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LOUD PA for practice Space
Old 29th January 2019
  #1
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LOUD PA for practice Space

I'm looking for a PA for my practice space
gonna primarily be for vocals only
it has to be LOUD.
the guitarists play with full stacks cranked.

After some research I'm thinking a pair of JBL PRX815 are gonna do the job
or should I be looking at something different?



we're using a Behringer XR12 mixer which should let us cut a bunch of unwanted feedback frequencies at high volumes.

--------------------------
we tried a pair of mackie thump and they were useless
One single QSC K10 speaker was better than the thump.
we really want a PA that can compete/overpower the marshall stacks.


edit... 1700$ budet, like the jbl PRX815s
Old 29th January 2019
  #2
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Wyllys's Avatar
 

Work these into your budget:

https://www.amazon.com/Peltor-Sport-...SIN=B06WGRCH7J
Old 29th January 2019
  #3
Gear Addict
Exclamation

Why are you practicing playing LOUD?
Old 29th January 2019
  #4
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"Cranked guitars" are a guaranteed recipe for a bad sounding band live. You are certain to bury the vocals (and pretty much everything else).

If you attempt to raise the volume on the vocals, you only get more guitar because the guitar is louder than the voice at the microphone. The largest PA in the world can not fix this problem.

If you ever want to have a band that sounds good, you must get the guitars to turn down. There is really no other way around it. If you are good at it, a vocalist can practice without a microphone with the band and everyone can here the vocals. This is extreme, but it can be done and is a good exercise to get everyone to start thinking about getting their stage volume down.

Unless you are playing a stadium, this would be my recommendation.

... and yes, the SRX815's will get loud; however, I would suggest the 812's which are more balanced for vocal reproduction.... and are lighter and smaller.

No speaker will save you if you don't get the ambient noise floor down.
Old 29th January 2019 | Show parent
  #5
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Mike M's Avatar
stage volume...

Quote:
Originally Posted by OneEng View Post

If you ever want to have a band that sounds good, you must get the guitars to turn down. There is really no other way around it. If you are good at it, a vocalist can practice without a microphone with the band and everyone can here the vocals. This is extreme, but it can be done and is a good exercise to get everyone to start thinking about getting their stage volume down.

Unless you are playing a stadium, this would be my recommendation.
If a band is playing a gig at a stadium, chances are that the guitar/bass/keyboard amps will all be mic'd anyway, thus no need to "crank it" unless there is a specific reason (other than being loud) to do so.

Loud does not always = good.
Old 29th January 2019
  #6
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We're never gonna be playing stadiums... but it sure feels more fun for everyone to be loud. We want the singer to have fun too.

Weight/size isnt an issue since the PA will be staying put.

Quote:
.. and yes, the SRX815's will get loud u
Are you suggesting the srx over the prx, is the price difference really worth it for our needs?

At the mic, the vocals are louder than the room ambiance. (Tested this with a recording). But its to be seen if a louder PA wont cause uncontrolled feedback once we get bigger speakers. The room is obviously a box that's got nasty reflections with minimal sound absorbers.
Old 29th January 2019 | Show parent
  #7
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besides the fact that loud levels mostly create all sorts of issues, imo the jbl's you mentioned are far from being 'loud' enough to overpower two full blown stacks: you'd need something like clair, martin or d&b etc. wedges getting driven from speaker controllers/system amps - problem with these is that you'd need to spend much more money, your room possibly can't take these levels so you still wouldn't get the singer to cut through/get on top of the guitars...

i therefore suggest you better spend money on getting the guitars back to more reasonable levels, either by using power soaks or going the digital way (kemper) - or use in-ears for monitoring!
Old 30th January 2019
  #8
Gear Addict
Exclamation

Oinkbanana

If you want to be able to HEAR if you ever reach 50 TURN iit down. Even LOUD groups like Aerosmith use small Marshall amps in the studio to record. They turn up a small amp to get the "sound" the guitar players want without being deaf before they were 30.

Save your hearing, you only get one set of ears.



