for the enjoyment of the monitor engineer... if you have a spare aux send, dial in a little mix of everything for yourself. i find it gave me a better view of the big picture and i tended to mix better when i did this.

it also comes in handy when you have quiet acoustic acts and a lot of important people back stage (managers, promoter etc)
Old 20th December 2009
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jude View Post
i used to spend most of my live sound career as a monitor guy, and learnt these tips along the way.

if you have ANYONE on IEMs, makesure you have a set for your self

always have a listen wedge, even if everyone is on IEMs

always have at least 1 send of wedges for the lead singer even if he/she is on IEMs!

if you are working on a large stage, use sidefills. a note here, we would delay the singers wedges to the side fills. it wasnt enough for the singers to notice latency but it made the vocal mixes so much more coherent!

use as little EQ boost as possiable, especially if you are using a cheeper desk. and also make sure your gain structure is spot on.

and a sneaky little tip for the enjoyment of the monitor engineer... if you have a spare aux send, dial in a little mix of everything for yourself. i find it gave me a better view of the big picture and i tended to mix better when i did this.

it also comes in handy when you have quiet acoustic acts and a lot of important people back stage (managers, promoter etc)
Good tips. WE had started talking about gain structure above. Would you get your gain with the aux pot sends on each channel and set master buss fader at the nominal setting and use little mic pre gain other other way get a good solid input gain and go from there.
Old 22nd December 2009
  #56
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i set up my input gain as per normal, my aux master faders at 0dB then just use the aux send knobs to work up the mix i need
Old 22nd December 2009
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jude View Post
i set up my input gain as per normal, my aux master faders at 0dB then just use the aux send knobs to work up the mix i need
Thanks for the input, thats how i like to mix but since im mixing on the older MC1608 i cannot really monitor the actual input level as i turn up the pre's. Which kind of sucks, it has a peak led thats bout it. I wish when cue'd that one of the aux VU's would show the input level but they dont. It something minor to work around but ill look through the manual again and see if there is a way to see the input level?
Old 22nd December 2009
  #58
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Those old Yamaha boards are great in my opinion. If you set the faders on 0 then the VU meter should be reflecting the output of the channel.
If you set the gain on 0 also then they should be showing the channel input. But if it's a mic it most likely wont move the meter much if any.

Normally when setting gain you follow the signal path, micpre first >>amp last.
Old 22nd December 2009
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mixedupsteve View Post
Those old Yamaha boards are great in my opinion. If you set the faders on 0 then the VU meter should be reflecting the output of the channel.
If you set the gain on 0 also then they should be showing the channel input. But if it's a mic it most likely wont move the meter much if any.

Normally when setting gain you follow the signal path, micpre first >>amp last.
For sure a kick a** board in my opinion i love it! The mic pre does not have a unity or nominal "0" setting just left to right: -20 to -60 mic sensitivity control. Only the master faders and the individual aux pot sends for each channel have a nominal setting which is marked by an arrow.

Here is the manual and on page four it explains the gain exactly.

Im thinking set the master faders and aux sends to the nominal setting and then increasing the gain which would yes be displayed on the VU's then. Then i should be able to make very small adjustment if need be. What do you think?
Attached Files
File Type: pdf MC1608ME.pdf (1.87 MB, 556 views)
Old 23rd December 2009
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tourtelot View Post
Don't allow ANY member of the band to throws things at you.

D.
Or threaten to kill you.

WT - I was only 17 when it happened to me.....
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