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DRUMS!!!
Old 4 weeks ago
  #1
Gear Nut
 

DRUMS!!!

First an explanation - then a rant - then a question.....

My band plays a variety of music , including prog. I work as a full time sound tech, and am the main sound designer for the band. I talked the band into trying something different a while ago.

We went full stereo IEM - dumped all amps by using Line 6 Helix's for guitars and bass, with no amps on stage, no monitors on stage - our stage volume levels dropped significantly to the enjoyment of our audience. People described the band as sounding like listening to a CD live - and really manageable volume levels. Numerous clubs told us that we were the best sounding band to ever play the club. Notice - no drums mentioned yet.....here we go.....

One more cavat - we play small clubs. Usually under 100 - say 30 to 50 people.

Our line up - Lead Vocals/guitar, Lead guitar/backups, Keys/backups, Bass, Drums/Lead and backup vocals.

Ok, here we go. Our drummer. His acoustic set is a monster made in the 70s. 24" kik, snare, 4 toms 10, 13. 15, 18 - plus cymbals and he uses a drum pad for percussion. It takes him over an hour to set up. Just sayin.....He insists on using a drum riser - ok.....I love this man. He is a kind and wonderful musician, but a pounder - he does not play quiet.....

He built and designed a full set of electronic drums. His first complaint about e-drums was that the pads responded bad (rubber), and they were the wrong size so he kept missing on rolls. So he took a full drum kit - replaced the heads with mesh heads, had parts machined to mount triggers and got a drum brain. I am not sure of the model here, but its a roland mid level unit. I set up the system so that he has a separate input into the mixer for every drum. He used real cymbals that we miced - OH L OH R Ride and HH.

I purchased and paid for 8 channels of DI, the 1/4" snake, and supplied the stage box for the extra inputs.

We did one live gig and he refuses to use the electronics anymore. He has spent ZERO time finishing the set up. I will explain.

To get the Helix's sounding good, and the different output patches balanced - it took 60 to 70 hours of programming.....and every time I practice, I am still refining the sounds.

So here we are - a band with no amps, no stage monitors, and a concert sized kit on a riser BLASTING out at 90+ DB- in a small club - washing out the rest of the band. In this scenario the drums are ALWAYS too loud. WIthout the IEM earbuds in, I would have to leave the stage cause I can't handle the volume level of the drums.

I get the electronic drum issue. It is s huge adjustment. And it takes a LOT of time to program these things. A lot. But he has not spent 1 single minute working on this. He dials a standard kit that comes pre-loaded - and complains that it sucks.

I am done. First, an hour to an hour and half set up time for drums is ridiculous. If this fine person shows up late (50% of the time) - then my set up time for PA becomes a nightmare. With the acoustic drums on a riser - it is SO loud on stage.

Are there any solutions to this dilemma? Here is my final offer to my drummer.

I have purchased Slate drums. I plan to put a computer in the rack, and use numerous channels to layer drum sounds till he is happy. This is relatively easy because the board has ASIO drivers. The best drummer I have ever worked with has offered to come and help with this effort - to help make the electronics as responsive as possible, and to sound as good as possible.

If he refuses this offer - am am going to quit doing sound for the band. I will remove all my gear, and state clearly - I will show up and play guitar, but until you do EVERYTHING possible to resolve the drum issue, then I am uninterested in fighting this anymore.

Are there any other solutions that pro's can see? IMHO - this is not about what's best for the drummer, but about what's best for the band.

For every gig - By myself, I load all the PA gear. I own it. I have supplied the band out of my pocket with new mics, custom built snake, DIs, stage box, computer lighting control. I set up, troubleshoot and do sound check and set up lights - then I get to set up my guitar system. The band is great about helping with the strike, but after I still unload the gear by myself, and have to set up the practice spot again, and again, and again.

Rant over. Need solution. We have one more gig booked - next Friday and this will be my last as sound tech for the band unless the drum issue gets resolved.

Drummers responses MOST appreciated.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #2
Lives for gear
 
clump's Avatar
 

I know it sounds a bit simplistic, but you could always try a plexi-glass drum screen with the acoustic kit?
Old 4 weeks ago
  #3
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by clump View Post
I know it sounds a bit simplistic, but you could always try a plexi-glass drum screen with the acoustic kit?
Yup - but those things are HEAVY to move, expensive to buy or rent. It could be a temporary solution where a long-term solution is needed.

