The No.1 Website for Pro Audio
Turning up BAD sounding music...uhg
Old 4 days ago
  #1
Lives for gear
 

Turning up BAD sounding music...uhg

So there is a Christian womens ministry I do sound for 1 time a month and they went from having live music, to just singers with background, to now playback music from youtube to worship to.

I find myself having to turn up BAD sounding tracks from youtube to the loud 90-95DBa levels that they want.

I have to literally force myself to turn up bad sounding music, I wonder if there is any trick to dealing with such a thing as a sound person. Maybe I'll just put my monitoring headphones on next time to limit what I hear.

As a sound person that loves mixing good sounding live groups I find it hard to switch gears and give this group crappy sounding playback music....

Any of ya'll have stories where you were forced to give the customer what they want (Please no NSFW stories, haha).
Old 4 days ago
  #2
Lives for gear
 

I had an opposite experience 30 years ago with a high school production of selections from "Phantom of the Opera". The tracks were beautiful but one of the soloists couldn't find pitch if her life depended upon it. The music director wanted to know why the girls vocal was barely audible in the recording: and I reluctantly explained if I turned it up the world would know exactly why. I was donating my time and gear to record the show so I exercised the subject liberties.
I have extensive experience dealing with pre-recorded tracks in both the studio and live performance. Most gospel music performed today features singers working with either pro custom or pre-recorded "Karaoke type" tracks. Either way the most important fundamental guide line is to be certain the sonic focus of the mix to be linear with the on stage performer: unless the performers are a dumpster fire.
Hugh
Old 4 days ago
  #3
Lives for gear
 
RawDepth's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by DownTheLine View Post
So there is a Christian womens ministry I do sound for 1 time a month and they went from having live music, to just singers with background, to now playback music from youtube to worship to.

I find myself having to turn up BAD sounding tracks from youtube to the loud 90-95DBa levels that they want.

I have to literally force myself to turn up bad sounding music, I wonder if there is any trick to dealing with such a thing as a sound person. Maybe I'll just put my monitoring headphones on next time to limit what I hear.

As a sound person that loves mixing good sounding live groups I find it hard to switch gears and give this group crappy sounding playback music....

Any of ya'll have stories where you were forced to give the customer what they want (Please no NSFW stories, haha).
Are you ripping music from YouTube? Can't the church purchase better copies from the rightful owner of the music?
Old 4 days ago
  #4
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by RawDepth View Post
Are you ripping music from YouTube? Can't the church purchase better copies from the rightful owner of the music?
All I am for this ministry is the person who comes in and runs sound.

With many ministries it is a catch 22. If I start doing more, they will expect it all the time and will count on it, so you have to roll with what you get many times.

Yes, they are pulling from youtube. SOME of the youtube tracks sound decent others are just insanely bad sounding

A current trend I am seeing in local churches is that all the singers/musicians are ending up in bigger churches and smaller churches are stuck playing lyric videos off YouTube with no singers or a few singers onstage.

A friend taught me a trick on turning up out of key singers, just cut around 3k and then you can turn them up loud enough to be heard but not a distraction. I use it often.
Old 3 days ago
  #5
Lives for gear
 

Is this legal and/or even ethical?

AN old Jamaican proverb that applies here: if you come to drink milk, don't count the cows. You can always quit if it bothers you that much.

Last edited by Samc; 2 days ago at 07:39 PM..
Old 2 days ago
  #6
Lives for gear
 

gospel-karaoke-dj: what a job!
not getting why you haven't quit long ago...
Old 2 days ago
  #8
Lives for gear
 

Just as I thought, from one of the articles above:

Using YouTube in church

Quote:
Put simply, YouTube videos can be shown in your church provided the video is on an official channel and you have permission from the copyright owner.

YouTube’s terms of service specifies that content on the site should only be accessed for “personal, non-commercial use” (5.L.) except where “YouTube or the respective licensors [the copyright owner] of the content” has given “prior written consent” (5.M.).
Not all videos uploaded to YouTube have been done so by, or with the permission of, the copyright owner or licensor. With a staggering 400 hours of video being uploaded every minute, YouTube simply cannot control or police everything that is added to the site. It’s likely that many videos on YouTube infringe copyright, either accidentally or deliberately.

