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Dante (MON) to AES50/MADI/etc. (FOH)
Old 6th November 2020
  #1
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Dante (MON) to AES50/MADI/etc. (FOH)

Hi all,

I'm looking to build a monitor rig running Dante, but I know many FOH consoles use AES50, MADI, or other protocols.

So it seems the logical solution would be to convert from Dante to whatever protocol FOH needs - I still get to use Dante for the monitor rig and they're happy with their protocol of choice.

What are my conversion options? Only two options I'm seeing right now are:

1) Klark Teknik DN9650 Digital Audio Network Bridge ($1799)

2) Appsys MVR-64 Multiverter ($2999/3999 with sample conversion)

EDIT: Also found 3) NTP/DAD DX32R Digital Audio Network Bridge.. $2999 new.


These prices are hard to stomach..I'm still unsure if the 9650 would convert protocols other than AES50 (i.e. MADI) and the multiverter is not even feasible.

Thoughts?

Last edited by topgearbk; 7th November 2020 at 09:21 PM.. Reason: adding information
Old 6th November 2020
  #2
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Rick Dalton's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by topgearbk View Post
Hi all,

I'm looking to build a monitor rig running Dante, but I know many FOH consoles use AES50, MADI, or other protocols.

So it seems the logical solution would be to convert from Dante to whatever protocol FOH needs - I still get to use Dante for the monitor rig and they're happy with their protocol of choice.

What are my conversion options? Only two options I'm seeing right now are:

1) Klark Teknik DN9650 Digital Audio Network Bridge ($1799)

2) Appsys MVR-64 Multiverter ($2999/3999 with sample conversion)


These prices are hard to stomach..I'm still unsure if the 9650 would convert protocols other than AES50 (i.e. MADI) and the multiverter is not even feasible.

Thoughts?
I've seen the used Klark Teknik DN9650 closer to a grand.
Old 6th November 2020 | Show parent
  #3
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if you have your own desk, adding various cards might be best; if the desk doesn't allow for all formats, there's no way around using an external format converter - i'm using a combination of both approaches as i have to occasionally deal with seven (!) different aoip formats! has been an annoyance for ca. 20 years now and which is the main reason why i went with madi as my primary format years ago...


...although even madi may come in at least three different 'formats'/with different cables and plugs as well these days?!
Old 7th November 2020
  #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deedeeyeah View Post
if you have your own desk, adding various cards might be best; if the desk doesn't allow for all formats, there's no way around using an external format converter - i'm using a combination of both approaches as i have to occasionally deal with seven (!) different aoip formats! has been an annoyance for ca. 20 years now and which is the main reason why i went with madi as my primary format years ago...


...although even madi may come in at least three different 'formats'/with different cables and plugs as well these days?!

From your experience, what's the breakdown on FOH rigs you see? 80% MADI?

Multiverter takes care of all 3 MADI formats... but maybe someday hah.

I'm actually looking at the Midas 32C as a rack mount mixer for my monitor rig. Emphasis on form factor and mobility - 1U and iPad controllable.
Old 7th November 2020
  #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick Dalton View Post
I've seen the used Klark Teknik DN9650 closer to a grand.
Good to know. After further research it's confirmed to just be for Dante <-> AES50. Which would be great for Midas desks, but I'd have to hope not to run into a MADI FOH rig! Not sure the odds would be in my favor.
Old 7th November 2020 | Show parent
  #6
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Rick Dalton's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by topgearbk View Post
Good to know. After further research it's confirmed to just be for Dante <-> AES50. Which would be great for Midas desks, but I'd have to hope not to run into a MADI FOH rig! Not sure the odds would be in my favor.
You'd have the ultranet, I'm thinking that is on the Midas and I believe it will work on the same network alongside Dante. I think.

Last edited by Rick Dalton; 7th November 2020 at 09:39 PM.. Reason: miss spelling
Old 7th November 2020
  #7
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Rick Dalton's Avatar
Still though, is if you ran into a MADI FOH rig. You'd have to can the Dante card for MADI. And monitor from ultranet
Old 7th November 2020
  #8
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Rick Dalton's Avatar
If Midas and Behringer would have put 2 expansion slots. I've thought about trying, but I'm sure the firmware would screw me.
Old 7th November 2020 | Show parent
  #9
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🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick Dalton View Post
You'd have the ultranet, I'm thinking that is on the Midas and I believe it will work on the same network alongside Dante. I think.
Alas, no. Ultranet is *not* Ethernet. The first hint is that you never have to establish IP addressing for the P16-M or P16-D boxes

There's a reverse-engineering site that inferred that it uses the RJ45 pinout in the following way:
Data pair Pins 1/2 - Chans 1-8
Data pair Pins 3/6 - Chans 9-16
Pins 4 and 5 are +15v
Pins 7 and 8 are GND.

https://reverseengineering.stackexch...ranet-protocol
Old 7th November 2020 | Show parent
  #10
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Rick Dalton's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by MediaGary View Post
Alas, no. Ultranet is *not* Ethernet. The first hint is that you never have to establish IP addressing for the P16-M or P16-D boxes

There's a reverse-engineering site that inferred that it uses the RJ45 pinout in the following way:
Data pair Pins 1/2 - Chans 1-8
Data pair Pins 3/6 - Chans 9-16
Pins 4 and 5 are +15v
Pins 7 and 8 are GND.