Thank you.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #4
Lives for gear
 
clump's Avatar
 

In that case, other than switching to playing arenas, I think the rest of the band need to have a diplomatic chat to the drummer.......a six drum set up and a drum riser in front of 30-50 people is, to say the least, unnecessary.....I was a drummer myself (and also have a huge ego, so I know where he's coming from but....)

We played a range of different sized venues, and I adjusted my set up to suit......anything under 100 capacity would definitely be a four drum kit with no mics.

Perhaps a plexi-glass ego screen?
Old 4 weeks ago
  #5
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by mikekay View Post
First an explanation - then a rant - then a question.....

My band plays a variety of music , including prog. I work as a full time sound tech, and am the main sound designer for the band. I talked the band into trying something different a while ago.

We went full stereo IEM - dumped all amps by using Line 6 Helix's for guitars and bass, with no amps on stage, no monitors on stage - our stage volume levels dropped significantly to the enjoyment of our audience. People described the band as sounding like listening to a CD live - and really manageable volume levels. Numerous clubs told us that we were the best sounding band to ever play the club. Notice - no drums mentioned yet.....here we go.....

One more cavat - we play small clubs. Usually under 100 - say 30 to 50 people.

Our line up - Lead Vocals/guitar, Lead guitar/backups, Keys/backups, Bass, Drums/Lead and backup vocals.

Ok, here we go. Our drummer. His acoustic set is a monster made in the 70s. 24" kik, snare, 4 toms 10, 13. 15, 18 - plus cymbals and he uses a drum pad for percussion. It takes him over an hour to set up. Just sayin.....He insists on using a drum riser - ok.....I love this man. He is a kind and wonderful musician, but a pounder - he does not play quiet.....

He built and designed a full set of electronic drums. His first complaint about e-drums was that the pads responded bad (rubber), and they were the wrong size so he kept missing on rolls. So he took a full drum kit - replaced the heads with mesh heads, had parts machined to mount triggers and got a drum brain. I am not sure of the model here, but its a roland mid level unit. I set up the system so that he has a separate input into the mixer for every drum. He used real cymbals that we miced - OH L OH R Ride and HH.

I purchased and paid for 8 channels of DI, the 1/4" snake, and supplied the stage box for the extra inputs.

We did one live gig and he refuses to use the electronics anymore. He has spent ZERO time finishing the set up. I will explain.

To get the Helix's sounding good, and the different output patches balanced - it took 60 to 70 hours of programming.....and every time I practice, I am still refining the sounds.

So here we are - a band with no amps, no stage monitors, and a concert sized kit on a riser BLASTING out at 90+ DB- in a small club - washing out the rest of the band. In this scenario the drums are ALWAYS too loud. WIthout the IEM earbuds in, I would have to leave the stage cause I can't handle the volume level of the drums.

I get the electronic drum issue. It is s huge adjustment. And it takes a LOT of time to program these things. A lot. But he has not spent 1 single minute working on this. He dials a standard kit that comes pre-loaded - and complains that it sucks.

I am done. First, an hour to an hour and half set up time for drums is ridiculous. If this fine person shows up late (50% of the time) - then my set up time for PA becomes a nightmare. With the acoustic drums on a riser - it is SO loud on stage.

Are there any solutions to this dilemma? Here is my final offer to my drummer.

I have purchased Slate drums. I plan to put a computer in the rack, and use numerous channels to layer drum sounds till he is happy. This is relatively easy because the board has ASIO drivers. The best drummer I have ever worked with has offered to come and help with this effort - to help make the electronics as responsive as possible, and to sound as good as possible.

If he refuses this offer - am am going to quit doing sound for the band. I will remove all my gear, and state clearly - I will show up and play guitar, but until you do EVERYTHING possible to resolve the drum issue, then I am uninterested in fighting this anymore.

Are there any other solutions that pro's can see? IMHO - this is not about what's best for the drummer, but about what's best for the band.