If the content has been uploaded by an official source, the permission you need to show it may be obtained in a number of ways…
Old 2 days ago
  #9
Lives for gear
 

Thanks, I'm aware of both those articles. I've heard being in a well deigned room with reflective clouds overhead to support singing is awesome but I've never neem in such a space.
Old 2 days ago
  #10
Lives for gear
Churches can kill off singing in their congregations in a variety of self defeating ways. One way is to play awful tracks really loudly so no one even wants to sing. Pretty soon, the good singers will go somewhere else.
Old 2 days ago
  #11
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by deedeeyeah View Post
gospel-karaoke-dj: what a job!
not getting why you haven't quit long ago...
One issue is that it's only 1 time a month, if it was more frequent then It would push me to sit down and go over a game plan for better sounding playback.

The other issue is it might just be me, bad sounding music might be perfectly fine for the group there.

I just wish there was a plug in or outboard gear that could take bad sounded horribly compressed music from youtube and make it sound good
Old 2 days ago
  #12
Lives for gear
 

It seems like the desire to use Internet video in a presentation context is only increasing . . . it's becoming more and more prevalent in corporate/conference settings as well, even if it's just in parts of a keynote and all of the live music and oratory presentation is at a professional level. You of course need to insulate yourself from the obvious copyright concerns in your written or de-facto relationship with the organization, and if they want to live-stream from the Internet at showtime, then drill into their heads with a sledgehammer the possibility/consequences of connection dropouts.

In dealing strictly with the audio quality issues . . . I've found the dynamic EQ and multi-band compression options on Digico SD boards to be very useful for polishing up some pretty bad material. But when I have to work quickly with a less familiar board or I'm using my analog rig (yes, they still exist), my usual method is for standard compression with aggressive side-chain equalization -- with some of these events, it's not unusual for me to be handed a thumb-drive of a video used in the next guy's speech, and have to prepare for it while the current speaker is still making their presentation.

Here, I keep playback audio routed to a second pair of board channels, summed to a group that feeds only the side-chains of a fast analog limiter (a Valley Dynamite or pair of 440s in my case), which itself is in the inserts of the channels that route playback audio to FOH. I can then pre-run the video and solo the side-chain channels in the cans, and aggressively boost the EQ to overly accentuate the really obnoxious stuff. I'll also get an idea of what general EQ settings I might want to transfer to the FOH channels. Come run-time, I can adjust the overall level with one hand on the FOH channel faders, and how hard it's hitting the compressor with the sidechain group fader. This technique has always allowed me to get something pretty stomachable (and frequently quite nice) settled within two, maybe three seconds.
Old 2 days ago
  #13
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by DownTheLine View Post
As a sound person that loves mixing good sounding live groups I find it hard to switch gears and give this group crappy sounding playback music....
It may not be as bad as you think.

Sadly, we have developed a generation of people who think that crappy compressed audio on crappy headphones/earbuds is the norm. So they're probably not even noticing the problem.

What I've never been able to discover is whether such people have an epiphany when they hear high quality audio reproduced well - or if it sounds bad to them as it's not what they're used to...
Old 2 days ago
  #14
Lives for gear
 

Its the unethical aspect of this that disturb me most...who cares about what we can do to make it sound better when churches are actively ripping off people's copyright?!?!

Here is something to consider, some of these videos probably sound awful because the creators don't make enough money for their efforts to afford better productions....No nice acoustically correct rooms, no nice gear and no competent people to operate the ****ty gear they have, guess why, I wonder.

If people were actually paying for the service I could understand the complaints...Priorities.
Old 2 days ago
  #15
Gear Maniac
 

It happens all the time in any kind of situation.
Usually the first time I encounter this type of clients, it goes with what they have.
When they come back the second time, I offer myself to provide the tracks they need.
They're happy, you're happy.

Probably they just don't know any better. They don't realize it sounds different, they don't know how to download music, etc...
Old 2 days ago
  #16
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Samc View Post
Its the unethical aspect of this that disturb me most...who cares about what we can do to make it sound better when churches are actively ripping off people's copyright?!?!

Here is something to consider, some of these videos probably sound awful because the creators don't make enough money for their efforts to afford better productions....No nice acoustically correct rooms, no nice gear and no competent people to operate the ****ty gear they have, guess why, I wonder.

If people were actually paying for the service I could understand the complaints...Priorities.

