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Need suggestions on small church loudspeaker selection
Old 29th March 2019
  #1
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Need suggestions on small church loudspeaker selection

Mother-in-law has asked me to give her little old small town church a new sound system (as well as some video and streaming solutions). I've agreed to help out for some reason...

Church is wood and drywall mostly. Sanctuary has roughly 16ft high ceilings. Sanctuary seats about 150 people, but I think they only get half that on a good sunday. The church is populated by mostly old white folks and the sound system would mostly be reproducing speech, choir, organ, piano, and the occasional karaoke CD with one or two people singing over it at relatively low volume. So, probably anything 100Hz and below wouldn't do them any good. I'll attach some photos so you can get a look. It's a lovely old church and I don't want to ruin the aesthetic with black monolith speakers everywhere.

Here's a video of the place:
YouTube

=========== What I had in mind so far ===========
I roughed out a 3D model of what I was initially thinking; Several light weight low wattage white mid-high speakers hung and delayed. The idea here being to keep the volume low and thoroughly distributed to promote clarity without irritating the people up front. I had done an install with Bose Panaray 502a speakers in the past (specs say 120 degree H and 70 degree V coverage). That's what I've put in the model, but I'm not married to that make / model.

What's a good value manufacturer that might make what I'm looking for? Any specific make / model recommendations? Just learned about Danley today. Don't know anything about their prices.

Thanks in advance.
Attached Thumbnails
Need suggestions on small church loudspeaker selection-sound-system.jpg   Need suggestions on small church loudspeaker selection-pano_20180610_122030.jpg   Need suggestions on small church loudspeaker selection-pano_20180610_122103.jpg  
Old 29th March 2019
  #2
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Thinking now I might try Nexo 24ID...
Old 30th March 2019
  #3
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The fewer the speakers, the clearer the sound. You will need something facing the choir area, but a single JBL CBT will do the entire congregational seating. The smaller area off the main sanctuary looks to have the advantage of occluding indirect and reflected sound and with the proper speaker and focus should be quite clear and natural sounding without need for any delay speaker(s).

Two other issues would be:

1. Ceiling fans and the chattering HF reflections off the blades.

2. Sound on the video indicates the likelihood that some form of treatment options (whole building) may help in ways which speaker type and placement cannot. The YTube video ambient sound is troublesome.

Last edited by Wyllys; 30th March 2019 at 06:03 AM..
Old 30th March 2019
  #4
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Especially given the demographics of the church, if they don't have an assistive listening system, consider getting one as part of this upgrade. They can make a big difference for people who need it. Listen and Williams are two of the big companies for this, and both are known for having quite good customer service (and equipment that works well). We happen to have a little Listen system in my church, and it works nicely for us, at least so far as I can tell as someone who doesn't need to rely on it.

Otherwise, I don't think I can add much to what Wyllys has said (which seems to me spot-on).
Old 30th March 2019
  #5
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Thanks, Drew, and good call on the hearing assist. As to designing systems which will have to be simple to operate and stable in the long term, two principles apply:

1. K.I.S.S. and...

2. Never give them an option you don't want them to take.
Old 30th March 2019
  #6
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So you think maybe just 2 or 3 speakers for the FOH instead of 6 Wyllys? Do I have the right idea as far as speaker position? (Assuming I address as much of the acoustics as I can first.)
Old 30th March 2019
  #7
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Maybe a center cluster would be preferable to spaced pairs of speakers for the first 5 pews?
Old 30th March 2019
  #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thefunkybeat View Post
So you think maybe just 2 or 3 speakers for the FOH instead of 6 Wyllys? Do I have the right idea as far as speaker position? (Assuming I address as much of the acoustics as I can first.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wyllys View Post
The fewer the speakers, the clearer the sound. You will need something facing the choir area, but a single JBL CBT will do the entire congregational seating. The smaller area off the main sanctuary looks to have the advantage of occluding indirect and reflected sound and with the proper speaker and focus should be quite clear and natural sounding without need for any delay speaker(s).

