The No.1 Website for Pro Audio
Riders -- Condensers for Percussion
Old 3 weeks ago
  #1
Gear Guru
 
Brent Hahn's Avatar
 

Riders -- Condensers for Percussion

I'm still pretty new to the FOH thing, but it seems like with anyone with hand perc specifies condenser mics. Why? It's already the brightest stuff on the stage, and gain is a non-issue.

Do people just copy-and-paste this stuff from other riders they've found? I've suspected that for a while about "clean ice."

Anyone who sends a rider to a bar is a pretentious tool anyway, imo, but that's not really the issue.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #2
Lives for gear
 

many bands do copy-paste things on their riders but many percussionists use all sorts of toys to make some additional noise (shakers, tambourins, woodblocks, bells, whistles, chimes, crickets and whatnot) so besides sticking some dynamics to congas, bongos, djembes, timbales etc., a single condenser pointing in the direction of the percussionist doesn't need to be a bad idea - at least it has been working pretty well for me when working with airto moreira, louis conte, sheila e., marilyn mazur, evelyn glennie etc. they do not play at bars very often though...
depending on the rig (and what mics are available) i have been using several sdc's or ldc's with various patterns, sometimes as a pair of spaced overheads, sometimes close to instruments. for a small rig and/or in a small place or on a very loud stage, a dynamic mic should do.
maybe except for tablas, condensers as close mics on (hand) drums imo are as useless as on toms - however, there are far more mini condensers clip mics available than dynamics...
Old 3 weeks ago
  #3
Lives for gear
 

an condenser or two over the percussions can offer good pickup of the various toys without too much fussing on the part of the musician or the mixer, they just need to be aimed in the general direction of where the instruments are being played.

The musician can play without shadowing the mic and the mixer can use a limiter and not have to chase the instrument like a spot. Feature musicians who will have everything covered are one thing, but for a percussionist in the corner of stage left who might go from a egg shaker to cow bell, you can cover the perf table with a couple of SDCs and take care of him/her easily.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #4
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Hahn View Post
I'm still pretty new to the FOH thing, but it seems like with anyone with hand perc specifies condenser mics. Why? It's already the brightest stuff on the stage, and gain is a non-issue.

Do people just copy-and-paste this stuff from other riders they've found? I've suspected that for a while about "clean ice."

Anyone who sends a rider to a bar is a pretentious tool anyway, imo, but that's not really the issue.
Could also be they're used to micing it with a SDC while recording, and don't know what's needed for a live bar gig... but doesn't hurt to ask them to understand what the request is coming from, even if it's copy/paste.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #5
Gear Guru
 
Brent Hahn's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by nedorama View Post
Could also be they're used to micing it with a SDC while recording, and don't know what's needed for a live bar gig... but doesn't hurt to ask them to understand what the request is coming from, even if it's copy/paste.
It's the kind of thing that's hard to ask without coming off as ignorant or antagonistic or both, and ultimately not important. I just thought it was curious.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #6
Lives for gear
 
GreenNeedle's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Hahn View Post
It's the kind of thing that's hard to ask without coming off as ignorant or antagonistic or both, and ultimately not important. I just thought it was curious.
I would base my decision on whether i gave them a SDC or a dynamic on the stage volume. But a SDC can give you that snappy fast punch in the right situation and really be the ticket.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #7
Gear Guru
 
Brent Hahn's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by GreenNeedle View Post
I would base my decision on whether i gave them a SDC or a dynamic on the stage volume. But a SDC can give you that snappy fast punch in the right situation and really be the ticket.
As a rule, it's bands that are too loud on stages that are too small, and the whole point of the percussion instruments in the first place is so a singer or horn player can appear to be multitasking.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #8
Lives for gear
 
GreenNeedle's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Hahn View Post
As a rule, it's band that are too loud on stages that are too small, and the whole point of the percussion instruments in the first place is so a singer or horn player can appear to be multitasking.
Right. Best to approach them like the drum OH’s in that situation- OFF.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #9
Gear Guru
 
Brent Hahn's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by GreenNeedle View Post
Right. Best to approach them like the drum OH’s in that situation- OFF.
GC has practice pads, but why no empty maracas?
Old 3 weeks ago
  #10
Lives for gear
 
GreenNeedle's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Hahn View Post
GC has practice pads, but why no empty maracas?
Now I’m thinking ‘empty’ banjos and fiddles =$$$$
Old 3 weeks ago
  #11
Lives for gear
Let the band SEE the mics they specified in the rider. The rest is up to the judgement and moral boundaries of the mixer.

“No, the 57s are there just to dial in a little meat if I need it. It’s a trick I learned from_________ .” (Fill in the name of someone famous and preferably now dead.)
Old 3 weeks ago
  #12
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bushman View Post
Let the band SEE the mics they specified in the rider. The rest is up to the judgement and moral boundaries of the mixer.