Mike T.
Old 30th January 2019 | Show parent
  #9
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by OneEng View Post
"Cranked guitars" are a guaranteed recipe for a bad sounding band live. You are certain to bury the vocals (and pretty much everything else).

If you attempt to raise the volume on the vocals, you only get more guitar because the guitar is louder than the voice at the microphone. The largest PA in the world can not fix this problem.

If you ever want to have a band that sounds good, you must get the guitars to turn down. There is really no other way around it. If you are good at it, a vocalist can practice without a microphone with the band and everyone can here the vocals. This is extreme, but it can be done and is a good exercise to get everyone to start thinking about getting their stage volume down.

Unless you are playing a stadium, this would be my recommendation.
All of the above is subjective opinion and depends on who is playing and who is mixing...I’ve heard loud bands that sounded great even in small rooms, the volume, playing and sound mix were appropriate for the style of music and the event and that’s what counts.
Old 30th January 2019 | Show parent
  #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike M View Post
If a band is playing a gig at a stadium, chances are that the guitar/bass/keyboard amps will all be mic'd anyway, thus no need to "crank it" unless there is a specific reason (other than being loud) to do so.

Loud does not always = good.
The equipment being in the PA is irrelevant, they won’t sound the Same or have the Same emotional impact when they are played loudly...
Old 30th January 2019
  #11
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I would recommend going for inear in your rehearsal space.
It can be done quite cheap with a small digital mixer like the Soundcraft UI16, shur 215 inear and cheap headphoneamps.
Drums can be miced with a mic for kick, snare and one overhead.
At least that saved the day for my own band with a loud drummer (we play sludge/doom metal).
Old 30th January 2019
  #12
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Omg.
Were probably already deaf and nearing 40
And we wear ear protection
And playing loud is more about the physical element of sound than tone.

Yes, total watts (15amp breaker...) is definitely a limitation were working with.
If guitars can be dumb loud.. why cant vocals?

Qsc k12 better for this?
Old 30th January 2019 | Show parent
  #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oinkbanana View Post
Omg.
Were probably already deaf and nearing 40
And we wear ear protection
And playing loud is more about the physical element of sound than tone.

Yes, total watts (15amp breaker...) is definitely a limitation were working with.
If guitars can be dumb loud.. why cant vocals?

Qsc k12 better for this?
I predict that you will have a problem with feedback. Before we went inear, we had 2 Yamaha DSR 112 (comparable to the qsc k12) and it was barely quite loud enough when screaming and shouting before feedback came into play (and I am a live sound engineer and know how to get rid of feedback and know when too much is too much).
Old 31st January 2019 | Show parent
  #14
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Wyllys's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by oinkbanana View Post
Omg.
Were probably already deaf and nearing 40
And we wear ear protection
And playing loud is more about the physical element of sound than tone.

Yes, total watts (15amp breaker...) is definitely a limitation were working with.
If guitars can be dumb loud.. why cant vocals?

Qsc k12 better for this?
You may be mistaking loudness for intensity. The most intense sound of all is the silence of a significant other when you've f***ed up royally.
Old 31st January 2019 | Show parent
  #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tenderboy View Post
I know how to get rid of feedback and know when too much is too much).
I can cut 8 bands of parametric narrow with eq
Set up gates
Hypercardioid mics with placement consideration
Some foam and **** on the walls to kill reflections...

Any other tips?
Old 31st January 2019 | Show parent
  #16
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Wyllys's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by oinkbanana View Post
I can cut 8 bands of parametric narrow with eq
Set up gates
Hypercardioid mics with placement consideration
Some foam and **** on the walls to kill reflections...

Any other tips?
Fight club...
Old 31st January 2019
  #17
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No.
But jbl815 won't be really louder than dsr112 and won't compete against 2 full stacks.
Old 3rd February 2019
  #18
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turning the guitar amps down is the #1 suggestion - otherwise as they turn up, vocals turn up and it becomes a volume war.

Where are the amps and PA speakers? For practice, don't set up like a show; have the PA speakers up on stands facing towards you, and consider doing the same with the amps.

Guitar players who say they can't get their tone without cranking the amp may be right, but that doesn't mean it's a suitable amp for a practice. Either bring a lower wattage practice amp, turn down the master volume, or buy an attenuator to crank the power amp without the resulting volume.

