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Quiet singer on stage with really loud singer
Old 2 weeks ago
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bushman View Post
Pete is an example of a guitarist who damaged his hearing (severe tinnitus and some hearing loss) from the decades he spent in front of his own very, very loud amps. I don’t begrudge him any fix he resorts to now.
Even if it looks like another church band.
While some of it may have been the amps, Pete admits that what really caused it was home recording - blasting his headphones. that is what caused tinnitus; the amps didn't help, but the top cabs were always dummies.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TimmyP1955 View Post
E935 or OM7 (maybe a PR35 - I have no experience, just hearsay).

IEMs with decent buds.
PR35 is great. It has a kind of a wild frequency response that may or may not make a singers sibilance worse.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #33
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Papanate's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tahoebrian5 View Post
Yes, different mics are definitely something we are looking into. She does stay pretty tight on the mic but I will mention it again and try to pay attention next practice.

Last time we did quiet down as much as possible but the drum set is setting the volume so we can only turn down so much. Going fully in-ear would be a great solution I think because we could all turn way down in the room, but that would require the rest of the band to actually change something. BTW, this is a metal band so playing quietly is not impossible but certainly doesn't come naturally.

I am mostly looking at helping the practice room for now as live is the sound guys problem and I will at least be getting in ears for her so she can hear herself.
IEM for at least your wife; and back the Loud Singers mic gain down till it matches your wife in volume. The Audix OM7 does really well in tight stage situations - it is HyperCardiod and will reject the surrounding audio extremely well. And depending on your wife's tone you could also try a Audio-Technica BP40 - it is a condenser Hypercardioid designed for Broadcast but I have had occasional success as a vocal microphone - the mic has a nice rise at 4Khz which cuts through band noise.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #34
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Shouldn't all you guys try to figure out the exact nature of the problem before you start offering gear changes and fixes...? There are at least a handful of important and relevant questions that nobody is asking before offering a fix to a problem they don't fully understand...What if the other singer does not want his voice lower in the mix, should he be forced?

How are IEMs going to help if her voice is not the loudest sound at the mic...and what is the loudest sound at her mic, anybody knows that? How does anybody here know what mic is best for a particular situation when you don't know anything about the situation, where is she standing in relation to the other musicians and the backline? Is she sharing her monitor(s) with another musician....? Solving complex problems requires critical thinking, not wild guessing, I could go on, but since "This aint problemslutz" I'll stop here.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #35
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GreenNeedle's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Samc View Post
Shouldn't all you guys try to figure out the exact nature of the problem before you start offering gear changes and fixes...? There are at least a handful of important and relevant questions that nobody is asking before offering a fix to a problem they don't fully understand...What if the other singer does not want his voice lower in the mix, should he be forced?

How are IEMs going to help if her voice is not the loudest sound at the mic...and what is the loudest sound at her mic, anybody knows that? How does anybody here know what mic is best for a particular situation when you don't know anything about the situation, where is she standing in relation to the other musicians and the backline? Is she sharing her monitor(s) with another musician....? Solving complex problems requires critical thinking, not wild guessing, I could go on, but since "This aint problemslutz" I'll stop here.
Why don’t you just take over from here then boss. Go to it!
Old 2 weeks ago
  #36
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I think the advice given is the best in this case so far.
Better mic with more detail (yes it needs to fit the stage use best)
IEM

"They are both using SM58 mics currently. Part of the problem is we can’t seem to get enough gain out of her mic to bring her level up high enough. "

Now, unless the mic or pre amp it's going into is damaged then there should be more than enough gain to get an sm58 up to full output, and full output should be enough to supply any monitoring chain.

So recommending a different mic with more detail is surely the first logical step here. SM58 are not know for detail or sensitivity in picking up subtle details. Having a mic with more detail and a different sound will help the singers hear each other and themselves better. Sam is right about needing to know where she usually stands in regard to stage monitors/loud instruments in order to pick the best polar pattern etc.

1. Where does everybody stand on stage?
2. Where do people gather around stage monitors usually and at practice?
3. Has your wife had her hearing tested?
4. What is the normal stage SPL at practice and gig?
5. Does your wife get her own monitor and monitor mix at practice and gig?
6. Does you wife sing very close to the mic?
7. Do you cut back on proximity effect with HPF to clean up the sound?
8. Do you apply EQ to your wife's mic? EQ that she can hear in the monitors?

