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Allen & Heath Avantis.
Old 15th October 2019
  #1
Lives for gear
 

Allen & Heath Avantis.

I'm surprised nobody here is discussing this new console from A&H. Based on the price and features this is a more exciting product than the new Midas Heritage for most folks here:

Quote:
The Avantis digital mixer provides 64 mono input channels, 12 stereo FX returns and 42 flexible mix buses.
The third mixer based on our 96kHz XCVI FPGA engine, Avantis puts all our next‐generation technology in a standalone 64 channel / 42 configurable bus console, with dual Full HD touchscreens, a super‐flexible workflow with Continuity UI, extensive I/O options, add‐on processing from our flagship dLive mixing system, and a rugged full metal chassis.
Fully compatible with all the dLive I/O cards, the full ‘Everything I/O’ range and IP controllers.

96kHz / 64 CHANNEL / 42 BUS DIGITAL MIXER
FULLY CONFIGURABLE MIX ARCHITECTURE
XCVI CORE - 0.7MS LATENCY / PHASE COHERENT
DUAL FULL HD TOUCHSCREENS WITH CONTINUITY UI
EVERYTHING I/O - HUGE RANGE OF REMOTE EXPANDERS
DPACK UPGRADE FOR ADDITIONAL DLIVE PROCESSING
SUPER STRONG, LIGHTWEIGHT FULL METAL CHASSIS
Attached Thumbnails
Allen & Heath Avantis.-3678722931.jpg   Allen & Heath Avantis.-2617705240.jpg   Allen & Heath Avantis.-1016227323.jpg   Allen & Heath Avantis.-1998695757.jpg   Allen & Heath Avantis.-3404149547.jpg  

Old 15th October 2019
  #2
Lives for gear
 

Avantis pricing as follows:

Mixer only: USD $9,999 MSRP / EUR €9,699 MSRP
dPack add-on: USD $1,499 MSRP / EUR €1,499 MSRP
GX4816 Remote Expander: USD $3,999 MSRP / EUR €3,499 MSRP

Old 16th October 2019
  #3
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Samc View Post
Avantis pricing as follows:

Mixer only: USD $9,999 MSRP / EUR €9,699 MSRP
dPack add-on: USD $1,499 MSRP / EUR €1,499 MSRP
GX4816 Remote Expander: USD $3,999 MSRP / EUR €3,499 MSRP

Interesting, especially at that price point. I think a used iLive system with that many inputs still runs at around $10k
Old 16th October 2019
  #4
Lives for gear
 

Allen & Heath Announces Avantis 96kHz Digital Mixer

makes the midas indeed look very much overpriced (although evil b's fan boys will cry out that it's got tc and lake on board...)
from a first glance at the desk, i don't like the surface much: i prefer using a bunch of knobs to trim, not just a few with varying functions; switching between them and a touch screen is not the the way i like things either (which is amongst the most important reasons why i choose my vista over the ssl live) but many manufacturers seem to be going this way...
Old 16th October 2019
  #5
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by deedeeyeah View Post
makes the midas indeed look very much overpriced (although evil b's fan boys will cry out that it's got tc and lake on board...)
from a first glance at the desk, i don't like the surface much: i prefer using a bunch of knobs to trim, not just a few with varying functions; switching between them and a touch screen is not the the way i like things either (which is amongst the most important reasons why i choose my vista over the ssl live) but many manufacturers seem to be going this way...
Yamaha nailed this down a long time ago and this is one of the main reasons their consoles are still so popular, even with their relatively high cost and the fact that so many people claim they don't sound all that good.
Old 16th October 2019
  #6
Lives for gear
 

I find the various incarnations of new versions of medium sized consoles very interesting when given the fact that most of the market needs high quality small format processing: not 64 channels. I would be willing to wager a considerable sum that A & H's SQ line will generate substantially more revenue than all of their large format sales combined. If my supposition is correct we might consider several reasons why so much R & D effort is dedicated to a small market share?

1) The D-Live is the A & H flagship console and it has carved out a strong share of the medium sized high quality console market. Other than the ubiquitous firmware upgrades It has smartly remained unchanged.
(Why fix or change it if it ain't broke)

2) Integration of new features like broadly expanded use of large external touch screens and much better WIFI remote control options are not the preference of dedicated knob and fader folks like deedeeyeah. So introducing them in a new line makes perfect sense: If they are a big marketing plus they will be an added optional upgrade to both the top of the line D-Live and the prime market seller SQ line.