You're solving a guitar amp loudness with the PA, and it will never work. The guitar players will continue to turn up in response. Don't get tinnitus like I did - turn things down. Ensure the drummer is working on dynamics, or uses other sticks. Yes, most drummers hate Hot Rod sticks, but for practice they lower drum volumes dramatically.
Old 3rd February 2019 | Show parent
  #19
Gear Addict
Smile

Quote:
Originally Posted by nedorama View Post
turning the guitar amps down is the #1 suggestion - otherwise as they turn up, vocals turn up and it becomes a volume war.

Where are the amps and PA speakers? For practice, don't set up like a show; have the PA speakers up on stands facing towards you, and consider doing the same with the amps.

Guitar players who say they can't get their tone without cranking the amp may be right, but that doesn't mean it's a suitable amp for a practice. Either bring a lower wattage practice amp, turn down the master volume, or buy an attenuator to crank the power amp without the resulting volume.

You're solving a guitar amp loudness with the PA, and it will never work. The guitar players will continue to turn up in response. Don't get tinnitus like I did - turn things down. Ensure the drummer is working on dynamics, or uses other sticks. Yes, most drummers hate Hot Rod sticks, but for practice they lower drum volumes dramatically.
Besides Tinnitus, musicians that play too loud for too long go deaf. First you lose the ability to heard certain frequencies, then you turn up more so you can hear them. It doesn't work. There have been big name acts that had key people lose almost all of their hearing which in some cases effectively ended their careers. How soon do these musicians intend to start wearing hearing aids? Even they don't work if you're already deaf.

The best way to handle stage volume is to use small stage amps that guitar players can crack up enough to overdrive so they get the sound they want without playing at 120 db. Put a lid on the volume.

Use front of house PA system to carry the vocals so the audience can hear the vocals and the music. A good sound man can blend the FOH so the band sounds balanced and doesn't play louder than necessary.

Most of the people that go to clubs and small to medium size events to hook up. The band and the music is secondary. Play too loud and you won't have any gigs and you won't be able to hear.
Old 11th October 2020
  #20
Gear Maniac
 

This thread was embarrassing, bloody hell have some fun. Cream were loud as ****. I wasn’t there. Quit whining.
Old 13th October 2020 | Show parent
  #21
Youre one of THOSE people

Quote:
Originally Posted by Samc View Post
All of the above is subjective opinion and depends on who is playing and who is mixing...I’ve heard loud bands that sounded great even in small rooms, the volume, playing and sound mix were appropriate for the style of music and the event and that’s what counts.
No. Loud especially in a small room is uncomfortable to 99% of people that arent in "the loud band". I found in small bars/places and such that if you have to shout into the ear of the person youre trying to talk to then its too loud. Most of the time i will notice that many people will just leave or everyone instantly decides they need a smoke break and will stand outside. It does not matter the type of music. Loud is still loud.

Something else i want to bring up. Is as soon as you introduce a vocal mic and PA. Especially in a small space. You will effectively amplify everything else. Not just get "louder vocals". Oh and theres not much you can do about it. Setting a noise gate wont work if the drummers bashing because the guitars are cranked, and the bass rig is booming because everything else is loud.

I mean sure try it. Get the biggest baddest PA you can. But its still going to be limited to the size of the room. And the amount of gain before feedback you can achieve. Im willing to bet youll have the PA/MONITOR eq all notched out across the board in order to prevent feedback. That would mean your stage noise is too loud.
Old 13th October 2020 | Show parent
  #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coreyspencer View Post
No. Loud especially in a small room is uncomfortable to 99% of people that arent in "the loud band". I found in small bars/places and such that if you have to shout into the ear of the person youre trying to talk to then its too loud. Most of the time i will notice that many people will just leave or everyone instantly decides they need a smoke break and will stand outside. It does not matter the type of music. Loud is still loud.