Two other issues would be:

1. Ceiling fans and the chattering HF reflections off the blades.

2. Sound on the video indicates the likelihood that some form of treatment options (whole building) may help in ways which speaker type and placement cannot. The YTube video ambient sound is troublesome.
One for the congregation, two small JBL Control on the back of the columns for the choir nook.

Here's a link for reference:

CBT Series Products | JBL Professional

Control 1 Pro Products | JBL Professional
Old 30th March 2019
  #9
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I’m not as big a fan of the CBT as Wyllys tho it is one of their better efforts...& he’s right..fewer sources..avoid the reflective surfaces
I like the Sonics of Martin’s CDD series...if active I would use 2x CDDLive 12’s for main sanctuary..2x CDDLive 8’s. One each choir & rear...I believe you can dial delay into the preset. If passive you could move down to CDD10 for all..or any mix.
Old 30th March 2019
  #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wyllys View Post
One for the congregation, two small JBL Control on the back of the columns for the choir nook.
Whoops. For some reason my brain read "congregation" as "choir" the last time I read that. Thanks.

Wow... One speaker... That would be an interesting setup. Would be pretty easy to try out if I can find a dealer that would loan me one. I'll have to try that.
Old 30th March 2019
  #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MIKEHARRIS View Post
I’m not as big a fan of the CBT as Wyllys tho it is one of their better efforts...& he’s right..fewer sources..avoid the reflective surfaces
I like the Sonics of Martin’s CDD series...if active I would use 2x CDDLive 12’s for main sanctuary..2x CDDLive 8’s. One each choir & rear...I believe you can dial delay into the preset. If passive you could move down to CDD10 for all..or any mix.
Thanks Mike, I'll look into those. So, if I'm reading your post right, you're suggesting 4 speakers; 2 FOH, 1 delay for back audience, and 1 for choir area? Would the 2 for FOH be spaced pair, or put together in the center? (After looking them up, I'm guessing you're suggesting putting 2 together in the middle rather than spacing them out to avoid the reflective stain glass windows and walls.)

Last edited by thefunkybeat; 30th March 2019 at 01:29 PM..
Old 30th March 2019
  #12
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If you get the right speaker in the right place I think you'll find a delay speaker for the rear area superfluous.

Mike...

If you're going up-scale, Iconyx is a great sounding steerable solution, but not a DIY installation.
Old 30th March 2019
  #13
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I can hear the processing in steerable RH. I was a Emilar dealer pre RH and have followed for years.
Personally...The CDD series is the first truly impressive sounding speaker since the UPA-1A.
Bi-amped in the Live series & with their variable dispersion I believe even the 8 would sound better in that room than any column speaker..Regardless of cost.
They are not designed to be arrayed. One left and one right in the center of the left and right walls will cover the very front rows...and the pattern tapers back keeping the signal off the left & right walls.
Old 30th March 2019
  #14
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I certainly agree that the 7-speaker array you show is likely to be difficult to optimize, given the multiple sources and rather minimal pattern control of the small Bose speakers. But I'll differ with Willys in the center array . . . while I do like center arrays in certain situations, this room can be boiled down to a "wide-to-narrow" shape (going front to back) . . . and center clusters intrinsically really want to work the other way (narrow-to-wide). This will make it a challenge to get anything other than poor coverage to the front corners, and be faced with a build-up of mid-bass energy below the center array (where its pattern control poops out) . . . and you'll probably have a bit more reflected energy off the dividing wall (the back wall of the front section) and side walls than is optimum.

I also think that you probably want to avoid a delay fill for the back section . . . there are already so many architectural elements that seem to make it feel like two rooms stuck together, and I think that the delay-speaker approach would make it feel more that way acoustically . . . that is, reinforce the notion for the people in the back section that the service is actually occurring in the room next door, not in the room in which they're sitting.