For every gig - By myself, I load all the PA gear. I own it. I have supplied the band out of my pocket with new mics, custom built snake, DIs, stage box, computer lighting control. I set up, troubleshoot and do sound check and set up lights - then I get to set up my guitar system. The band is great about helping with the strike, but after I still unload the gear by myself, and have to set up the practice spot again, and again, and again.

Rant over. Need solution. We have one more gig booked - next Friday and this will be my last as sound tech for the band unless the drum issue gets resolved.

Drummers responses MOST appreciated.
If you got the right triggers to work with mesh heads then that's taken care of.

If the Drummer does all the moving and set up and if you aren't late all the time then that shouldn't be a problem.

PS, just to let you know, with E-drums you NEED a subwoofer monitor system for the drummer, IEM's only or with a standard floor wedge won't cut it. You need a floor wedge and a sub, Or possibly a sub with IEM, Then you need to dial in the patches so that the bass drum and floor toms have a realistic level of low frequency sound and not a hyped up level.

Sometime people use bass shakers on the drum throne to get a certain feel.

What I'm saying is without a subwoofer and proper monitoring, having the best samples, layers, etc won't make a bit of difference for how it FEELS to play an e-drum kit.

At a minimum a bass shaker and IEM might work depending on the drummer.
https://www.musiciansfriend.com/drum...t-sonic-shaker

Read the reviews for the bass shaker about how it's solved part of your issue.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #6
Gear Addict
 

Er, new drummer?
Old 4 weeks ago
  #7
Gear Nut
 

The drummer is an old guy, like the rest of us and been playing for 35 years.

Thank you for the comment on e-drums. That is fantastic advice, and I am willing to put a sub, and wedge in place on stage for ALL of us to feel the beat better, but specially the drummer.

Thank you. I think I can sell him on this.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #8
Gear Head
 

Are you me?

Been down the same road several times. The drummer has to LOVE e-drums or it just won't work....for long.

One band - drummer loved them, he did all the programming...he got off on making them sound killer...tweaked to perfection! Used a floor wedge and a butt shaker. Heaven.

Another band...we simply forced drummer to use our e-kit. I programmed it and did whatever I could to keep him happy. Whole band was amp-less and used wedges and side fills. Sounded fantastic. It worked well... 'til he quit. He was just not into it. (and yes, programming an e-kit to sound great is quite time consuming.)

Band I'm in now...drummer agreed to e-drums. We "collaborated" on programming. He really tried to like it...and went along with it for years....but...he is a basher and literally beats them to death. I was constantly rebuilding the pads. Plus he basically threw the whole kit in his trunk after gigs so the brain, cords, and hardware were always breaking too.

Finally said screw it. He is back on acoustic kit and I am where you are now.

I put up a drum screen... that takes a little edge off and helps with cymbal bleed.

Also "made" him get light sticks, plus he let me choke down his snare with some tape and throw a blanket in his kik.

Overall it's not as controlled or produced as it was but it's tolerable....just...bar bands...Oy Vey.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #9
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Two of Seven View Post
Are you me?

Been down the same road several times. The drummer has to LOVE e-drums or it just won't work....for long.

One band - drummer loved them, he did all the programming...he got off on making them sound killer...tweaked to perfection! Used a floor wedge and a butt shaker. Heaven.

Another band...we simply forced drummer to use our e-kit. I programmed it and did whatever I could to keep him happy. Whole band was amp-less and used wedges and side fills. Sounded fantastic. It worked well... 'til he quit. He was just not into it. (and yes, programming an e-kit to sound great is quite time consuming.)

Band I'm in now...drummer agreed to e-drums. We "collaborated" on programming. He really tried to like it...and went along with it for years....but...he is a basher and literally beats them to death. I was constantly rebuilding the pads. Plus he basically threw the whole kit in his trunk after gigs so the brain, cords, and hardware were always breaking too.

Finally said screw it. He is back on acoustic kit and I am where you are now.

I put up a drum screen... that takes a little edge off and helps with cymbal bleed.

Also "made" him get light sticks, plus he let me choke down his snare with some tape and throw a blanket in his kik.