Something else i want to bring up. Is as soon as you introduce a vocal mic and PA. Especially in a small space. You will effectively amplify everything else. Not just get "louder vocals". Oh and theres not much you can do about it. Setting a noise gate wont work if the drummers bashing because the guitars are cranked, and the bass rig is booming because everything else is loud.

I mean sure try it. Get the biggest baddest PA you can. But its still going to be limited to the size of the room. And the amount of gain before feedback you can achieve. Im willing to bet youll have the PA/MONITOR eq all notched out across the board in order to prevent feedback. That would mean your stage noise is too loud.
i'm sure sam would have gotten back to you and told you about his approach, experience and conclusions (which were in contrast of most of what you mentioned in your post quoted above)!

unfortunately, he died earlier this year (of covid)...

___


instead of sam, allow me to pick up two topics:

loud shows - when 'the who' did their first tour after a longer break, playing the whole quadrophenia album, they were loud! loud in the sense that you would have needed to raise your voice considerably to talk to your neighbour (my rough estimate would be around 100dBA leq/1h or a bit more at foh)...
..and i tell you what: it was bloody brilliant! and iirc, no one left the venue!

___


loud stages/small venues - (both sam and) i experienced shows which measured ridiculously loud on stage, both in small bars or at huge festivals: it's absolutely no pleasure to mix monitors sitting behind stacks of marshalls but if the band is into high volume, then you better learn to deal with it as an engineer!

if you don't like it that loud, no one forces you to attend these shows or go on tour with a loud band - also worth noting that most 'war stories' date from the last century: across europe (and elsewhere), shows need to stay within limits! in my country, limits depend on the venue (and a few more things). the venue i'm working in regularly has a limit of 97dBA leq/1h; some techs max it out and it 'feesl' soft, other bands measure way lower and yet things 'feel' terribly loud.

my experience has been that if the band is very good and hence almost mixes 'itself', even relatively high levels still feel very comfortable - others say its an art to mix loud but good...
Old 13th October 2020
  #23
There is a huge difference between a loud concert and a loud bar gig. For example 95dB outside or in a 44,000 sqft venue is different than 95dB in a 4,000 sqft Bar. There is also a huge difference in dealing with the stage volume and managing the PA volume, in both situations.... my experience has been that the monitor mix is really only for hearing yourself when youre playing, and the PA is for sound reinforcement (makes what your playing louder) long story short its just easier to control the PA/FoH sound when the stage volume is not as loud or louder. So far I have only mixed bar gigs, and ran rehersal spaces, so I only have that as personal experience.
Old 13th October 2020
  #24
Or maybe it only seems like theres a difference?
Old 13th October 2020 | Show parent
  #25
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imo there are (at least) two different aspects in which there's a huge difference between our two scenarios:

mixing nothing but foh on large stages/outdoors with all the latest and greatest gear is way more easy than mixing both foh and monitors in small bars with mostly limited resources!

and let's assume that spl levels measure the same in those two environments, the ratio between direct sound (which you can control in both situations albeit a bit less in bars) vs reflected sound (which you cannot control indoors) vs diffuse sound (there isn't any in small places) is radically different.

___


of course it helps tremendously to keep stage levels down in small places unless the band is very well balanced in terms of their entire backline/what's coming off the stage and you need the pa but to put the voice on top (and maybe add a bit of low end) - but then, some folks (both on stage and in the audience) indeed don't bother...
Old 13th October 2020 | Show parent
  #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deedeeyeah View Post
i'm sure sam would have gotten back to you and told you about his approach, experience and conclusions (which were in contrast of most of what you mentioned in your post quoted above)!

unfortunately, he died earlier this year (of covid)...

...
I am so sorry to hear this :(. He was a very serious mix engineer with tons of advice he gave freely to those in this forum for years. He will be missed.

On the OT: A good band will play to the venue. A small venue can not be that loud simply due to physics. The biggest problem is the volume on stage that gets picked up by the mics.

Once levels get here, you really start having exponentially more difficulty getting a good mix in the venue.

I have also seen the people simply leave the room when levels get too high. Frequently, it isn't even the PA doing it but rather the cymbals and guitar amps. Both of these can chase away customers easily in a small room. The proverbial "ice pick in the ear" feeling.
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