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Large format live sound analog console.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #1
Lives for gear
 

Large format live sound analog console.

Yesterday I had the choice between two large format consoles, one digital and the other analog and I chose the analog console, a Midas H3000 with a couple of racks of outboard. Mostly Drawmer gates and compressors, BSS dynamic EQ, and Yamaha and TC efx units.

I hadn’t used a boat like this in a long time (more than a year), and apart from the fact that all the gear was in mint condition and everything worked like it just came out of the factory, this was a straight up and down rock and roll gig. No console gymnastics, no complex setups or moves etc, so I chose the analog console. The console was big, very wide and deep...it (and the rack) ate up a lot of space and I needed to use the custom platform to reach all the way up top comfortably, but what a joy to have everything spread out in front of me.

Even with the rack behind me it was still really nice to have one function per knob, fader and button, and to be able to see everything at a glance...the speed of operation alone made up for any inconveniences.
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Large format live sound analog console.-2ccf75f1-c3c5-4e02-a119-0aa28ac5031d.jpg   Large format live sound analog console.-abaad6ce-0765-4c92-b97a-c8afe8111d6f.jpg   Large format live sound analog console.-d0274d41-4986-4c83-8ab8-acb930cf2c80.jpg   Large format live sound analog console.-3f1871f3-a86a-49bd-a9fd-4f7867eacd7e.jpg   Large format live sound analog console.-1f3d8636-a196-4fa0-a825-5a3981aec273.jpg  

Old 4 weeks ago
  #2
Gear Head
 

Nice! My first experience with a Heritage was at a 'mega-church' here (56 buckets). I loved the clear acrylic clipboard that slid along rails on the top of the console, not to mention the headroom!
Old 4 weeks ago
  #3
Lives for gear
 

yeah!

although i went digital (also for live mixing) when the dm2000 came out, i enjoyed the transition time quite a lot when for some years, the desk du jour once was digital, then analog again, depending on venue or festival (or tour budget)...

...before most analog desks (at least around here) got swept away by the pm5d.

out of nostalghia (and 'cause i got it for close to nothing), i bought a 40-channel pm3500 three years ago - i don't get to use it more than once a year but it's always a pleasure to work with!

[besides the weight of the desk, the power supplies and the sideracks - i almost forgot about that! and it took me a minute to locate the easy-tilt in the warehouse last year :-)]

___


as we speak of it, i'm gearing up for an event which will require an insane amount of inputs which i couldn't (and wouldn't wanna) do with analog gear... - so: what's been the largest analog setup you got to use?
Old 4 weeks ago
  #4
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by samuraisoundman View Post
Nice! My first experience with a Heritage was at a 'mega-church' here (56 buckets). I loved the clear acrylic clipboard that slid along rails on the top of the console, not to mention the headroom!
Headroom for days and days. I know a lot of people consider the H3000 to be the pinnacle of large-format, analog, live consoles but my personal favorites are the ATI Paragon ll and the Midas XL4.

The Cadav J type, the Soundcraft series 5...the best analog console they ever made in my opinion and the Crest century or LMX gets special mention.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #5
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by deedeeyeah View Post
what's been the largest analog setup you got to use?
Two XL 4s and a lot of outboard. The two consoles went into A custom summing box and all the racks and consoles had color coded multi-pin connectors etc.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #6
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by Samc View Post
Headroom for days and days.
The H3000 has adequate, but less, headroom than many other consoles. It is +21 dBu max:
http://www.hasproaudio.com/wp-conten...as%20H3000.pdf

Many consoles and gear are +24 dBu max.

It’s not going to make much of a difference at the show, but it’s worth keeping in mind that when it comes to headroom, a lot of gear is exactly the same, and more likely some other quality is being described.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #7
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by brew View Post
The H3000 has adequate, but less, headroom than many other consoles. It is +21 dBu max:
http://www.hasproaudio.com/wp-conten...as%20H3000.pdf

Many consoles and gear are +24 dBu max.

It’s not going to make much of a difference at the show, but it’s worth keeping in mind that when it comes to headroom, a lot of gear is exactly the same, and more likely some other quality is being described.
Yes, but....in practical terms it is very hard to hit the limit of this console, you would have to do something really outrageous or stupid...probably because you had that headroom at every stage. I used a console by ADT Audio Germany that had a headroom of 30dbu from input to output and low noise figures that was better than most of the best studio consoles at the time. The console had processing on every channel including on all the audio masters etc, the project was abandoned when it became clear that even the high end, large format analog consoles would not survive the onslaught of digital technology.

