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Connect Minidsp HD to Scarlett 6i6 Studio Monitors
Old 1 week ago
  #1
Gear Nut
 

Connect Minidsp HD to Scarlett 6i6

Good afternoon.

I do not know if this is the best sub-forum to publish this but I'm going to:

I have two Alpha Focal 65 monitors connected to the outputs of a Focuresite Scarlett 6i6. I just received a couple of subwoofers, and I intend to buy a Minidsp 2x4 HD to do xover, improve the frequency response and temporarily align all the speakers.


The 6i6 is connected to the PC with the USB cable. I see that Minidsp also has a USB cable to connect to the PC. Is there any configuration to use both devices at the same time? SPIDF would be an option?
I am confused with the order in which I must connect everything.

Thank you
Attached Thumbnails
Connect Minidsp HD to Scarlett 6i6-_mg_4380.jpg   Connect Minidsp HD to Scarlett 6i6-scarlett-6i6_rear-lr.png  
Old 1 week ago
  #2
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Dutchy15's Avatar
Hi,

Here's some basic info on your devices:

Focusrite 6i6: audio interface, 4 inputs (A/D) and 4 outputs (D/A) as well as a single stereo digital input and a single stereo digital output (both S/PDIF)
MiniDSP 2x4 HD: 2 input, 4 output DSP. It also features 2 channels of USB interfacing.


There two options here:

- Use the MiniDSP as your interface + x-over and don't use the Focusrite
- Use the Focusrite as your interface and use the MiniDSP as a monitor controller / x-over

The first option has the benefit of only using 1 D/A cycle whereas the second one gives you D/A, then A/D and then D/A again. The second option has the benefit of using the I/O that is not needed for feeding the speakers for something else (recording, hardware insert, etc). Also, it allows for use of the Focusrite's MIDI ports. Using both can be done with ASIO4ALL (windows) or CoreAudio although this might cause system instability and strange crashes.


Dutchy
Old 1 week ago
  #3
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dutchy15 View Post
Hi,

Here's some basic info on your devices:

Focusrite 6i6: audio interface, 4 inputs (A/D) and 4 outputs (D/A) as well as a single stereo digital input and a single stereo digital output (both S/PDIF)
MiniDSP 2x4 HD: 2 input, 4 output DSP. It also features 2 channels of USB interfacing.


There two options here:

- Use the MiniDSP as your interface + x-over and don't use the Focusrite
- Use the Focusrite as your interface and use the MiniDSP as a monitor controller / x-over

The first option has the benefit of only using 1 D/A cycle whereas the second one gives you D/A, then A/D and then D/A again. The second option has the benefit of using the I/O that is not needed for feeding the speakers for something else (recording, hardware insert, etc). Also, it allows for use of the Focusrite's MIDI ports. Using both can be done with ASIO4ALL (windows) or CoreAudio although this might cause system instability and strange crashes.


Dutchy
Thanks for the reply!

The second option you propose ... in what way would you connect the Minidsp to the 6i6? SPDIF? jack to RCA? I see a lot of connections on the devices and I'm confused.

It is essential to use the MIDI ports and the Focusrite drivers for the low latency and the comfort of its interface. If there is no option to integrate the MiniDSP and continue to benefit from the 6i6 I am not interested in changing the current configuration.
Old 1 week ago
  #4
Lives for gear
 
Dutchy15's Avatar
With the second option the only way to connect is via jack-RCA. The RCA input on the miniDSP is for analog signal only. It has a digital S/PDIF input but that's on optical...


Dutchy
Old 1 week ago
  #5
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dutchy15 View Post
With the second option the only way to connect is via jack-RCA. The RCA input on the miniDSP is for analog signal only. It has a digital S/PDIF input but that's on optical...


Dutchy
you mean I can not connect minidsp and 6i6 for S / PDIF?
Old 1 week ago
  #6
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Dutchy15's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doclad View Post
you mean I can not connect minidsp and 6i6 for S / PDIF?
Nope, doesn't look like it :/


Dutchy
Old 1 week ago
  #7
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dutchy15 View Post
Nope, doesn't look like it :/


Dutchy
In short, my purpose was the following:

-Make xover with the Monitors to cut the basses. It is not necessary to do it with the subwoofers because they have integrated xover.
-Use the "RoomEQ" file of REW to have a better frequency response.
- Temporarily align the speakers (although it may not be necessary).
-To continue enjoying the various options offered by the 6i6 sound card.