My instincts thus to go towards a left-right configuration, arranged basically to throw from the front corners towards their far opposite corner of the back section. Mike mentioned the Martin CDD series, which I do like . . . but keep in mind that the real magic of the asymmetrical horn occurs above the crossover point; below about 1.5KHz they're just like any other reflex box, with rather limited pattern control. With the split-chancel arrangement this might (or might not) be an issue for feedback, depending on the overall room acoustics, mic placement/type, etc. etc. For more traditional point-source boxes, I'd probably suggest you look at designs with a midrange horn, extending down to the 500Hz range.

You mentioned Danley, of which I'm a huge fan . . . of their line, I'm thinking a pair of SM96s would be a great fit. They have a combination of evenness through their intended coverage range, with a smooth and sharp cut-off as soon as you move outside it . . . really quite uncanny to hear in person. For the choir, perhaps a SH-95 or SH-75 . . . you'll still want good pattern control up front to keep this energy out of the clergy/lectern/pulpit mics.

A proper EASE analysis could give your a bit more hard predictive data here . . . given that you already seem to have a 3D model done (Sketchup?), it could be quite economical to do without having to pay for a site visit. Just be sure to add in the ceiling accurately, and the front-corner wall step-out would be nice to include to model speaker placement accurately.
Old 30th March 2019
  #15
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Just logged in to look over the classifieds to see whether there were any conversation here regarding steerable speakers, and stumbled upon this thread. The reason being - that I recently acquired a 2-year old unused pair of Heinz-Renkus IC16-RN ICONYX (which Wyllys mentioned in his post).

My local church, which is significantly larger than your mother-in-law's, uses a pair of Mayer's Sound CAL 64 arrays. CAL is competing technology to ICONYX. Despite the church's vast 22,000-square-foot area (recently built to triple capacity), and its hard surfaces/non-uniform floor-plan (in common with you in-laws' church), the speech and music are very clear and free of reverberation.

Having all my experience in the area of studio monitors (I'm a huge ATC fan), I was totally unfamiliar with the digitally-steerable approach until recently. In layman's terms, what digitally-steerable columns do is apply an active speaker array (in the case of the IC16-RN - 16 individually-powered 4" coaxial drivers), together with DSP technology, to focus the sound to the audience and eliminate reflections. They refer to it as 'beam technology' ...focus sound waves toward intended audience while eliminating reflections off ceiling/floors and side walls.

The downside is that this technology is not cheap. A single column can cost $10k plus. Not sure that's within the church's budget.

Good luck, and I'm sure you'll be able find what they need. There's plenty of good folks here to advise.

BTW, nice CAD layout!

-Marcel

Last edited by marcjs; 30th March 2019 at 09:32 PM.. Reason: typo - doh!
Old 31st March 2019
  #16
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Lest this thread turn into another "which speaker's best" debacle, I'll just refer back to my initial response focusing on the "less is more" aspect of the proper solution.
As can be heard on the video, the room is terribly lively. Listen to the kids voice and the conversational bleed coming up from the lower level kitchen/fellowship hall.
The dropped ceiling "acoustical panels" appear to have been painted and that means what was intended to be a relatively low-reflection surface has been changed into another large reflective surface.

No matter what speakers you put in, the essential problems regarding clarity and intelligibility spring from the room acoustics. Once identified, these are fairly easily made less critical without great expense or technical crutches and with little change in the appearance of the space. The main part of the sanctuary appears to be no more than 1200 sq ft with the stated capacity of 150 folks max and half that on a "good Sunday".

The ultimate answer is...42. The problem is the real question is unknown.
Old 31st March 2019
  #17
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Wow! Great input guys, thanks!

Just some of the notes I've got so far:

1. K.I.S.S.
2. 1 or 2 speakers for main FOH
3. Delay probably not necessary
4. Do what you can for the acoustics
5. Work on a hearing assist system (they have one, but it probably could be improved)
6. Don't give them an option you don't want them to take.