A shame really, the sound and operation of the ADT console was next level.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #8
Lives for gear
 

'headroom' is kinda loose term and doesn't necessarily equal max. output before clipping (and with analog gear, even some amount of clipping can result in a nice sound, mostly depending on the transformers). also, the h3000's often got fed into a dn370, dn1248 and/or xl88 with the same max. i/o capacity so it was a pretty good match (while many amps around that time could not take as much)...

there's no point in judging a desk (and subsequent or any other gear btw) by it's nominal max. i/o capacity before clipping - it is useful for level matching though.



[and before someone starts crying: i got an mci jh-536 which can be driven on internal 35V rails (which is twice as much or more than most other desks): now THAT does affects headroom! (meaning you can do silly things without much risk of overdriving the desk - subsequent gear however must get padded down even if it can take in rather high levels of +27dBu)!]

Last edited by deedeeyeah; 4 weeks ago at 11:45 AM.. Reason: typo
Old 4 weeks ago
  #9
Lives for gear
 
studjo's Avatar
Great choice Sam - you know I still think not many digital consoles can rival or come even close to the sound of a Midas H3000 or XL4.

I'm in the middle of playing a musical and the poor guy at FOH has one of those Berhinger/Midas things with nowhere near enough faders to mix that show. I still can't grasp that so many young engineers don't realize that when it comes to live work speed is everything...
Old 4 weeks ago
  #10
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by deedeeyeah View Post
[and before someone starts crying: i got an mci jh-536 with can be driven on internal 35V rails (which is twice as much or more than most other desks): now THAT does affects headroom! (meaning you can do silly things without much risk of overdriving the desk - subsequent gear however must get padded down even if can take in rather high levels of +27dBu)!]
This is the rub, this is something I learned about from Gerd at ADT....21dBu from input to output will perform and sound different from 24dBu at the input only...and as you’ve said, the problem is then how to match it with the input of the gear that is patched after it without choking the output of the console.

ADT came up with a clever, (but expensive) work around that greatly added to the weight and cost of the console that most people will unfortunately never get to experience.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #11
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Samc View Post
This is the rub, this is something I learned about from Gerd at ADT....21dBu from input to output will perform and sound different from 24dBu at the input only...and as you’ve said, the problem is then how to match it with the input of the gear that is patched after it without choking the output of the console.

ADT came up with a clever, (but expensive) work around that greatly added to the weight and cost of the console that most people will unfortunately never get to experience.
i never got to work on an adt desk, just some outboard (which was brilliant!) - i hope you'll keep (and occasionally get to use) your adt gear?!

pls add a pic of some of it - for the fun if it, in true gz fashion :-)



p.s. the use of mostly class A gear in the studio shows up on the monthly bill for electricity...
Old 4 weeks ago
  #12
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by studjo View Post
Great choice Sam - you know I still think not many digital consoles can rival or come even close to the sound of a Midas H3000 or XL4.

I'm in the middle of playing a musical and the poor guy at FOH has one of those Berhinger/Midas things with nowhere near enough faders to mix that show. I still can't grasp that so many young engineers don't realize that when it comes to live work speed is everything...
I agree, and I’ll take this over the alternative when possible, but, the convenience part of the equation drives things in this particular case, and is therefore very important to the powers that be. The convenience of a smaller digital console with more possibilities can result in big savings for all concerned....less experienced and knowledgeable crew, no expensive copper snakes and interconnects and more floor space for more people. In an arena, stadium or big festival you could argue against it, but that will be a tough nut to argue against in a 650 place club.

My recent adventure with the H3000 is something that most bands, productions and venues can’t afford...and fortunately for us, all this gear was already owned by the venue and they have a staff of technicians who know how to setup and operate it efficiently, otherwise this would not have happened.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #13
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by deedeeyeah View Post
i never got to work on an adt desk, just some outboard (which was brilliant!) - i hope you'll keep (and occasionally get to use) your adt gear?!

pls add a pic of some of it - for the fun if it, in true gz fashion :-)

p.s. the use of mostly class A gear in the studio shows up on the monthly bill for electricity...
Yes, but you save on your heating bill in the winter...