Overall it's not as controlled or produced as it was but it's tolerable....just...bar bands...Oy Vey.
Great post. Thanks. Its nice to know I'm not alone. Since I own the PA, do most of the work - if the drummer refuses, I will leave the band. Work too hard, and have too much pride in sound quality to deal with this. Good band too. Great people. But I lose money playing in a band, cause every gig I turn down sound work. and the million bucks we get paid for playing, well, its a little less than that..... I gotta be havin a lot of fun and with the volume levels and hasells its getting not worth it. We have a new years gig booked already - maybe I'll make the year. We'll see.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #10
Lives for gear
 

i was paiste's international artist relation manager for 5 years back in the nineties and from working in this position and as a professional mixer for 35 years, i've heard literally thousands of drummers.

imo there's only one way to get things sorted out: find a drummer who can play an acoustic drum kit well AND at levels which suit your band's needs and the venues you are playing in!

no e-drum kit will please a drummer who has technique, taste and ambition: maybe try once how many different samples it takes to get just anywhere close to the multitude of sounds of a real pair of hats, then try implementing things into a rompler, trigger sounds with some accuracy and use everything in different acoustic settings under various circumstances...

e-drums are (mostly) not a solution but part of the problem!
Old 4 weeks ago
  #11
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by deedeeyeah View Post
i was paiste's international artist relation manager for 5 years back in the nineties and from working in this position and as a professional mixer for 35 years, i've heard literally thousands of drummers.

imo there's only one way to get things sorted out: find a drummer who can play an acoustic drum kit well AND at levels which suit your band's needs and the venues you are playing in!

no e-drum kit will please a drummer who has technique, taste and ambition: maybe try once how many different samples it takes to get just anywhere close to the multitude of sounds of a real pair of hats, then try implementing things into a rompler, trigger sounds with some accuracy and use everything in different acoustic settings under various circumstances...

e-drums are (mostly) not a solution but part of the problem!
You are entitled to your opinion, but so am I. Why does a drummer need to be pleased? They, like all musicians have a job to perform. We are a cover band, not doing this for a living, in small clubs. And EVERY kit I have heard in a small room at some point is too loud. 35 years doing sound...If your read carefully, we use real cymbals and mic them.

In the big picture - this is NOT about the drummer. Its about the whole band, the venue, staff and mostly the audience who support us. The problem is magnified by the lack of amp bleed. The rest of the band has compromised for the greater good - time for the drummer to do the right thing.

https://bestedrums.com/famous-musici...ctronic-drums/

I rest my case....
Old 4 weeks ago
  #12
Lives for gear
 

sorry to hear you came across but drummers who at some point got too loud... - in my world, it's mostly guitar stacks, horns, leslie, wedge mixes for singers or sidefills which are too loud or then the lack of natural hearing experience making musicians push too hard (regardless of monitoring system).

imo any musician needs to be pleased! - nevermind and good luck finding a drummer who doesn't want to have fun while playing...



p.s. i got to work with many of those drummers you linked to (even though some of them were playing a different brand of cymbals): maybe you want to find out for what reason and under which circumstances they actually use(d) electronic drums and when not!
Old 4 weeks ago
  #13
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by deedeeyeah View Post
sorry to hear you came across but drummers who at some point got too loud... - in my world, it's mostly guitar stacks, horns, leslie, wedge mixes for singers or sidefills which are too loud or then the lack of natural hearing experience making musicians push too hard (regardless of monitoring system).

imo any musician needs to be pleased! - nevermind and good luck finding a drummer who doesn't want to have fun while playing...



p.s. i got to work with many of those drummers you linked to (even though some of them were playing a different brand of cymbals): maybe you want to find out for what reason and under which circumstances they actually use(d) electronic drums and when not!
Guitar players - second worse for me. Wedges for amateurs, can you make that sound more green (an actual quote). But you know what - the REAL pro's out there ask - Is this too loud? Dude - we are talking about small rooms. Yes, it has to be fun for the musicians - but we are playing SMALL rooms. There are 2 clubs in this city where his full kit would be more than welcome. You need appropriate tools for the job. Its simple. The MUSIC comes first, always and forever - and every TOP performer I have worked with gets this. I worked with a drummer who had a TINY kit - miced in a small room it was awesome. A totally Pro Abba tribute band - the drums looked real, but were his own sampled drums - volume on stage LOW with detailed monitor mix. I LOVE my drummer. He is a great guy, a great singer, and an ok drummer. Due to singing and playing tough material, his meter is only so so. We are NOT at the beginning of our career - we are at the end. If he wants to bring an oversized kit into a small room - he goes e-drums - or I walk. If he is willing to scale real drums down with a barrier - I will buy in - but doing nothing will not cut it.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #14
Lives for gear
 