The reality is all three models, D-Live, SQ and Avantis, offer world class 96khz FPGA processing along with very good pre amps and digital conversion. Perhaps the Avantis line will be the new idea guinea pig for A & H like Oldsmobile was for GM for many years. The ability to successfully address various high quality market segments with attractive price points and avoiding disappointing their loyal clientele is the business model that has proven to be highly profitable in a market driven economy.
Hugh
Old 16th October 2019
  #7
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by hughshouse View Post
I find the various incarnations of new versions of medium sized consoles very interesting when given the fact that most of the market needs high quality small format processing: not 64 channels. I would be willing to wager a considerable sum that A & H's SQ line will generate substantially more revenue than all of their large format sales combined. If my supposition is correct we might consider several reasons why so much R & D effort is dedicated to a small market share?

1) The D-Live is the A & H flagship console and it has carved out a strong share of the medium sized high quality console market. Other than the ubiquitous firmware upgrades It has smartly remained unchanged.
(Why fix or change it if it ain't broke)

2) Integration of new features like broadly expanded use of large external touch screens and much better WIFI remote control options are not the preference of dedicated knob and fader folks like deedeeyeah. So introducing them in a new line makes perfect sense: If they are a big marketing plus they will be an added optional upgrade to both the top of the line D-Live and the prime market seller SQ line.

The reality is all three models, D-Live, SQ and Avantis, offer world class 96khz FPGA processing along with very good pre amps and digital conversion. Perhaps the Avantis line will be the new idea guinea pig for A & H like Oldsmobile was for GM for many years. The ability to successfully address various high quality market segments with attractive price points and avoiding disappointing their loyal clientele is the business model that has proven to be highly profitable in a market driven economy.
Hugh
nothing wrong with introducing some new gear every now end then and sell thousands of units to the masses - so yeah: the name 'avantis' may be pretty well chosen as it reminds (at least) me of 'avanti popolo'!

trouble is that imo most manufacturers still blindy copy each others mistakes rather than develop a small but immensely powerful desk which could satisfy the most discerning needs...

this does not mean more of the same but imo would start with the implementation of more than the average comp/gate dynamic section (on every channel, not as an option to run additional tools via plugins) but would also include mix minus, multiple main busses (in different formats), multiple pfl/afl/solo buses (in different formats), enough analog and digital i/o's on the desk, a 'standard' format or better two without the need for conversion via additional cards (and lets face it, those formats are currently madi and dante), both enough knobs/faders and rouch sensitive displays (or a chouce of different surface) which can show more than one channel strip at the time, a scalable surface from smsll to very large, optional meter bridge, external screens, wifi etc.

i'd be prepared to pay BIG bucks for such a desk and i know a few more folks who would order a couple of those - if they only would become available! since this is not the case, we keep our 20 year old yamahas running: nothing spectacular and limited in many ways but extremely reliable!

this imo illustrates much more precisely where we're standing than the marketing hype about hi-sampling, emulation/plug in of yet another dinosaur processor, fpga etc.
Old 16th October 2019
  #8
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by hughshouse View Post
I find the various incarnations of new versions of medium sized consoles very interesting when given the fact that most of the market needs high quality small format processing: not 64 channels. I would be willing to wager a considerable sum that A & H's SQ line will generate substantially more revenue than all of their large format sales combined. If my supposition is correct we might consider several reasons why so much R & D effort is dedicated to a small market share?
Can't speak for A&H but this is the same with loudspeakers, and I was told by a couple of manufacturers that if they don't turn out new products on a regular basis they will loose market share to the competition even if the new stuff isn't ant better, its silly, but it tells you who are driving this corner of the market...not professionals.

But I also think the idea is to offer slightly different versions of the same console and offer them in different market segments. A single R & D budget for a product that can be sold in three different market segments...

Broadcast and other high-end clients ask for or expect a new console every year, because they expect the last one to be around for a few years, and when the new model drops they expect meaningful changes, not just a bigger place holder for the new iPad.
Old 16th October 2019
  #9
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by deedeeyeah View Post
trouble is that imo most manufacturers still blindy copy each others mistakes rather than develop a small but immensely powerful desk which could satisfy the most discerning needs...
And this right here is the rub, I often wonder where the design ideas ideas are coming from...remember when every console had to have a place for the obligatory iPad? Where is that 'feature' now?
Old 16th October 2019
  #10
Lives for gear
 

I am trying my best to wrap my head around deedeeyeah's post #7 : lets see if I got the gist of it.