Even after getting the answers to all these necessary questions I am pretty sure the answer will involve a better mic and IEM with her own unique feed.

The worst case scenario is if your using an SM58 with no eq and no HPF.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #37
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It was already stated that she is on top of the mic...if she's not significantly louder than the stage wash how will a new/different mic and IEMs help pray tell? Even the mic with the tightest pattern won't magically get rid of all bleed, and if she can't be heard above the din something is really amiss. EQ and HPF will only help if the noise is above or below the vocal range...is that the case?

Is she standing next to, or in front of the drummer and/or another loud source, is she sharing a mix with someone else, does the person mixing monitors know what they're doing, etc, etc..... The stage could just be too loud for her and no amount of finagling is going to fix that unless she's isolated, or maybe she just need to stand in a different location. The thread title is: "Quiet singer on stage with really loud singer", the OP then talks about the drums being loud and therefore everyone else being loud to keep up. It seems everybody else/the stage in general is too loud for her....

Problem solving requires critical thinking based on the relevant facts of a situation, not guessing.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #38
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GreenNeedle's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Samc View Post
It was already stated that she is on top of the mic...if she's not significantly louder than the stage wash how will a new/different mic and IEMs help pray tell? Even the mic with the tightest pattern won't magically get rid of all bleed, and if she can't be heard above the din something is really amiss. EQ and HPF will only help if the noise is above or below the vocal range...is that the case?

Is she standing next to, or in front of the drummer and/or another loud source, is she sharing a mix with someone else, does the person mixing monitors know what they're doing, etc, etc..... The stage could just be too loud for her and no amount of finagling is going to fix that unless she's isolated, or maybe she just need to stand in a different location. The thread title is: "Quiet singer on stage with really loud singer", the OP then talks about the drums being loud and therefore everyone else being loud to keep up. It seems everybody else/the stage in general is too loud for her....

Problem solving requires critical thinking based on the relevant facts of a situation, not guessing.
You are so much better than everyone else here. What do you suggest?
How are you going to help the op?
Old 2 weeks ago
  #39
Gear Head
 

I appreciate all the responses. There are no good answers to some of the questions.. the situation changes so how the monitoring is setup etc is not a common factor. For now we are going to work with the PM9 mic and have her concentrate on staying in the sweet spot. I’ve also got a 500 rack with “channel strip” in progress so we can make adjustments while in the practice room. The PA is not ours so try to not start turning knobs but can request they set it flat so we can play with eq and gain etc. in the process of figuring out how to get in ears setup without breaking the bank.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #40
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GreenNeedle's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tahoebrian5 View Post
I appreciate all the responses. There are no good answers to some of the questions.. the situation changes so how the monitoring is setup etc is not a common factor. For now we are going to work with the PM9 mic and have her concentrate on staying in the sweet spot. I’ve also got a 500 rack with “channel strip” in progress so we can make adjustments while in the practice room. The PA is not ours so try to not start turning knobs but can request they set it flat so we can play with eq and gain etc. in the process of figuring out how to get in ears setup without breaking the bank.
The only thing you should be changing is the in ear system.
If your mic gain on the board is in fact all the way up you probably have a bad mic, cable or channel.
If her mic gain is not all the way up, she simply needs to sing louder and or closer to the mic or change bands.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tahoebrian5 View Post
I appreciate all the responses. There are no good answers to some of the questions.. the situation changes so how the monitoring is setup etc is not a common factor. For now we are going to work with the PM9 mic and have her concentrate on staying in the sweet spot. I’ve also got a 500 rack with “channel strip” in progress so we can make adjustments while in the practice room. The PA is not ours so try to not start turning knobs but can request they set it flat so we can play with eq and gain etc. in the process of figuring out how to get in ears setup without breaking the bank.
If you are playing metal and using amps on stage then it's probably pretty loud.
You should all probably be using in ears to hopefully protect hearing and fix some of these issues you are having.

If the other members don't care about protecting hearing then just get in ear set up for your wife.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tahoebrian5 View Post
I appreciate all the responses. There are no good answers to some of the questions.. the situation changes so how the monitoring is setup etc is not a common factor. For now we are going to work with the PM9 mic and have her concentrate on staying in the sweet spot. I’ve also got a 500 rack with “channel strip” in progress so we can make adjustments while in the practice room. The PA is not ours so try to not start turning knobs but can request they set it flat so we can play with eq and gain etc. in the process of figuring out how to get in ears setup without breaking the bank.
You should know that your channel strip is probably only going to cause more problems than it solves...You will not be able to increase overall level because the performance of the console pre is finite. If you hit the console input too hard it will distort, and if her voice is not the loudest sound coming into the mic, all you will do is bring up the noise. If that's the case, her in-ears will be noisy too....
Old 2 weeks ago
  #43
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Papanate's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Samc View Post
How are IEMs going to help if her voice is not the loudest sound at the mic...
Since with IEMs the microphone can achieve a more gain before feedback to compensate for the quieter singing voice .