Pro Sound Guy's Avatar
 

New drummer
Old 4 weeks ago
  #15
Gear Nut
 

You are ruining my ability to hide the truth....
Old 4 weeks ago
  #16
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by mikekay View Post
You are ruining my ability to hide the truth....
too funny...we are in the same boat. If my band were not old high school buds I'd have walked already. Can't bring my self to force them into retirement. I feel like an enabler...oh well...one of us will drop sooner than later and THAT will put an end to it.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #17
I have bin fiddling with cable dressing while world-class drummer stands and says "guys, it's too loud!" Gradually the levels come down, his powered but controlled rhythm stays the same and suddenly we're enveloped in the much-loved CD track. At show time, they got it at the downbeat. If your band's more stress than fun, time to back out gracefully. Good luck.
WalterT
Old 4 weeks ago
  #18
Here for the gear
 

Have a look at the Zildjian Gen16 series of hybrid electronic cymbals - very quiet acoustic bronze cymbals (with lots of holes in) and integrated pickup connection for e-cymbal use - no need to conventionally mic up the cymbals.

This drummer of yours won't suddenly switch 100% over to an e-drumkit. It needs to be phased in gradually over a year or so.
First swap the noisy cymbals for Zildjian Gen 16 but keep same acoustic drums, so it still feels like his old kit to him. Hybrid kit of acoustic drums and e-cymabls. If that goes okay, swap hi-hat for Zildjian Gen 16 hi-hat too.

Since you then are not miking the cymbals anymore, you can just not mic any of his drumkit at all, since it's too loud anyway, expect maybe kick drum. Or you can mic it if you need to capture it for a recording, but don't put it in FOH speakers.

Few months later, try swapping his snare for mesh e-snare (having spend some time getting a good sound before he tries it) and although it's a transition, and probably the biggest one he'll have to make since the snare is the heart of the drumkit, it's just that change alone, not everything else, and he's already got used to the e-cymbals and still feels like it's still his same drumkit - just a little more hybrid.
Then when he's got used to the e-snare, then finally swap out the toms for mesh e-toms, and the kick drum if needed, although you'll need a decent subwoofer solution in place (and/or a loud buttkicker seat monitor) before you can get a drummer to part with his 24 inch kick.

Other than that, plexi-glass and bring another drummer (mutual friend) along to your band gig and have him play with band (too loudly) during soundcheck while your drummer takes a walk around the stage / audience area and hears the balance problem from the other side of the fence.

I've been pro musician for 25 years and never, ever met or worked with a drummer who wasn't too loud for my liking.
I always have to wear earplugs on stage to be within 15 feet of a drumkit.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #19
Lives for gear
 

Some of the best sounding gigs I’ve heard over the past decades used little or no PA, didn’t use amp simulators and did use REAL acoustic drums....one of those bands didn’t even have a mic mFor the lead singer and the sound was glorious. Talented musicians who can play with control and precision is the key, and the idea that musicians don’t need to be happy with the gear they use is ludicrous at best...try playing a guitar with programmed buttons instead of strings and see how well that works and feels.

I suspect the problem is two fold and we’re only getting one side of the story here. The solution is pretty obvious and simple...get rid of the drummer or walk, and maybe one day you’ll get to play with a band that won’t need IEMs or a PA. Chances are, if the drummer can’t play with control, he probably won’t sound good in a stadium either.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #20
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Samc View Post
Some of the best sounding gigs I’ve heard over the past decades used little or no PA, didn’t use amp simulators and did use REAL acoustic drums....one of those bands didn’t even have a mic mFor the lead singer and the sound was glorious. Talented musicians who can play with control and precision is the key, and the idea that musicians don’t need to be happy with the gear they use is ludicrous at best...try playing a guitar with programmed buttons instead of strings and see how well that works and feels.