From what I see, something so simple is impossible. The truth is I do not understand.

Thank you for all your answers.


I want to ask another question regarding the temporal alignment taking advantage of this thread:

When is it necessary to apply the retraction on the monitors so that they sound at the same time with the woofers?
For example, if the best position for my subwoofer is 20 centimeters farther than one of the monitors (taking into account the distance between the ear and the cone of the speaker) how is the delay calculated?
If on the contrary, the distance is the same, no alignment is necessary, right?
I've heard that low frequencies take longer to reach the ears anyway ... so ... a trick to line up the subwoofers would be to put them closer than the monitors?

Excuse me if my questions are obvious. I'm a novice in acoustic issues.

Thank you.
Old 1 week ago
  #8
Gear Nut
 

I have this configuration in mind. Could it work?

And it seems that I could use the analog volume knob of the 6i6 and benefit from the line / instrument inputs and the midi device.

Is there something wrong with this configuration?
Attached Thumbnails
Connect Minidsp HD to Scarlett 6i6-minidsp_2x4_hd_diagram.png  
Old 1 week ago
  #9
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Dutchy15's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doclad View Post
I have this configuration in mind. Could it work?

And it seems that I could use the analog volume knob of the 6i6 and benefit from the line / instrument inputs and the midi device.

Is there something wrong with this configuration?
Nope, looks exactly like what I proposed

This will give you the best of both worlds with the only downside being the extra A/D-D/A cycle through the miniDSP. Not a huge deal with todays converter technology though.

Time alignment for speakers is a whole different game and I'd suggest taking your time to learn the basics before you go crazy on delays, all pass filters and other magic. You'll need to learn how to perform transfer function measurements and how to read them correctly. Bob McCarthy's "green bible" is a great place to start though it might take you a while to get through it.


Dutchy
Old 1 week ago
  #10
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dutchy15 View Post
Nope, looks exactly like what I proposed

This will give you the best of both worlds with the only downside being the extra A/D-D/A cycle through the miniDSP. Not a huge deal with todays converter technology though.

Time alignment for speakers is a whole different game and I'd suggest taking your time to learn the basics before you go crazy on delays, all pass filters and other magic. You'll need to learn how to perform transfer function measurements and how to read them correctly. Bob McCarthy's "green bible" is a great place to start though it might take you a while to get through it.


Dutchy
to understand the basics...if the distance of the speaker cones from the monitors and the subwoofers is the same...would a correction be necessary? What are the formulas involved in the calculation? I guess it's not about fixing it by ear.... I'm wrong?
Old 1 week ago
  #11
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Dutchy15's Avatar
Well, they most likely have different phase responses in the overlap area in which they will all operate (which the only area that matters for now). Something as simple as front and rear ported will already have a large influence on this, not to mention the differences in electronics and positioning in the room (leading to different modal patterns).

Plenty to think about and check, and too much for me to write down here or I might as well write a book about it


Dutchy
Old 1 week ago
  #12
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dutchy15 View Post
Well, they most likely have different phase responses in the overlap area in which they will all operate (which the only area that matters for now). Something as simple as front and rear ported will already have a large influence on this, not to mention the differences in electronics and positioning in the room (leading to different modal patterns).

Plenty to think about and check, and too much for me to write down here or I might as well write a book about it


Dutchy
This week I will do some measurements with REW and I will share them with you so that you can give me your advice.

Thanks Dutchy
Old 1 week ago
  #13
Lives for gear
 
Dutchy15's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doclad View Post
This week I will do some measurements with REW and I will share them with you so that you can give me your advice.

Thanks Dutchy

Looking forward! Taking useful measurements (i.e. containing little false information) and interpreting them correctly is a book on its own, curious to see what you come up with


Dutchy
Old 5 days ago
  #14
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dutchy15 View Post
Looking forward! Taking useful measurements (i.e. containing little false information) and interpreting them correctly is a book on its own, curious to see what you come up with


Dutchy
Hi!!

Here is the .mdat of my little room for the curious. 12'x8'x8'.
The measurement is with the satellites and the pair of subwoofers at the same time.

I have the two subwoofer on the sides. I spent an afternoon playing with the phase, the gain and the passive croosover to flatten the frequencies.
SPL chart shows +/-5 to 1/24 smoothing. Considering the dimensions of my room I think it is a very good result.