The churches have many different CCLI licenses for everything from community worship use to streaming.
Actually a LOT of the bigger churches where these videos are coming from do have multi million dollar studios on there premises. I talked to a friend of mine who is doing the design for a local mega church's studio and many of these local churches own the properties and don't have to worry about making income from the studio, it's more a ministry tool.

But your right about "skilled operators". On the other hand, The church I attended this week hired a well know sound engineer to come "Set things up" "his way" and it sounded SO BAD to me and my friends.

This well known person sets things up with the most squashed and distorted sounding mix but that is what many church pastors/worship leaders want.

I heard he puts MANY compressors on each vocal channel to completely squash them. The only things that sounded dynamic to me were guitars. I will try and get a picture of the FX rack/plug ins the "pro" set up on the vocal channels next Sunday. I was told it was 4 compressors, stacked, including distressor plug in.
Old 2 days ago
  #17
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by DownTheLine View Post
You NEED TO QUIT ASSUMING THINGS.
This is rich coming from you, considering your recent claims in another thread....

Quote:
The churches have many different CCLI licenses for everything from community worship use to streaming SO QUIT ASSUMING anyone is getting ripped off.
ALL the churches (including the one you work for) have permission from the copyright owners to stream the videos they use? You know that they also need special permission to show/play the videos in conjunction with a live performance too right? I'm also sure you know that in most (but not all) cases The copyright owner will send a copy of the video so you won't playing the crappy compressed video on Youtube when they give permission.

Last edited by Samc; 2 days ago at 10:41 PM..
Old 2 days ago
  #18
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by DownTheLine View Post
The churches have many different CCLI licenses for everything from community worship use to streaming.
Actually a LOT of the bigger churches where these videos are coming from do have multi million dollar studios on there premises. I talked to a friend of mine who is doing the design for a local mega church's studio and many of these local churches own the properties and don't have to worry about making income from the studio, it's more a ministry tool.

But your right about "skilled operators". On the other hand, The church I attended this week hired a well know sound engineer to come "Set things up" "his way" and it sounded SO BAD to me and my friends.

This well known person sets things up with the most squashed and distorted sounding mix but that is what many church pastors/worship leaders want.

I heard he puts MANY compressors on each vocal channel to completely squash them. The only things that sounded dynamic to me were guitars. I will try and get a picture of the FX rack/plug ins the "pro" set up on the vocal channels next Sunday. I was told it was 4 compressors, stacked, including distressor plug in.
I made no reference to "skilled operators" as this and almost everything else in your post have nothing to do with the premise and content of my post.

Apparently this is a widespread practice, and the question is: Do all, most or even some churches have permission from the copyright owners to play their Youtube videos in church, and do they have permission to do so in conjunction with a live performance? If the answer is no, then crappy sound is the least of the problems here in my opinion, and I'm concerned because I make my living from the production of music in various forms.
Old 1 day ago
  #19
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Samc View Post
Apparently this is a widespread practice, and the question is: Do all, most or even some churches have permission from the copyright owners to play their Youtube videos in church, and do they have permission to do so in conjunction with a live performance? If the answer is no, then crappy sound is the least of the problems here in my opinion, and I'm concerned because I make my living from the production of music in various forms.
Some churches are strong in administrative procedure, and do indeed pay and have the proper copyright clearance for the intellectual property they present in worship. Others do whatever they want in complete ignorance, or with wanton disregard, in all manners of copyright infringement. I haven't worked with enough churches to have any sort of idea of the distribution on this spectrum . . . but it doesn't seem to correlate with how professional the rest of their operations may be, or how unpalatable their productions are to sit through.

There are also some special provisions in licensing agreements regarding use "in worship", and it can be pretty murky as far as Internet use is concerned. One church I worked with for a Christmas production had their Internet live-stream covered under their "worship" allowances, but has to pay additionally for a license for the same program to be broadcast on radio and TV. The radio and TV programs can be legally taped and broadcast at another time, but the live-stream can't be available for anything other than live viewing . . . i.e. if it's available on-demand then this is considered reproduction. The main consideration here was for written music copyright . . . but the licensing documents I skimmed through seemed to cover images and video clips as well.

Churches aside, there are also some peculiarities in an academic context. For example, a college professor can use material pretty freely if it's in an "educational" setting, but if they adapt the lecture for presentation in a non-university venue then using the same images or videos usually requires clearance. This might even apply to content they've created, depending on who owns the license and their own contractual relationship with them (i.e. the touring National Geographic lecture series comes to mind).