1) Plug-ins, High sampling rates and dinosaur FPGA processsors are nothing more than marketing hype.

2) I am ready to stipulate the obvious expertise of your opinion pursuant to dinosaur gear given the fact you are happy with the ordinary, limited but reliable Yamaha desk purchased two decades ago.

The hard cold reality is the "dream desk" you describe will never be a viable offering because the very features you demeaned in your post are driving todays market driven demand. Since today's preferred features and processors do not suit your wants and needs you are indeed fortunate to be happy with your old obsolete Yamaha gear.
Hugh
Old 17th October 2019
  #11
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by hughshouse View Post
I am trying my best to wrap my head around deedeeyeah's post #7 : lets see if I got the gist of it.

1) Plug-ins, High sampling rates and dinosaur FPGA processsors are nothing more than marketing hype.

2) I am ready to stipulate the obvious expertise of your opinion pursuant to dinosaur gear given the fact you are happy with the ordinary, limited but reliable Yamaha desk purchased two decades ago.

The hard cold reality is the "dream desk" you describe will never be a viable offering because the very features you demeaned in your post are driving todays market driven demand. Since today's preferred features and processors do not suit your wants and needs you are indeed fortunate to be happy with your old obsolete Yamaha gear.
Hugh
i assume you mis-interpreted me on purpose...

1a) most any plugins are emulations of some gear of the past - i do however have not much need for history lessons when mixing and i rather use a desk with both a dedicated physical surface and dsp than fiddling with yet another emulation of a dinosaur tool with virtual knobs...
(mr cleamountain's new plugin is a lot of fun though!)

1b) hi-sampling has its benefits even in live sound but mostly regarding latency: there are some (very well designed) desks which you'd be very hard pressed to hear (or measure) any difference between standard and hi-sampling. the obvious downside of hi-sampling is the heavy load it puts on interfaces and other computer gear - i much rather mix on a desk which sounds good at 48k than on one which needs 96k and yet sounds crappy!
(been there, done that, even dsd - happy to report i'm back on 48k!)

1c) fpga's per se don't 'sound' better than other dsp chips! i happen to know that my favourite desks use fpga's but for summing; the manufacturer never thought about making a big fuss out of it while i had some serious issues with desks by a manufacturer who praised their fpga architecture big time! or there is a famous manufacurer of efx devices who seems to be struggeling for years to get his code ported into a fpga environment... - marketing!
(the next big thing will be nuclear desks! wondering how they're gonna advertise those...)

2a) yes, i do have some expertise... (even in various fields)

2b) ...which lets me achieve decent results even with some old yamaha desks (btw: no one can hear from a mix what digital desk you were using!) - i'm not exactly 'happy' with them but there is a reason why i keep them going and occasionally even use them: they are reliable! this to me in some situations is much more important than getting the latest toys, especially if they are buggy and i'm getting mis-used as a unvoluntary beta tester!

2c) some of the new toys miss out even on very simple tasks: check out the gates on almost any digital desk and chances are that there is no hysteresis or it's wrongly implemented!

2d) i'm pretty happy with my new desk, not only 'cause it let's me achieve results very fast (another crucial aspect in live sound), faster than you on your desk and do things you cannot achieve with other desks, but also 'cause it's already pretty close to my 'dream desk' - which might actually materialize! there is (at least) one manufacturer who seems to listen to the pros and experts and not so much to the masses; funny the concept is pretty far from what you think is driving the market (and closer to what i outlined in my previous post)...
Old 19th October 2019
  #12
Super Moderator
 
Remoteness's Avatar
I love the fact that if you but the dPack Plugin package any current or future dLive plugins will be available at no extra charge.

I'm seriously considering getting this desk for our smaller portable location recording dates!
Old 19th October 2019
  #13
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Remoteness View Post
I love the fact that if you but the dPack Plugin package any current or future dLive plugins will be available at no extra charge.