“No, the 57s are there just to dial in a little meat if I need it. It’s a trick I learned from_________ .” (Fill in the name of someone famous and preferably now dead.)
I’ve found it a lot easier to try to educate the bad/musician why my suggestion might work better, it’s often easier than we think and builds confidence.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #13
Many performers, IMHO, have seen other people they admire using certain gear and assume that this is what makes their "heroes" sound fantastic so that is what they want to emulate. We did a gig where the band request ALL LDC mics and said they did not want to see any SM-57s or SM-58s on stage. Why? Cause they can...

FWIW
Old 3 weeks ago
  #14
Lives for gear
 

It’s probably more likely that they have a general rider prepared by a sound person for them and the band has not changed anything because it usually works...frankly though, I don’t see any problem with using a condenser mic on percussions in a bar. We should be happy when a band take the time to send in a rider in the first place...Everything can be verified with an advance, this is the most efficient way of preparing as far as I know. Everybody knows what to expect and how to prepare for the gig.

We can’t, or shouldn’t just assume that people are idiots and should be treated as such...confidence goes a long way.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #15
Gear Guru
 
Brent Hahn's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Samc View Post
It’s probably more likely...
I agree with most of what you say. As for the idiot assumption -- and it can work in both directions -- I find the best and fastest way through all that is a phone call. You get a much better sense of each other, and sometimes one little tidbit in the answer to one question will lead you to the all-important question you'd never have thought to ask.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #16
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bushman View Post
Let the band SEE the mics they specified in the rider.
Hey, I can quote myself! Didn’t know that.

After some thought, there isn’t any value in my “advice”. I’ve never actually done that stunt, although I have turned off mics that didn’t add anything in small venues.
Listen to samc and brent, who have many multiples of my limited experience as a live sound provider/engineer.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #17
Gear Guru
 
Brent Hahn's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bushman View Post
Listen to samc and brent, who have many multiples of my limited experience as a live sound provider/engineer.
Nope, I've actually been doing it for really short time and in really small places. Which means my observations are fresh, but it also means I know next to nothing. Trying hard not to be one of those Dunning-Kruger types.

Five years ago I basically did one thing for a living, now it's about six. Seven if a pending deal goes anywhere.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #18
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Hahn View Post
I agree with most of what you say. As for the idiot assumption -- and it can work in both directions -- I find the best and fastest way through all that is a phone call. You get a much better sense of each other, and sometimes one little tidbit in the answer to one question will lead you to the all-important question you'd never have thought to ask.
This...! The advance is so important, don’t understand why some bands and local productions don’t do it as a matter of fact.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #19
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Hahn View Post
Nope, I've actually been doing it for really short time and in really small places.

Trying hard not to be one of those Dunning-Kruger types
I stand corrected.
What is a Dunning-Kruger type?
(It shows my age that I asked you before internetting it.)
Old 3 weeks ago
  #20
Gear Guru
 
Brent Hahn's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bushman View Post
What is a Dunning-Kruger type?
Worth a Google. But long story short, someone who's way too ignorant about something to know how spectacularly ignorant they are.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #21
Lives for gear
 

IMO electret condensers are plenty appropriate for miscellaneous percussion, and plenty cheap.

And of course riders are worth sending to small venues. Doesn't mean they have to be followed to the letter. If the band's FOH is being unrealistic that's his problem not the rider's.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #22
Gear Maniac
 
Mike M's Avatar
Drum mics and riders

At my local level band riders are common although specific drum mic demands are seldom adhered to.
I have found that the most important things on a band rider (at-the-local-level) are to make sure that:
- the set up space is large enough for the band
- there is appropriate set up time

I provided the rig for an outdoor multi-band show two summers ago where my fee was quoted using my inventory gear for the bands.

As the date approached a popular band (from Boston) was added to the show as a headliner.

Their rider had a specific set up time,minimum stage size, and the band's stage plot included specific mics (including three KSM 137's for the kit).
I told the promoter I did not have them but could rent-them-in for $$$....
of course the promoter balked.

I had the promoter contact the band directly with my list of mics and all was approved.

It was rather interesting that on the day of the festival their set up time was less than 30 minutes (rider insisted on 90 minutes) and there was an awards presentation on the smaller-than-spec'd stage at the same time.

The drummer told me "do the best that you can" - minimal drum mic'ing, no sound check (other than vocals).
Thankfully the vocal mics/monitors were dialed-in from the bands earlier in the day.

Back on point:
a rider for a club gig.... I'd be happy with enough room for the band to set up plus power drops....anything else would be a bonus
Old 2 weeks ago
  #23
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike M View Post
At my local level band riders are common although specific drum mic demands are seldom adhered to.
I have found that the most important things on a band rider (at-the-local-level) are to make sure that:
- the set up space is large enough for the band
- there is appropriate set up time

I provided the rig for an outdoor multi-band show two summers ago where my fee was quoted using my inventory gear for the bands.

As the date approached a popular band (from Boston) was added to the show as a headliner.

Their rider had a specific set up time,minimum stage size, and the band's stage plot included specific mics (including three KSM 137's for the kit).
I told the promoter I did not have them but could rent-them-in for $$$....
of course the promoter balked.

I had the promoter contact the band directly with my list of mics and all was approved.