Even on live music concerts, there's the issue of pre-/post-show playback . . . and it seems that in recent years people are increasingly ignorant of the problem of simply whipping out an iPhone and putting up some Spotify. I consider it imperative to have written correspondence on how this will be handled, even for a small gig with a local band.

The bottom line is that whenever playback is part of what you're doing, you of course can't be up on all the legal and licensing nuances . . . but you can't automatically look away and assume it's Somebody Else's Problem. Don't do anything illegal, and make it clear to your employers that you won't . . . usually I find out pretty quickly whether it's a workable situation, or just another bullet point in a long list of why to stay away.
Old 1 day ago
  #20
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by kirkus View Post
The bottom line is that whenever playback is part of what you're doing, you of course can't be up on all the legal and licensing nuances . . . but you can't automatically look away and assume it's Somebody Else's Problem. Don't do anything illegal, and make it clear to your employers that you won't . . . usually I find out pretty quickly whether it's a workable situation, or just another bullet point in a long list of why to stay away.
Very good post...nuff respect.
Old 1 day ago
  #21
Lives for gear
 

Every church I have been to and involved with ALL had proper CCLI licenses for the stuff they do. One church wanted to change a lyric from "reckless love" to something else, contacted bethel, bethel refused, and the church decided not to sing that song rather than go against the owners wishes regarded it.

Many other churches refuse to stream worship because they don't have the proper CCLI license for streaming.
If there is "Widespread" copyright violation by churches it is not happening in northern California.
Old 1 day ago
  #22
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Samc View Post
I made no reference to "skilled operators" as this and almost everything else in your post have nothing to do with the premise and content of my post.
Last time I respond to you sam then your going on the ignore list.

YOU SAID

"No nice acoustically correct rooms, no nice gear and no competent people to operate the ****ty gear they have, guess why, I wonder."

A skilled operator IS THE SAME as a "competent person to operate gear"!
Old 1 day ago
  #23
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by DownTheLine View Post
Last time I respond to you sam then your going on the ignore list.
Really? I'm so distraught....

Quote:
YOU SAID

"No nice acoustically correct rooms, no nice gear and no competent people to operate the ****ty gear they have, guess why, I wonder."

A skilled operator IS THE SAME as a "competent person to operate gear"!
Reading comprehension dude...your response was out of context and totally irrelevant.

My comment was listing one possible reason why some content creators can't afford to produce high quality content, and you were jealous and badmouthing some guy who got a job you didn't or some foolishness.

Last edited by Samc; 1 day ago at 10:10 PM..
Old 1 day ago
  #24
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by DownTheLine View Post
Every church I have been to and involved with ALL had proper CCLI licenses for the stuff they do. One church wanted to change a lyric from "reckless love" to something else, contacted bethel, bethel refused, and the church decided not to sing that song rather than go against the owners wishes regarded it.

Many other churches refuse to stream worship because they don't have the proper CCLI license for streaming.
If there is "Widespread" copyright violation by churches it is not happening in northern California.
Here is what you get with a CCLI license:
"The CCLI Copyright License ensures your church is covered. Simply and legally. The Copyright License is tailored to your congregational singing activities and provides broad coverage for lyric storage, projections, song sheets, bulletin inserts, instrumental/vocal arrangements and service recordings. Optional rehearsal coverage enables duplication and sharing of commercial audio recordings and custom rehearsal tracks. Optional coverage is also available for streaming or podcasting recorded services."

This DOES NOT give a church the right to play a Youtube video with a live performance...You need written permission from the copyright holder for this. Go read about it.
Post Reply

Welcome to the Gearslutz Pro Audio Community!

Registration benefits include:
  • The ability to reply to and create new discussions
  • Access to members-only giveaways & competitions
  • Interact with VIP industry experts in our guest Q&As
  • Access to members-only sub forum discussions
  • Access to members-only Chat Room
  • Get INSTANT ACCESS to the world's best private pro audio Classifieds for only USD $20/year
  • Promote your eBay auctions and Reverb.com listings for free
  • Remove this message!
You need an account to post a reply. Create a username and password below and an account will be created and your post entered.


 
 
Slide to join now Processing…
Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Forum Jump
Forum Jump