https://reverseengineering.stackexch...ranet-protocol
Thanks Gary. I read that link a couple weeks ago.
Old 7th November 2020
  #11
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Fuseburn's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
RME Digiface DANTE can at least do DANTE<->MADI conversion (via TotalMix) and is considerably cheaper, even including some basic Notebook which is actually a glorified power supply for the Digiface. Plus you can do recording.
Old 7th November 2020 | Show parent
  #12
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Rick Dalton's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fuseburn View Post
RME Digiface DANTE can at least do DANTE<->MADI conversion (via TotalMix) and is considerably cheaper, even including some basic Notebook which is actually a glorified power supply for the Digiface. Plus you can do recording.
not much cheaper. Mine was $1,200.00 a year ago. Has anyone else notice, anything Dante, is going up in price? I have.
Old 8th November 2020 | Show parent
  #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by topgearbk View Post
From your experience, what's the breakdown on FOH rigs you see? 80% MADI?

Multiverter takes care of all 3 MADI formats... but maybe someday hah.

I'm actually looking at the Midas 32C as a rack mount mixer for my monitor rig. Emphasis on form factor and mobility - 1U and iPad controllable.
this largely depends on the market you're in but also country/area/level: in the consumer maket (with huge amouts of evil b's x-desks in use), aes50 is quite popular, in the live sr market way less, same for corporate and close to non-existent in broadcasting. i'd say that no format currently holds more than ca. 30-40%.

wouldn't using analog splits be a better option for you anyway?
Old 9th November 2020 | Show parent
  #14
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by deedeeyeah View Post

wouldn't using analog splits be a better option for you anyway?
Yes, this would be the best option.
Old 11th November 2020
  #15
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MIKEHARRIS's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
i picked up a Multiverter to demo to our client...in town to mix the Latin Grammys. the main desk is a SSL and i am unsure if they utilize MADI in Digico style...we are including the adapter needed if so.
Ferrofish makes Dante >>madi..adat optical..aes format converters...not the Swiss Army Knife like the Appsys...but a third the price.
Old 12th November 2020 | Show parent
  #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deedeeyeah View Post
wouldn't using analog splits be a better option for you anyway?
So my thought here is:

Stage mic XLRs -> Digital stage box with 2 Dante ethernet ports -> 2 Cat6 cables; one running to M32C in monitor world and one to FOH console.

FOH gets to do what they want with the stage box outputs and the band gets to hear what they want through their IEM rig. Only need a few Cat6 cords, no need to lug around 2 analog snakes everywhere for primary and backup purposes.
Old 12th November 2020 | Show parent
  #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by topgearbk View Post
So my thought here is:

Stage mic XLRs -> Digital stage box with 2 Dante ethernet ports -> 2 Cat6 cables; one running to M32C in monitor world and one to FOH console.

FOH gets to do what they want with the stage box outputs and the band gets to hear what they want through their IEM rig. Only need a few Cat6 cords, no need to lug around 2 analog snakes everywhere for primary and backup purposes.
not sure you were getting my point:

the idea behind using analog splits is NOT to use analog snakes but to split signals on the stage, feed one split to the mon stage rack (or directly into the monitor desk), another split to the foh stage rack (and have a third split available which would feed to the broadcast truck's stage rack).

what format and what cables these desk and stage racks are using is irrelevant - what's important though is that every tech can use his/her own gain settings.

two 1hu patchbays with 32 xlr sockets and 64 or 96 xlr fan outs shouldn't break your bank or back either...
Old 21st November 2020
  #18
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🎧 15 years
The DN9652 has 2 slots, so you can use a madi and a dante card

https://www.klarkteknik.com/product....odelCode=P0AFU
Old 21st November 2020 | Show parent
  #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tenderboy View Post
The DN9652 has 2 slots, so you can use a madi and a dante card
...but no aes50 then (which is limited to 48 channels btw).
Old 21st November 2020 | Show parent
  #20
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🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by deedeeyeah View Post
...but no aes50 then (which is limited to 48 channels btw).
Ah, you're right. I had somehow thought its for two network cards to AES50 (as changing the card in the 9650 or 9652 is a real pita. Don't know why they made it so that you have to remove the whole chasis with something like 20 screws and then the card itself has to be pushed in in a way that I had the fear of breaking it) instead if the way cards can be changed in most mixers.
I would have even bought a dante card next to the madi if it would have been easier to change.

Last edited by tenderboy; 21st November 2020 at 08:03 PM..
Old 21st November 2020 | Show parent
  #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tenderboy View Post
(...) changing the card in the 9650 or 9652 is a real pita. Don't know why they made it so that you have to remove the whole chasis with something like 20 screws and then the card itself has to be pushed in in a way that I had the fear of breaking it) instead if the way cards can be changed in most mixers.
I would have even bought a dante card next to the madi if it would have been easier to change.
how stupid is that?! - considering this design fault, i feel lucky i can very easily swap cards with my studer i/o-system but they haven't got aes50 cards (for good reason: it's just another unnecessary format)...

...but the real pain starts once you get into high-channel, multiple formats + sampling rate conversion?! this silly 'format war' needs to end - long live madi! :-)
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