Definitely going back to the drawing board on my initial design. Will post any new redesigns I do.


Wyllys - Yeah, those ceiling tiles are a concern. I don't know that anyone had acoustics in mind when those were made. I'm not sure they're painted over acoustic panels, I just think they're wood or plaster or something. I'd be lucky if they provided a little diffusion. Mostly what concerns me about those is that since I want to hang the speakers I'll have to deal with removing or putting holes in them and I get the impression I'm not going to find replacements for these on many modern shelves and the church probably doesn't have a box of spares lying around if I break any.

marcjs - Thanks for the compliment on the 3D model. That's Sketchup Make 2017.

kirkus - Thanks for the Danley suggestions. I'm a little worried about feedback too. The pastor's been wearing a cheap wireless lapel on his tie and I'll be trying to talk him into a decent wireless headworn mic instead. Either side of the "stage" does have a little space for those lower frequencies to radiate out that would be further away from him, so I'll definitely take your spaced pair of speaker design suggestion into consideration. (Although I'm sure that setup creates other acoustic anomalies that I'm not considering or aware of that might still make feedback a challenge too.) I've never done an EASE analysis before, but I've always wanted to try. Yes, the drawing I did is from Sketchup. I would definitely take some proper measurements and add in all the details if I tried that. Thanks.
Old 31st March 2019
  #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thefunkybeat View Post
Yeah, those ceiling tiles are a concern. I don't know that anyone had acoustics in mind when those were made. I'm not sure they're painted over acoustic panels, I just think they're wood or plaster or something. I'd be lucky if they provided a little diffusion. Mostly what concerns me about those is that since I want to hang the speakers I'll have to deal with removing or putting holes in them and I get the impression I'm not going to find replacements for these on many modern shelves and the church probably doesn't have a box of spares lying around if I break any.
I may well be wrong, but the ceiling looked to me to be a pressed tin ceiling, not uncommon in older buildings (and quite sharp looking, in my opinion—particularly compared to standard acoustic tiles). If so, outright breakage should not be a problem.

Many (older) churches--and meeting halls and other similar venues--were not designed with very much thought given to acoustics. That's probably true for a fair few newer ones, too.
Old 31st March 2019
  #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrewE View Post
I may well be wrong, but the ceiling looked to me to be a pressed tin ceiling, not uncommon in older buildings (and quite sharp looking, in my opinion—particularly compared to standard acoustic tiles). If so, outright breakage should not be a problem.
I bet you're right DrewE.
Old 31st March 2019
  #20
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Somebody tell me if this is a stupid idea:
One Danley Mini180 for the FOH.
  • 180x90 coverage
  • 500watts continuous
  • 149Hz to 21kHz
  • single point for clarity
  • wide horizontal lets me push the speaker forward and away from the stage to avoid feedback, but still allows audience in the front corners good fidelity

Or am I just begging for standing wave issues with this?
Attached Thumbnails
Need suggestions on small church loudspeaker selection-mini180.jpg  
Old 1st April 2019
  #21
The mini180 is indeed an interesting solution. While I have not seen one in the wild yet, I have faith that anything Danley does will be well designed and their boxes are typically exemplary in terms of their response consistency throughout their stated coverage pattern.

Certainly having a single source will be advantageous in a few ways.

However, if you were to go with such a solution, I would recommend treating the walls with good quality acoustic absorption to reduce reflections. There are a variety of options available to maintain a nice aesthetic. You can further minimize the impact of reflections by keeping the speaker relatively high so that the downward angle enables the reflections to head towards the floor.

While you have said that low end is not a requirement, adding something like their TH-mini would probably be enough just to round out the sound, particularly if they are doing AV playback.

Solutions such as the RH ICONYX, CAL, or EAW DSA are also viable tools, particularly when working in very difficult acoustic spaces (such as cathedrals and other very reflective spaces). If you are concerned about the acoustics and not able to do much about it then these should be worth investigation.