Quote:
and what is the loudest sound at her mic, anybody knows that? I'll stop here.
Far be it for me to offer you an explanation that won't satiate your requirements - but I've been in thousands of those situations to know a good start point to fix these kinds of problems. And he gave a distinct clue - in that in live situations with a FOH A1 - the A1 could compensate. And that this is in a Practice Room. So naturally aside from everyone turning down and the loud singer singing quieter (which he said they weren't willing to do) if it were me I would get the quiet singer some IEMs so she doesn't blow her voice out trying to compete - which is another clue the OP gave in saying the his wife was blowing her voice out.

Yeah - I know - lame advice. Why don't you go to the OPs rehearsal space and fix it?
Old 2 weeks ago
  #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Samc View Post
How are IEMs going to help if her voice is not the loudest sound at the mic...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Papanate View Post
Since with IEMs the microphone can achieve a more gain before feedback to compensate for the quieter singing voice .
If her voice is not the loudest sound then all you're doing is amplifying the noise in her IEM...which will not help her.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tahoebrian5 View Post
There are two scenarios that we are dealing with, 1) in the practice room and 2) playing out live.
Quote:
Far be it for me to offer you an explanation that won't satiate your requirements - but I've been in thousands of those situations to know a good start point to fix these kinds of problems. And he gave a distinct clue - in that in live situations with a FOH A1 - the A1 could compensate. And that this is in a Practice Room. So naturally aside from everyone turning down and the loud singer singing quieter (which he said they weren't willing to do) if it were me I would get the quiet singer some IEMs so she doesn't blow her voice out trying to compete - which is another clue the OP gave in saying the his wife was blowing her voice out.
My only requirement is that if people want to dole out advise they do so intelligently, buying in-ears will not solve the problem if her voice is not the loudest sound in her microphone. Why is that so difficult to understand or figure out? Instead of being so hell bent on buying new stuff, people should be trying to figure out the cause of the problem first and it is clear from the quote above that she's have the problem in the rehearsals and during gigs.

Apparently nobody has even taken the time to listen to her vocal channel to know what's going on when she's singing, and the OP also indicated that the setup changes all the time, which is bizarre. But everybody wants to buy a new mic, IEM system and a 500 rack with a channel strip...to use in front of a Mackie mixer. Nobody finds it strange that they can't get the level of her vocals up to a listenable level...whats up with that?

Quote:
Yeah - I know - lame advice. Why don't you go to the OPs rehearsal space and fix it?
I think the better question is why don't you guys think carefully before giving out lame advise and suggestions?
Old 2 weeks ago
  #45
Gear Head
 

We aren’t the only band that practices in the room, plus occasional recording sessions things get tweaked, or sometimes random changes that are unexplained. Ya I know it’s weird.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Papanate View Post
So naturally aside from everyone turning down and the loud singer singing quieter (which he said they weren't willing to do)
Nobody said the loud singer should sing quieter. The advice was that his mic gain be lowered to better balance the quiet singer and then the overall monitor mix turned up so that he sounds just as loud to himself, but the monitor mix would have more of the quiet singer.
This band doesn’t seem to mix anything.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #47
Have you tried using compressor limiters on each mic? Sounds to me like they can't or won't sing ensemble. Have them practice without mics so that they can learn vocal control. Then have them learn mic control.

If her voice is "blown out" she should not be singing until it heals.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SingerSongWriter View Post
Have you tried using compressor limiters on each mic? Sounds to me like they can't or won't sing ensemble. Have them practice without mics so that they can learn vocal control. Then have them learn mic control.

If her voice is "blown out" she should not be singing until it heals.
Seriously?!?
Old 2 weeks ago
  #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Samc View Post
Seriously?!?
An acoustic metal set? That would be great.
Old 1 week ago
  #50
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Some thoughts:

- Quiet singers on loud stages are a problem. Loudest sound at the mic wins, and if the loudest sound at the mic isn't the singer, then what you've really got is a fader that should be labelled "backline mush".