I suspect the problem is two fold and we’re only getting one side of the story here. The solution is pretty obvious and simple...get rid of the drummer or walk, and maybe one day you’ll get to play with a band that won’t need IEMs or a PA. Chances are, if the drummer can’t play with control, he probably won’t sound good in a stadium either.
Ok - best sounding - right in front of the stage....in a club that fits 30 people? Or in a noisy environment with people talking at 85 DB? Or at a concert with 10,000 people? Or in a acoustically treated room, with a quiet attentive audience? We are a rock band, playing bars. We are not a string quartet in a great hall. Precision or not - we need a PA. Of course there are 2 sides to every story - but I am a professional sound tech, 35 years experience working Chamber, jazz, blues, talking, and everything in-between. Yes, IMHO it more ludicrous to bring a concert sized drum kit into a room with 40 people, than to compromise for this gig for the sake of the audience and the music. In the appropriate room, I have no issues with the big kit - in fact I love it. Your analogy is stupid. e-drums are still drums. A guitar with buttons is called an autoharp....but whatever - I'm sure that Bruce Springsteen plays concerts with no monitors, amps or a PA.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #21
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by mikekay View Post
Ok - best sounding - right in front of the stage....in a club that fits 30 people? Or in a noisy environment with people talking at 85 DB? Or at a concert with 10,000 people? Or in a acoustically treated room, with a quiet attentive audience? We are a rock band, playing bars. We are not a string quartet in a great hall. Precision or not - we need a PA. Of course there are 2 sides to every story - but I am a professional sound tech, 35 years experience working Chamber, jazz, blues, talking, and everything in-between. Yes, IMHO it more ludicrous to bring a concert sized drum kit into a room with 40 people, than to compromise for this gig for the sake of the audience and the music. In the appropriate room, I have no issues with the big kit - in fact I love it. Your analogy is stupid. e-drums are still drums. A guitar with buttons is called an autoharp....but whatever - I'm sure that Bruce Springsteen plays concerts with no monitors, amps or a PA.
I’m not trying to tell you how to do your gigs, I’m saying I know what the possibilities are, because I’ve seen/experienced them. I’ve seen Steve Gadd play his kit in a room with only about 60 people and NOBODY thought it was too loud...the tiny Eskimo series of concerts is another perfect example of what can be done when players and technicians are doing it right. Yes, very good sounding in a restaurant with only about 50 people playing blues rock with a 5-piece kit, two guitars and bass...all with amps. Or a jazz combo with a singer and horns....

I understand that the guy who owns the PA thinks the band must play with a PA.....I could go on but I don’t think it will matter, and I don’t think you’re going to convince the drummer to like playing an electronic kit either. So just get rid of the guy or move on with your PA, This partially sounds like an internal power struggle to me. We’re all professionals here...even the people who are not.

Last edited by Samc; 4 weeks ago at 05:36 PM..
Old 4 weeks ago
  #22
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Samc View Post
I’m not trying to tell you how to do your gigs, I’m saying I know what the possibilities are, because I’ve seen/experienced them. I’ve seen Steve Gadd play his kit in a room with only about 60 people and NOBODY thought it was too loud...the tiny Eskimo series of concerts is another perfect example of what can be done when players and technicians are doing it right. Yes, very good sounding in a restaurant with only about 50 people playing blues rock with a 5-piece kit, two guitars and bass...all with amps. Or a jazz combo with a singer and horns....

I understand that the guy who owns the PA thinks the band must play with a PA.....I could go on but I don’t think it will matter, and I don’t think you’re going to convince the drummer to like playing an electronic kit either. So just get rid of the guy or move on with your PA, This partially sounds like an internal power struggle to me.
I will be offering the band a few options.
1. Go electronics for smaller rooms OR
2. Get a smaller kit and barrier OR
3. Get someone else to do sound - provide PA - OR
4. Find another guitar player