I'm seriously considering getting this desk for our smaller portable location recording dates!
I’m seriously considering it for small/medium fly dates.
Old 20th October 2019
  #14
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Samc View Post
I’m seriously considering it for small/medium fly dates.
...while i might get a 12-fader cut down version from my favourite supplier!
Old 20th October 2019
  #15
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by deedeeyeah View Post
...while i might get a 12-fader cut down version from my favourite supplier!
Is there a picture of that you can link to....?
Old 20th October 2019
  #16
Super Moderator
 
Remoteness's Avatar
Seems like a seriously smart move if you ask me!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Samc View Post
I’m seriously considering it for small/medium fly dates.
Old 20th October 2019
  #17
Super Moderator
 
Remoteness's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by deedeeyeah View Post
...while i might get a 12-fader cut down version from my favourite supplier!
I asked the folks at the A&H booth at the 147th AES in NYC if there were other sizes of this desk and the guy replied, "not at this time."
Old 20th October 2019
  #18
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Samc View Post
Is there a picture of that you can link to....?
no, not officially available (but there are a few prototypes around).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Remoteness View Post
I asked the folks at the A&H booth at the 147th AES in NYC if there were other sizes of this desk and the guy replied, "not at this time."
thx for digging into things at a&h - but i was referring to another brand...
Old 13th November 2019
  #19
Here for the gear
Looks like it replaces their GLD series, which was a stripped down iLive of sorts. About the same price point.
Old 10th January 2020
  #20
Here for the gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by Samc View Post
I'm surprised nobody here is discussing this new console from A&H. Based on the price and features this is a more exciting product than the new Midas Heritage for most folks here:


Any live "hands on" experience with this Avantis yet ?


...?
Old 11th January 2020
  #21
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by ClhUdlejning View Post
Any live "hands on" experience with this Avantis yet ?


...?
No.
Old 11th January 2020
  #22
Gear Addict
 

We had one in the shop for a couple of days and bought 2. They're slated for a March delivery.
Old 11th January 2020
  #23
Super Moderator
 
Remoteness's Avatar
I'm seriously interested in buying one.

Thanks, for posting your thoughts, Jason.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jasonraboin View Post
We had one in the shop for a couple of days and bought 2. They're slated for a March delivery.
Old 12th January 2020
  #24
Gear Nut
 
anadelman's Avatar
I was able to play with one last week. Great console. Very substantial and easy to get around.

It was side-by-side with a dLive C3500. While the dLive is more powerful, the Avantis made the dLive look dated. Now I can't wait for firmware 2.0 of the dLive. I'm sure it will look more modern when it's released.
Old 12th January 2020
  #25
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by anadelman View Post
I was able to play with one last week. Great console. Very substantial and easy to get around.

It was side-by-side with a dLive C3500. While the dLive is more powerful, the Avantis made the dLive look dated. Now I can't wait for firmware 2.0 of the dLive. I'm sure it will look more modern when it's released.
can you be a bit more specific? what sets the new desk above the old model? and can you compare to other brands?


p.s. regarding 'modern looks': a major update to the digico' sd series some time ago made them look more 'vintage'?!
Old 12th January 2020
  #26
Gear Nut
 
anadelman's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by deedeeyeah View Post
can you be a bit more specific? what sets the new desk above the old model? and can you compare to other brands?


p.s. regarding 'modern looks': a major update to the digico' sd series some time ago made them look more 'vintage'?!
By old model, I assume you mean the GLD? For starters, this is a mini dLive. It runs the same processors as the dLive and utilizes the same I/O devices as the dLive whereas the GLD was a line all by itself.

The 2 large touchscreens make this simple and intuitive to use. And being a mini dLive, should sound equally as good.

This is a BEAST in terms of structural quality. I picked this desk up. This is NOT an X32, M32 or even a Wing. WAY MORE QUALITY!

If I was looking to buy a new desk today, I'd have to seriously consider the Avantis.
Old 12th January 2020
  #27
Gear Addict
 

I'm old enough to have mixed and toured with analog consoles. I miss being able to look down at the desk and see what I have eq'd, where my mic pres are set, then look to the side and see all the compressor gains reduction meters. I think it's incredibly powerful to have visual feedback of what's going on in your mix.

I think that above all else, converter rate, preamp design, etc., the ability to get to the parameter you want to change quickly and visual feedback are the most important features of a console, or at least the fastest way to a great mix. I don't need 144 inputs and 64 outputs. Most of what I am doing tops out at 40 inputs. But at a festival, you don't get sound checks and are often mixing bands you are not familiar with. So these design features become even more important.

What the Avantis has over the Dlive is more screen space and a layout that gives you more information. The screen layout also lines up with the faders, which is super helpful.

I don't rely on a bunch of encoders. Even on a CL I find myself using touch to turn. I think this comes from touring with an S3L and relying on the mouse scroll wheel to change parameters. That said, there are enough encoders to satisfy most users, though they are not dedicated to one function.