It was rather interesting that on the day of the festival their set up time was less than 30 minutes (rider insisted on 90 minutes) and there was an awards presentation on the smaller-than-spec'd stage at the same time.

The drummer told me "do the best that you can" - minimal drum mic'ing, no sound check (other than vocals).
Thankfully the vocal mics/monitors were dialed-in from the bands earlier in the day.

Back on point:
a rider for a club gig.... I'd be happy with enough room for the band to set up plus power drops....anything else would be a bonus
Got lots of stories similar to this, my fave is when I bullied a congressman and a governor out of the stage schedule in order to get setup time for my client band, playing an Independence Day show in the state capital. Instead they pre-recorded their addresses to be shown on the big screens. Later I ran into the governor backstage with beer in hand, I apologized for the situation, he said "Are you kidding? I'm going to do it that way every year from now on! I didn't know that was an option! Thanks a bunch!"

As for mics, I'm notorious for my cheap mics that outperform Sennheiser/Shure standards. Luckily I have a friend with a pretty full set of rider-kosher mics who's happy to swap and use mine when my clients turn their noses up at them.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #24
Gear Maniac
 
Mike M's Avatar
networking./ sharing gear

Quote:
Originally Posted by AC2SPL View Post

As for mics, I'm notorious for my cheap mics that outperform Sennheiser/Shure standards. Luckily I have a friend with a pretty full set of rider-kosher mics who's happy to swap and use mine when my clients turn their noses up at them.
Depending on the band (at my local level) I'll use the what I have to cover most situations. If the drummer is a real basher he'll get my well-used gear.

I have my main mics (mostly Senn/Shure) dialed in pretty well using my rigs thus I never get a complaint.


I too have a friend with whom I have swapped equipment when necessary. It doesn't make much sense stocking "everything" as far as mics are concerned unless someone is gigging every weekend (or they're rich).
Old 2 weeks ago
  #25
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by AC2SPL View Post
As for mics, I'm notorious for my cheap mics that outperform Sennheiser/Shure standards. Luckily I have a friend with a pretty full set of rider-kosher mics who's happy to swap and use mine when my clients turn their noses up at them.
Just out of curiosity what cheap mics do you use that outperform standard mics. I perhaps don't know enough, but for me it seems like in terms of bang for the buck it is hard to beat something like an sm58.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #26
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by floomby View Post
Just out of curiosity what cheap mics do you use that outperform standard mics. I perhaps don't know enough, but for me it seems like in terms of bang for the buck it is hard to beat something like an sm58.
IMO virtually any respectable hypercardioid beats an SM58, and they don't tend to be cheaper. But if a vocalist needs a cardioid pattern it's usually because they're used to an SM58 because they already own one. But I'd steer them towards an EV CO9.

Really it's more the instrument mics where the real money can be saved and better results had:
CAD D29: like an SM57 but warmer low end and hypercardioid
EV N/D468: beats e906 on guitar cabs
Rode NT5: kicks SM81's butt
Audix F6: sounds exactly like D6 but less expensive housing

Please keep in mind these are my subjective opinions, let's not go trigger happy.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #27
Lives for gear
I like the Senn 835 better than the 57 or 58 for toms, male or female vocals and guitar cabs. The 835 seems to me to be as clear but less harsh. I like the 57 on snare, but I like the Senn 604 about as well. I do not like the Audix i5 better than any of these mics on anything.
Not that anyone asked.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #28
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by AC2SPL View Post
Please keep in mind these are my subjective opinions, let's not go trigger happy.
Oh no worries. Honestly just trying to get an idea of what people are using and maybe to keep in mind to add to my collection down the road.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #29
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bushman View Post
I like the Senn 835 better than the 57 or 58 for toms, male or female vocals and guitar cabs. The 835 seems to me to be as clear but less harsh. I like the 57 on snare, but I like the Senn 604 about as well. I do not like the Audix i5 better than any of these mics on anything.
Not that anyone asked.
Interesting. I like an 835 on snare in particular, I prefer something warmer on toms, but if snap is what you need they have it. They're great for making male vocals sound more aggressive, but keep them away from the ladies! Turns them into nagging mother-in-laws. Strong vocals also eventually kill the diaphragm.

Getting back on point, 835's are great on percussion if you need good attack. Great tip for all those latin grunge bands...
Old 2 weeks ago
  #30
Gear Maniac
 
Mike M's Avatar
...made me chuckle

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Hahn View Post
GC has practice pads, but why no empty maracas?
or inflatable cymbals.....
Topic:
Post Reply

Welcome to the Gearslutz Pro Audio Community!

Registration benefits include:
  • The ability to reply to and create new discussions
  • Access to members-only giveaways & competitions
  • Interact with VIP industry experts in our guest Q&As
  • Access to members-only sub forum discussions
  • Access to members-only Chat Room
  • Get INSTANT ACCESS to the world's best private pro audio Classifieds for only USD $20/year
  • Promote your eBay auctions and Reverb.com listings for free
  • Remove this message!
You need an account to post a reply. Create a username and password below and an account will be created and your post entered.


 
 
Slide to join now Processing…
Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Forum Jump
Forum Jump