PS: Take everything I say with a grain of salt, Wyllys believes I am a fraud.........
Old 1st April 2019
  #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thefunkybeat View Post
Somebody tell me if this is a stupid idea:
One Danley Mini180 for the FOH.
  • 180x90 coverage
  • 500watts continuous
  • 149Hz to 21kHz
  • single point for clarity
  • wide horizontal lets me push the speaker forward and away from the stage to avoid feedback, but still allows audience in the front corners good fidelity

Or am I just begging for standing wave issues with this?
I think it's a great idea . . . of course everything's going to have tradeoffs; it's just a matter of deciding where the biggest vulnerabilities are for this application, and choosing to minimize your exposure as much as possible.

Speaking very generally . . . the difference between larger and smaller PA speakers (of a given design approach and level of engineering competency) . . . in addition to the obvious of LF bandwidth and SPL capability, larger speakers can achieve higher directivity indices, and maintain them to a lower frequency. The result is that in a pragmatic sense is that they tend to "throw" further (via a better direct-to-reflected-SPL ratio at longer distances), and can have sharper, more defined edges to their intended coverage area.

So if you're wanting to cover 180 degrees from a center array and looking at the Danley line, a good comparison to consider against the Mini180 would be an array of three SM60F. While they both have a horizontal coverage angle of 180 degrees, the latter's higher directivity index will do a better job keeping sound from coming back into mics on the chancel, and have better coverage to the back of the room . . . in addition, I'm guessing that that the narrower vertical pattern will probably fit the room better geometrically. Having three elements will let you rig them as a "spherical array" (each pointed down individually, clustered tight at the bottom) rather than a "planar array" (sides stuck together and the whole thing pointed down) -- this reduces reflections from the side walls. You could also cheat a bit and add some gain to the center element versus the sides to further goose up the coverage in the back of the room.

But of course . . . there's a huge price difference between the Mini180 and a trio of SM60F. You could save a bit by using just one SM60F in the middle and two SM60Ms on the sides, but it's still nowhere near the price of a single Mini180. There's the rigging cost as well . . . but perhaps somebody left their large estate to this church, and budget isn't a problem.

The Mini180 might indeed be an excellent solution, given the resources that are available . . . I'm just trying to give some counterpoint to help examine where some of the compromises may be. All of the Danley products that I've heard and measured sound fantastic, and deliver exactly what they promise in a technical sense. The installation of a single well-engineered product also removes many variables of the installation and setup, helping to contain costs and improve predictability. Obviously you're aware of the LF restriction, and if reproducing "piano and organ" (from your first post) is a priority, then this might be an issue.

But if you're taking the approach of meeting your budget by giving up LF bandwidth and back-of-the-room coverage, and going with a hugely simplified system of top-quality equipment . . . this is absolutely the correct way to do it. You'll of course have to be cognizant of the compromises your making and how it relates to the congregation's expectations . . . but it's infinitely more recommendable than the all-too-common small-church approach of simply filling the place up with lots of cheap gear, and scratching their head when it doesn't work out well.
Old 1st April 2019
  #23
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Time for the old "broken record":

Priorities ranked in order of importance.

1. Establishing congregational expectations/determining desired level of reinforcement.
2. Knowing how to design and deploy a solution.
3. Choosing components.

It appears to me that up to now everything's backwards.
Old 1st April 2019
  #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wyllys View Post
Time for the old "broken record":

Priorities ranked in order of importance.

1. Establishing congregational expectations/determining desired level of reinforcement.
2. Knowing how to design and deploy a solution.
3. Choosing components.