I think the Avantis is by far the best value out there. Unless I've made some assumptions as to its functionality, I think it will be great for mixing bands. It sounds great, has all the features most engineers need, has 24 faders, is easy to navigate, and the comp models are plenty for me.
Old 13th January 2020
  #28
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jasonraboin View Post
I'm old enough to have mixed and toured with analog consoles. I miss being able to look down at the desk and see what I have eq'd, where my mic pres are set, then look to the side and see all the compressor gains reduction meters. I think it's incredibly powerful to have visual feedback of what's going on in your mix.

I think that above all else, converter rate, preamp design, etc., the ability to get to the parameter you want to change quickly and visual feedback are the most important features of a console, or at least the fastest way to a great mix. I don't need 144 inputs and 64 outputs. Most of what I am doing tops out at 40 inputs. But at a festival, you don't get sound checks and are often mixing bands you are not familiar with. So these design features become even more important.

What the Avantis has over the Dlive is more screen space and a layout that gives you more information. The screen layout also lines up with the faders, which is super helpful.

I don't rely on a bunch of encoders. Even on a CL I find myself using touch to turn. I think this comes from touring with an S3L and relying on the mouse scroll wheel to change parameters. That said, there are enough encoders to satisfy most users, though they are not dedicated to one function.

I think the Avantis is by far the best value out there. Unless I've made some assumptions as to its functionality, I think it will be great for mixing bands. It sounds great, has all the features most engineers need, has 24 faders, is easy to navigate, and the comp models are plenty for me.
funny you mention two vastly different kind of surfaces: the one known from analog desks with all feedback coming from knobs and fader and the one known from digital desks with all feedback coming from screens.

i much prefer getting visual feedbacks from both knobs/faders and screens so i fear the advantis will not find its way in to my warehouse - pretty sure it will satisfy many engineer's needs though (and by comparison makes some other desks look rather silly and overpriced).
Old 13th January 2020
  #29
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by deedeeyeah View Post
funny you mention two vastly different kind of surfaces: the one known from analog desks with all feedback coming from knobs and fader and the one known from digital desks with all feedback coming from screens.

i much prefer getting visual feedbacks from both knobs/faders and screens so i fear the advantis will not find its way in to my warehouse - pretty sure it will satisfy many engineer's needs though (and by comparison makes some other desks look rather silly and overpriced).
I'm not aware of a digital console that gives you processing values on encoders for more than the selected channel. An SD5 I guess gives you much more, but at 10x cost. Same with PM10. What's in your warehouse?

I looked at Heritage D pics and while there are more dedicated knobs, they don't have OLEDS to display values with them. Soundcraft Vi series seems to be the closest, but they have zero market penetration in the US. I'm not sure why.
Old 13th January 2020
  #30
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jasonraboin View Post
I'm not aware of a digital console that gives you processing values on encoders for more than the selected channel. An SD5 I guess gives you much more, but at 10x cost. Same with PM10. What's in your warehouse?

I looked at Heritage D pics and while there are more dedicated knobs, they don't have OLEDS to display values with them. Soundcraft Vi series seems to be the closest, but they have zero market penetration in the US. I'm not sure why.
while two (or more) screens are better than one and touch screens are better than displays, imo it's very unfortunate that most manufacturers have been going down the 'screen' route and keep cutting down on knobs...

(plus keep copying what i call 'design mistakes' from each other but that's another topic)

...so there are not many desks which i truly enjoy working with (getting feedback from both rotary pods, faders and screens, with processing capability of my liking and which allow for speed of use) - frankly, i don't know of any desk in the lower price range which achieves this - and yet i hope with every new desk coming out that things will change for the better!


the heritage d imo draws attention very much to the screens (you can attach a multitude to the desk); i don't like the processing on the sd series much, yamaha imo is too slow to use (and also lacks features which to discuss imo is beyond the scope of this thread) and both are way too expensive for what they do, the ssl is screen oriented too which goes for cadac's as well; the vi's imo could have ruled live sound if they woudn't have messed up their software (making them very unreliable before sw 4.8) so for my needs there's not much left...

...besides (maybe calrec), lawo, stagetec and studer. it's the latter which i'm mostly using and which are at my warehouse - highly recommended! (they start about four times the price of an advantis though)
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Allen & Heath Avantis.-20191129_203004.jpg  
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