- A fancy preamp won't help the above

- IEMs might help a little bit, if the stage monitors are contributing to the mush being picked up by the mic.

- A mic with a really narrow pickup area will help a bit, by reducing the level of stage mush going to the desk. I'd suggest an EV N/D967 for that. They don't sound great IMO, but offer feedback rejection like nothing else I've found.

Chris
Old 1 week ago
  #51
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A couple of things come to mind...the OP had said that the setup of the PA changes all the time and that they either can't or won't touch the console because it does not belong to them. How are they going to integrate an IEM system into the PA when they can't or won't even touch the EQ? Even then, what good is the IEM system if her voice is not the loudest sound in her microphone...apparently, NOBODY has taken the time and effort to listen to her vocal channel to know what's going on there.

Using a bad sounding mic just to possibly get a little more gain before feedback is like trying to fit a square peg into a round hole in my opinion, especially considering the reality of the situation they're facing. Feedback was never mentioned as a problem at any point, and they simply can't get the volume of her voice up enough to be heard, furthermore the OP claims that she is on her mic all the time and if that is the case, a (bad sounding) mic with a tighter pattern is hardly going to help....

THEY NEED TO FIND OUT WHY HER VOICE IS NOT CUTTING THROUGH BEFORE EMBARKING ON SOME HAIL MARY SCHEME TO SOLVE A PROBLEM THEY HAVEN'T FIGURED OUT! It really is that simple, plus, what happens if/when they solve the problem while using one setup, and the setup changes again?
Old 1 week ago
  #52
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I see your point, Sam.

I had made the assumption (yes, I know what happens when assumptions are made, but I'm pretty sure this one is solid) that the reason the vocal isn't coming through well is either because of feedback or spill from other instruments.

ie, it's either as loud as it can be already, or pushing the fader just brings additional mush.

The complete refusal to touch the desk vexes me.

It's 2020, and pretty much everyone has a reasonably good camera in their pocket.
Take a picture of the desk at the start of the rehearsal, make any adjustments needed during, and then restore previous settings at the end.

Chris
Old 1 week ago
  #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chris661 View Post
I see your point, Sam.

I had made the assumption (yes, I know what happens when assumptions are made, but I'm pretty sure this one is solid) that the reason the vocal isn't coming through well is either because of feedback or spill from other instruments.

ie, it's either as loud as it can be already, or pushing the fader just brings additional mush.
My initial conclusion was the same as yours until I started to take a careful look at the information provided.

Quote:
The complete refusal to touch the desk vexes me.

It's 2020, and pretty much everyone has a reasonably good camera in their pocket.
Take a picture of the desk at the start of the rehearsal, make any adjustments needed during, and then restore previous settings at the end.
They use whatever setup is provided and they do not make adjustments....I don't think they have an experienced sound person working with them which is the crux of the matter in my opinion.
Old 1 week ago
  #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Samc View Post
My initial conclusion was the same as yours until I started to take a careful look at the information provided.


They use whatever setup is provided and they do not make adjustments....I don't think they have an experienced sound person working with them which is the crux of the matter in my opinion.
Not having a sound person, or touching the board is more reason to get a mic with lower proximity effect, built in EQ for clarity/etc.

Eating an sm58 with no EQ is a recipe for disaster. Add in more singers eating sm58's and the low end must be the loudest thing in the vocals.
Old 1 week ago
  #55
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norfolk martin's Avatar
 

If I am reading the original post correctly. the problem is that the singer strains her voice because she can't hear herself onstage.

There should be no problem "getting enough gain " from an SM57. At first I assumed that the problems was of the common "maximum level before feedback" type, but if nothing is being moved on the board that can't be it

If I'm interpreting this right, the band is being placed in a totally ridiculous situation - the band "can't touch the console" and no-one is attempting to mix the performance or the monitors. if someone expects every band to play with exactly the same settings at the desk this is a bit ridiculous. In fact, its a lot ridiculous!

I've only ever encountered this situation in rural courthouses where someone set the mic levels 20 years ago, and the bailiff is afraid that , if anyone changes them, the system will never work again.

In the situation that seems to be described here , it may help to increase the signal to the board by a louder mic or a preamp/compressor but that would be rather like turning a doorknob by holding the knob and rotating the whole house around it. Sam C is absolutely correct about that. Different gear should not be a #1 solution if there's nothing unsuitable about the existing gear. All that's probably needed is for someone to turn a monitor feed up. If they can't do that, why is the venue hosting bands?
Old 1 week ago
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DownTheLine View Post
Not having a sound person, or touching the board is more reason to get a mic with lower proximity effect, built in EQ for clarity/etc.