It appears to me that up to now everything's backwards.
Point taken. All three of these things have been happening simultaneously. I was approached with some very basic requests, asked some follow up questions, got "I'm not sure, let me check with the others." as a response, worked on the basics of the design while I waited for answers, which caused me to come up with more questions, to which their initial response was again "I don't know, let me check with the others." and real answers have been trickling in. Meanwhile I've been continuing to work on the design which has evolved during my conversations with you fine folks.
Old 2nd April 2019
  #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thefunkybeat View Post
Point taken. All three of these things have been happening simultaneously. I was approached with some very basic requests, asked some follow up questions, got "I'm not sure, let me check with the others." as a response, worked on the basics of the design while I waited for answers, which caused me to come up with more questions, to which their initial response was again "I don't know, let me check with the others." and real answers have been trickling in. Meanwhile I've been continuing to work on the design which has evolved during my conversations with you fine folks.
Good to hear. To add a couple more cliches:

"Anyone with money can buy a Stradivarius. Knowing how to play it is another thing."

"This seems to be a solution in search of a problem."

Depending on expectations, in a room that small even a pair of good near field monitor speakers may be viable.

Good luck.
Old 2nd April 2019
  #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bambamboom View Post
PS: Take everything I say with a grain of salt, Wyllys believes I am a fraud.........
1. I called you a troll, not a fraud.
2. Putting me on your Ignore list and then posting a completely gratuitous reference to me is proof of the above.
3. You WILL see this and you WILL argue, but you started it...again and per usual.
Old 2nd April 2019
  #27
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Did I miss the answer to.....
How many microphones will be used
How the pastor will be miced
If treatment will be suggested for the chancel and nave

I’ll re-read in case I missed it
Old 2nd April 2019
  #28
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wyllys View Post
1. I called you a troll, not a fraud.
2. Putting me on your Ignore list and then posting a completely gratuitous reference to me is proof of the above.
3. You WILL see this and you WILL argue, but you started it...again and per usual.
1. No. You specifically suggested that I was fraudulent in my claim regarding my professional experience as an installer/designer. That's not cool - at all.

2. Apologies if it seems trollish to be upset about what is effectively a personal attack re my integrity. I will admit that little dig was not my best judgement, but don't make it sound like you have taken the high road.

3. You make this point whilst responding.... some irony there? There are 2 people on my Ignore list across the entirety of GS, both in the Live Sound forum and I am a long-time user across the entire forum. Something in the water in Live Sound?

I suggest you add me to your own ignore list and we can let that be the end of it.

OP, apologies for the disruption.
Old 2nd April 2019
  #29
Quote:
Originally Posted by MIKEHARRIS View Post
Did I miss the answer to.....
How many microphones will be used
How the pastor will be miced
If treatment will be suggested for the chancel and nave

I’ll re-read in case I missed it

I agree, OP, clarifying this more specifically would be helpful.

Understood that you may not have all the details.... that's not necessarily uncommon in such situations. Keep 'em coming.

Make sure to account for additional needs they could encounter which are beyond their current needs today. Relying on the congregation to provide this is likely not going to be as visionary as you need, so they may need a little prompting. Expect a facility like this to keep their speakers for at least 10 years or more. Ask/challenge the leadership regarding their vision for 5-10 years from now.... Will the facility ever be used by other groups, will their congregational demographics change, will there ever be a "youth band", etc? If so, you don't need to fully address those possibilities right now, but do need to avoid painting them into a corner regarding their options.
Old 2nd April 2019
  #30
Gear Maniac
 

You haven't told us what system the venue currently has, where it's letting you down (other than feedback), and what improvement you aim to achieve.

You did mention that the pastor suffers from feedback with his crappy lapel mic. Spend $50 or less on a headset mic and you might find the experience transformed.

Alternatively, you could spend $20,000 on a top notch PA, but still keep the mics the same, and it'll still be disappointing on voice.

I've recently been supporting a church moving into temporary accommodation for 9 months during a building refit. They're now in a large school hall and a small meeting room. In both cases, we took the decision to use the existing (very poor PAs). By insisting that headset mics are used, we've actually ended up with better speech reproduction than we ever had in the much better equipped church, where they persisted in using lapel mics. Poor PA, but delivers highly against requirements by addressing the weakest points.
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