A rock band in a noisy club with no PA is as silly as a guitar with buttons. Our drummer is no Steve Gadd - and there are few who can play at his level - whew he's awesome. Part of the difficulty is that I do all the PA, set it up, maintain, load, unload....and if I can't make it sound like I wish, then I don't want to do it. I believe this is reasonable. If I just showed up to play guitar, I would not be taking a stand....but I do, and its a challenge to do all that work, then walk on stage and play 3 sets till 2:00 AM, then strike, and unload. I really love my drummer - he is an awesome guy and a great singer. His kit is stupid - that's it and oversized for the clubs we play.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #23
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by mikekay View Post
I will be offering the band a few options.
1. Go electronics for smaller rooms OR
2. Get a smaller kit and barrier OR
3. Get someone else to do sound - provide PA - OR
4. Find another guitar player

A rock band in a noisy club with no PA is as silly as a guitar with buttons. Our drummer is no Steve Gadd - and there are few who can play at his level - whew he's awesome. Part of the difficulty is that I do all the PA, set it up, maintain, load, unload....and if I can't make it sound like I wish, then I don't want to do it. I believe this is reasonable. If I just showed up to play guitar, I would not be taking a stand....but I do, and its a challenge to do all that work, then walk on stage and play 3 sets till 2:00 AM, then strike, and unload. I really love my drummer - he is an awesome guy and a great singer. His kit is stupid - that's it and oversized for the clubs we play.
You’ve already made your intentions clear, So you’ve already mad up your mind and was basically seeking approval from the quorum. I’ve already said that getting rid of the drummer or moving on we’re the two best options for obvious reasons...he can, and will probably still be too loud on a smaller kit, and it’s pretty obvious he does not like playing electric pads, which is absolutely NOT the same as an acoustic pad by the way...but hey.

If you can’t work with things the way they are you can’t, but I sense that this gives you the opportunity to stick up the band and that there is more to this than just the drummer being loud.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #24
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Samc View Post
You’ve already made your intentions clear, So you’ve already mad up your mind and was basically seeking approval from the quorum. I’ve already said that getting rid of the drummer or moving on we’re the two best options for obvious reasons...he can, and will probably still be too loud on a smaller kit, and it’s pretty obvious he does not like playing electric pads, which is absolutely NOT the same as an acoustic pad by the way...but hey.

If you can’t work with things the way they are you can’t, but I sense that this gives you the opportunity to stick up the band and that there is more to this than just the drummer being loud.
Couple of things. Drummer originally agreed to go e-drums. These people are my friends. I have NO intention of sticking it to anybody and will continue to play if he decides to keep the monster kit. I just will not do sound - and that is the issue. It is ENTIRELY the issue. If I have to work that hard for this outfit - then I get my way. If I just have to show up and play- then whatever - its not ME doing sound. It still matters, but I'm not running things.

Buddy - you seem to think I want to screw somebody over. I have a PASSION for sound. A reputation in the city for quality work. I put the MUSIC ahead of everything including myself. His ****ing kit takes over an hour to set up and is HUGE - and you have not replied to that. It is NOT appropriate - and this is my last post. He was warned that this was an issue and that it would return. There will be no surprises next week at the meeting. I have voiced my displeasure many times to no avail. I an not using a double Marshall stack with 2 100 watt heads in a club with 40 people. He is. End.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #25
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by mikekay View Post
I will be offering the band a few options.
1. Go electronics for smaller rooms OR
2. Get a smaller kit and barrier OR
3. Get someone else to do sound - provide PA - OR
4. Find another guitar player

A rock band in a noisy club with no PA is as silly as a guitar with buttons. Our drummer is no Steve Gadd - and there are few who can play at his level - whew he's awesome. Part of the difficulty is that I do all the PA, set it up, maintain, load, unload....and if I can't make it sound like I wish, then I don't want to do it. I believe this is reasonable. If I just showed up to play guitar, I would not be taking a stand....but I do, and its a challenge to do all that work, then walk on stage and play 3 sets till 2:00 AM, then strike, and unload. I really love my drummer - he is an awesome guy and a great singer. His kit is stupid - that's it and oversized for the clubs we play.
they way you put things tells me more about your attitude than the drummer's - i therefore suggest you combine options 3 and 4!
Old 4 weeks ago
  #26
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by mikekay View Post
We are a rock band, playing bars. We are not a string quartet in a great hall. Precision or not - we need a PA.
It might help to think of the situation in reverse . . . what challenges would a string quartet face in attempting to fill a stadium to arena-rock SPL levels playing Beethoven Op.133? Of course the conversation can quickly go towards the technical details like feedback control and musician monitoring -- but really, that's the easy, obvious part of the equation. The real crux of the matter is that a concert in such a format is something very different creatively from the same piece played in a small concert hall; the relationship and energy between the performers and with their audience will be completely different.