Eating an sm58 with no EQ is a recipe for disaster. Add in more singers eating sm58's and the low end must be the loudest thing in the vocals.
It depends, we really shouldn't extrapolate, especially in a situation where hard info is not available...proximity effect is a function of both the microphone design and the voice, the amount and intensity of the effect is variable, it is not fixed.
Old 1 week ago
  #57
Gear Head
 

FWIW, in our current band we have a similar situation. Two strong vocalists, one male that is very quiet. For live gigs, his mike is so boosted it picks up the entire stage: guitar amps, drums, monitors, etc. It's a bitch during live gigs to mix properly, and it's a super-bitch at post-mix time.

So we're trying a bunch of different things, and it'll be a few weeks before we know what works and what doesn't.

There's this Audix microphone I have that's oriented to singing drummers. Sorry, can't remember the model number. Anything beyond 2 inches it tends to reject. Not an easy mike for vocalists to learn (get close!), but it solves the problem as you can boost the living heck out of it.

There are also headsets with mic booms in front that are super-good at rejecting unwanted signals. Let's just say they are an acquired taste.

Our other agenda is to work aggressively to minimize stage noise. Everyone but the drummer is going IEMs, which means much less monitor wash and feedback. Lead guitar player has his amp miked, next step is an acoustic enclosure so he can get his sound. We have a set of killer drum shields, but no one wants to bring them to a low-paying gig, and he's never going to play quietly, so that's a last resort.

Onwards!
Old 1 week ago
  #58
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GreenNeedle's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by cphollis View Post
FWIW, in our current band we have a similar situation. Two strong vocalists, one male that is very quiet. For live gigs, his mike is so boosted it picks up the entire stage: guitar amps, drums, monitors, etc. It's a bitch during live gigs to mix properly, and it's a super-bitch at post-mix time.

So we're trying a bunch of different things, and it'll be a few weeks before we know what works and what doesn't.

There's this Audix microphone I have that's oriented to singing drummers. Sorry, can't remember the model number. Anything beyond 2 inches it tends to reject. Not an easy mike for vocalists to learn (get close!), but it solves the problem as you can boost the living heck out of it.

There are also headsets with mic booms in front that are super-good at rejecting unwanted signals. Let's just say they are an acquired taste.

Our other agenda is to work aggressively to minimize stage noise. Everyone but the drummer is going IEMs, which means much less monitor wash and feedback. Lead guitar player has his amp miked, next step is an acoustic enclosure so he can get his sound. We have a set of killer drum shields, but no one wants to bring them to a low-paying gig, and he's never going to play quietly, so that's a last resort.

Onwards!
When i read this my first thought is why even try.
Survival of the fittest and all.
The equation just doesn’t work. Playing music live is a different animal than recording music.
Just because a taste has been developed for a certain contrast of quiet voice and aggressive band doesn’t mean physics will simply succumb to the desire.
Ever heard really really good bluegrass singers? They are loud as **** because “live” IS their venue.
In order for ‘live’ to really work and be meaningful TO THE AUDIENCE the players need to be able to perform for that medium. Live requires certain performance baselines to work well.

Manufacturers will I'm sure be trying to sell all kinds of garbage now with the latest ‘sing like a whisper’ craze to make it work live but it never will and even if it does get audible it’s intention will never come across the same as a recording. Different animals.
My strong opinion on the matter.
Old 1 week ago
  #59
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norfolk martin's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by GreenNeedle View Post
Just because a taste has been developed for a certain contrast of quiet voice and aggressive band doesn’t mean physics will simply succumb to the desire.
.
Yes. The number of times in my life I've tried to explain one physical fact to (usually) young bands. The microphone cannot tell the difference between vocals, guitar, and drums. If the guitar is louder than the voice at the front of the mic, no amount of amplification will make the voice louder than the guitar. If the guitar is louder than the voice at the front of the mic, turning up the "vocal monitor" will just give you more guitar.

Since the crooning days, the purpose of a vocal microphone was to create an artificial balance between vocals and instruments, but it has practical limitations.
Old 1 week ago
  #60
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Well now...hopefully the OP didn't run out and buy an IEM system, a new channel strip/mic amp and microphone as was being suggested yet....
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