And just because you asked...this is only some of the stuff, and it should be noted that none of the ADT gear have ever needed to be repaired including the very first Toolbox channel strip that was dropped from a height of 2 meters while working just to show how well built they are. Headroom in the channel strips are 30dBu from input to output and 32dBu for the console and V700 modules...Gerd is manic about headroom, low noise and electronic interference etc. so all the racks and modules have purpose built, external power supplies....

Give me a pure signal and I can find ways to bend and twist to sound exactly how I want instead of trying to undo some colored sound that may not work for the situation. But alas, this gear is heavy and thus very expensive to bring on the road these days, most tours just can’t afford to pay to bring this gear on the road in an appropriate way. A lighter and cheaper alternative is the TC Gold Channel, and even then I’m not going to carry more than four boxes on the road.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #14
Lives for gear
 

I’m on the road and these are a few of the photos I can send:
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Large format live sound analog console.-27fdd33e-e674-46f5-af24-ccb843508259.jpg   Large format live sound analog console.-7b87f630-fdfd-47bd-922a-89c639923741.jpg   Large format live sound analog console.-146a49b8-580e-466f-8956-d874e1ffb8c2.jpg   Large format live sound analog console.-8acb841d-cb56-4063-917c-bc718ce5b2c8.jpg   Large format live sound analog console.-bd72c341-939b-4362-99ad-a8c6ad5a3d79.jpg  

Large format live sound analog console.-27f3e3bc-5802-4aa4-8571-8ef6f756e64f.jpg  
Old 4 weeks ago
  #15
Lives for gear
 

wow!
Old 4 weeks ago
  #16
Lives for gear
 

Should point out that this an inline console with a split EQ and independent inserts for the long and short fader paths. Every input channel on the console including the 8 stereo input channels and the 8 stereo returns, stereo inject etc and all the master outs etc have EQ and dynamics. Some of the processing is just insane...elliptical EQ, stereo widening etc.

I have all the missing channels Racked by ADT in stereo Pairs with separate power supplies and all the inputs (including the small fader paths) and processing working which allows me To either use them independently or as a remote input with the console. If I want I can put them back into the console in a matter of minutes with full functionality. I used to carry them and the V700 modules with me when recording in another location. What’s really good is that ADT is really a custom shop and will accommodate requests like this.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #17
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Samc View Post
Should point out that this an inline console with a split EQ and independent inserts for the long and short fader paths. Every input channel on the console including the 8 stereo input channels and the 8 stereo returns, stereo inject etc and all the master outs etc have EQ and dynamics. Some of the processing is just insane...elliptical EQ, stereo widening etc.

I have all the missing channels Racked by ADT in stereo Pairs with separate power supplies and all the inputs (including the small fader paths) and processing working which allows me To either use them independently or as a remote input with the console. If I want I can put them back into the console in a matter of minutes with full functionality. I used to carry them and the V700 modules with me when recording in another location. What’s really good is that ADT is really a custom shop and will accommodate requests like this.
truly amazing in many ways - which is what sometimes makes me laugh (say when other folks muse about their favourite brand although they possibly never even came near the desk they are dreaming of but certainly have not had had a chance to compare it with something like an adt)...

...but also cry (that smaller companies such as adt are no more well-known)!

is this desk located in europe? would love to sit down on it and twist some knobs... - i shall bring along my digital desk for comparison!

and regarding tc: how do they last? - by now, i had to replace all psu's of all my tc gear (except the eq station and the m5000) from that time at least once...
Old 4 weeks ago
  #18
Lives for gear
 

Back to reality: today I have a Midas pro2C and a Martin system and great acoustics. The Heritage would be overkill in this room...because of its size of the system...console and racks.

I got drafted to conduct a master class with students from the local college who were interning at the venue. The class was about stage setup with emphasis on mic choice and placement.
Attached Thumbnails
Large format live sound analog console.-1024f80e-6fcc-4dab-9513-aa7d139aa8e3.jpg   Large format live sound analog console.-7a5db608-7ece-479d-88f9-e93e43e2921a.jpg   Large format live sound analog console.-baccdd6a-dc8a-4f18-a02b-668be0cbfddc.jpg  
Old 4 weeks ago
  #19
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by deedeeyeah View Post
truly amazing in many ways - which is what sometimes makes me laugh (say when other folks muse about their favourite brand although they possibly never even came near the desk they are dreaming of but certainly have not had had a chance to comoare it with something like an adt)...