Don't forget that what you're doing is asking an acoustic drummer to change what instrument they play to fit your creative vision of what, and how, they should be communicating with the other members of the ensemble and with the audience. The fact that the rest of the band has successfully/comfortably/willingly changed their instruments to do so is ultimately irrelevant.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mikekay View Post
I really love my drummer - he is an awesome guy and a great singer. His kit is stupid - that's it and oversized for the clubs we play.
I'm guessing that he doesn't think his kit is "stupid" . . . otherwise he wouldn't be schlepping it around to play on. Although you may love the guy, that doesn't mean that he's a good fit for your band. Perhaps he wants and is able to adapt his playing in exactly the right manner to become a good fit . . . maybe the band wants to change the way they play to include him . . . or both . . . or neither.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mikekay View Post
I will be offering the band a few options.
1. Go electronics for smaller rooms OR
2. Get a smaller kit and barrier OR
3. Get someone else to do sound - provide PA - OR
4. Find another guitar player
I've personally never had much success with any of my professional or artistic collaborations by putting out ultimatums . . . but I understand that it can work for some people. As you describe it, the band simply needs to all get on the same page in terms of who they want to be, how they want to play, and where they want to perform. Hopefully, you'll find the right group of people where it all works out . . . but if you find that what you're after is a particular rare bird of a drummer, then you simply need to find them, period. No amount of electronic gadgetry will help if the basic musical and creative interactions aren't where they need to be.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #27
Here for the gear
 

We use e-drums and everyone in my band loves it. Setup time is less than 5 minutes and you can carry the thing around with one arm and it sounds awesome, both at rehearsals and at gigs! The combinations of e-drums, DI guitars and bass and IEM are amazing. Stage volume is just what the PA leaks. We use alesis crimson 2 with EZdrummer 2.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #28
Gear Addict
IMO you need a new drummer. Your philosophies are clashing. However, you have enabled him by bending over backwards to favor his individual sound over the band's. Unless he's such a great drummer that you can't do without him I would start looking now.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #29
Gear Maniac
 
Mike M's Avatar
e drums would be the ticket

although if the drummer refuses, you are stuck between a rock and a hard place.

I am not a drummer but I've heard from more than one drummer that edrums "don't feel right" to them....

I suggest that you have a meeting with your band mates and say "as of (enter date here) I won't be bringing the PA to gigs...." It's time to start looking at other options...maybe another band member will "step up"...or the band can "hire out"....once the band learns how much it costs to hire-in a PA the band may ask YOU what THEY can do to keep things as they are (you doing the PA).

It's silly that you have to be the one that needs to cater to drummer's (set up) time table.....plus I'm sure that he may very well "rock god" (talk to his harem) immediately after a gig so you are left to breaking down around his stuff.

There is a line between working together and being taken advantage of....

I have seen situations where the weakest link (musicianship-wise) in a band is-the-one who brings the PA or books all of the gigs. Sometimes it's a trade off.

Time for a meeting with the boys...
Old 3 weeks ago
  #30
Lives for gear
I'm confused. You say that people in the audience described the band as sounding like they were listening to a CD live at really manageable volume levels. You also said that numerous clubs told you that your band was the best sounding band to ever play the club. So what's the problem?

Or are you saying that the drummer was not there when these comments were made? If as you say, the drummer plays so loud that the rest of the band can't be heard, I am not understanding why the audience would make those comments.

So one of two things are at play here. Everyone else likes it but you don't. If that's the case, let it go. If on the other hand, the drummer is in fact too loud and the audience is just being kind (yes men), then find a new drummer. Since you own the PA and do he sound, you have a lot of say in the matter. Take charge and do what you have to do. The trick is to make sure you don't tick off the rest of the band.
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