...but also cry (that smaller companies such as adt are no more well-known)!

is this desk located in europe? would love to sit down on it and twist some konbs... - i shall bring along my digital desk for comparison!

and regarding tc: how do they last? - by now, i had to replace all psu's of all my tc gear (except the eq station and the m5000) from that time at least once...
You should see an hear their MAGNUM V3 console, the features, sound and the price would make you weep. The first thing I always tell people when they use the console for the first time is to make sure they know what they want to do before they start adjusting anything, and a little goes a long way....there’s a lot of rope to hang yourself with and it’s very easy to get lost in all that it allows.

The desk is in Europe, we can talk about it.

Never had problems with any of my TC gear, and I have more than a few pieces...knocks on wood...even after years of hard use.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #20
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studjo's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Samc View Post
Back to reality: today I have a Midas pro2C and a Martin system and great acoustics. The Heritage would be overkill in this room...because of its size of the system...console and racks.

I got drafted to conduct a master class with students from the local college who were interning at the venue. The class was about stage setup with emphasis on mic choice and placement.

I really like the Midas Pro Series - those consoles brought the fun back in live mixing for me. I'd prefer a Meyer Rig over a Martin but you gotta do what you gotta do
Looks like you're having fun out there!
Old 4 weeks ago
  #21
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by Samc View Post
Yesterday I had the choice between two large format consoles, one digital and the other analog and I chose the analog console, a Midas H3000 with a couple of racks of outboard. Mostly Drawmer gates and compressors, BSS dynamic EQ, and Yamaha and TC efx units.

I hadn’t used a boat like this in a long time (more than a year), and apart from the fact that all the gear was in mint condition and everything worked like it just came out of the factory, this was a straight up and down rock and roll gig. No console gymnastics, no complex setups or moves etc, so I chose the analog console. The console was big, very wide and deep...it (and the rack) ate up a lot of space and I needed to use the custom platform to reach all the way up top comfortably, but what a joy to have everything spread out in front of me.

Even with the rack behind me it was still really nice to have one function per knob, fader and button, and to be able to see everything at a glance...the speed of operation alone made up for any inconveniences.
Hehe, I know this feeling. It's like meeting an old friend after a long time.
The console in the pics is a H2000, though.

It's funny when you are on digital desks every day and you somewhat forget about all the things that bothered you when the transition to digital started.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #22
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jude's Avatar
 

Love the heritage 3k, and it's up there as my favourite desk to mix on. Good to see you got all the good outboard to go with it!

I'd love to see the 3k with the Midas compressor module built in, it would be awesome for me and save a whole rack I'd have to take around (I realise it will never happen though!)
Old 4 weeks ago
  #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jude View Post
Love the heritage 3k, and it's up there as my favourite desk to mix on. Good to see you got all the good outboard to go with it!

I'd love to see the 3k with the Midas compressor module built in, it would be awesome for me and save a whole rack I'd have to take around (I realise it will never happen though!)
but there was a version with built-in modules (into the meter bridge): i only recall mixing once on such a desk and very vaguely that the desk was labelled h4000...
Old 4 weeks ago
  #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deedeeyeah View Post
but there was a version with built-in modules (into the meter bridge): i only recall mixing once on such a desk and very vaguely that the desk was labelled h4000...
I really didn’t like that console, and a lot of other people didn’t like it too, that’s why you didn’t see a lot of them. The idea was to build a dual use console for FOH and monitors, and it flopped miserably.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #25
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by deedeeyeah View Post
but there was a version with built-in modules (into the meter bridge): i only recall mixing once on such a desk and very vaguely that the desk was labelled h4000...
On H4000 the modules are just the additional aux sends.
Soundcraft Europa had a gate on every channel.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #26
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ah okay, didn't remember that!

i saw no point in using the h3000 over the h2000: unless mixing monitors, i had no need for this many auxes.

...and gates to this day i don't use - what a waste of resources!
Old 4 weeks ago
  #27
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by deedeeyeah View Post
ah okay, didn't remember that!

i saw no point in using the h3000 over the h2000: unless mixing monitors, i had no need for this many auxes.

...and gates to this day i don't use - what a waste of resources!
Yes, the 2000 is IMO also easier to use with a more traditional aux and sub group configuration.

Hehe, I never quite underatood the gate thing. I mean, I use gates if necessary but not on every channel, actually on very few channels. I'd much prefer having compressors on board. Maybe their thinking was that the engineers are more picky about compressors and want different units for different sources while they could still get on with a decent gate. Huge drum kits were probably more popular back then, too.
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