ETC seems good with the direct reflexes.
The problem is that I have absorbed the high frequencies too much. All my bass traps have a wooden board in the front, but the side panels, the cloud and the back panels have absorbed everything.
If I want to return life to the room, then impulses appear at -20db -20ms. I guess this is my commitment.
Any suggestions to return a little life? maybe a plugin?
Do you think the room is very dead?

In the spectogram you see a pretty good answer. Even so, there is a peak in 50hz that I could not kill in any way. It is not modal, because my lowest mode is 40hz. I do not know why there is that strange peak.

I would like you to tell me if I have phase problems. For some reason I can not see the Phase in REW.


In short, I am very happy.
Before starting to treatment my room, I listened the music in a 2.1 Logitech €120 placed in any way. The difference has been enormous.

I hope you give me some advice about what I can do to improve.

Thanks!!
Attached Thumbnails
Connect Minidsp HD to Scarlett 6i6-fr-empty-room.jpg   Connect Minidsp HD to Scarlett 6i6-fr-treatment-room.jpg   Connect Minidsp HD to Scarlett 6i6-spectogram-empty-room.jpg   Connect Minidsp HD to Scarlett 6i6-spectogram-treatment-room.jpg   Connect Minidsp HD to Scarlett 6i6-impulse-treatment-room.jpg  

Attached Files
File Type: mdat MyRoom.mdat (6.14 MB, 1 views)
Old 4 days ago
  #15
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Dutchy15's Avatar
So I opened your MDAT and the screenshot below is literally the first thing I see

For us to be able to say anything about possible phase conflicts between monitors and subs we'll need separate measurements on subs and monitors to see how the phase overlaps in the cross-over freq range. Also, we'll need specifics on the x-over settings (frequencies and slopes).

Other than that; congratulations on the room treatment! Those curves look very good and the difference the treatment made is huge according to the waterfall graph


Dutchy
Attached Thumbnails
Connect Minidsp HD to Scarlett 6i6-rew-nophase-snip.jpg  
Old 4 days ago
  #16
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dutchy15 View Post
So I opened your MDAT and the screenshot below is literally the first thing I see

For us to be able to say anything about possible phase conflicts between monitors and subs we'll need separate measurements on subs and monitors to see how the phase overlaps in the cross-over freq range. Also, we'll need specifics on the x-over settings (frequencies and slopes).

Other than that; congratulations on the room treatment! Those curves look very good and the difference the treatment made is huge according to the waterfall graph


Dutchy
Thanks for your answer.

I'm making a huge effort to fix my study, as you can see. Everything DIY. Bass traps have been a headache. The room is very small, therefore, it has not been easy to manage and distribute the space, even so I have soffits of 20" of thickness that have completely killed SBIR.

Regarding xover:

It is being a headache for me. My system is a 2.2.
2 focal alpha 65 + subwoofer yamaha yst-160sw + samson revolv rxa10s subwoofer. It is a discreet team, but sufficient for my purposes.
I would like the Focal not to reproduce LF, but I can not. I have no budget for an external DSP, unfortunately it is not an option at this time. So my option is some kind of plug-in, but unfortunately for some reason they do not work. How hard is it to find a free plug-in to make a simple xover between the speakers? It seems that yes, at least for me.

On the other hand, the .mdat that I have attached here is a measurement of the 4 speakers at the same time. The focals have an attenuator of LF but only up to -8db, therefore there has not been a real xover in this measurement, the 4 speakers reproduce LF.
The frequency response of 30hz-150hz I flattened it playing with the gain, the xover and the 0º-180º phase of the subwoofers. I must say that it has not been easy at all. A small movement in the gain of a subwoofer and the frequencies are completely broken. (Wtf?)..

I have another problem.

The graph you see is a sweep at -12db. If I do a sweep at -18db the graph has deep nulls in LF. The gain difference in the subwoofers is not executed in the same way. Why? For example, if I play music from my computer and upload the main volume (from winamp or even from my Focusrite 6i6) the frequency response in LF is deformed and I have to touch the gain / xover / phase change of one of the subwoofers.
Is very annoying.

I just want a free program to do simple xover between my satelites and the subwoofers. None of the proposals I received in this forum have worked for me. Rephase has not helped. When I import a file generated by REW, the only thing I can do is create a .txt file that I do not know what to do with it. The VST / plug-in for Winamp that I have tested for xover simply does not work. I know that maybe it's my ignorance and nothing else.

One option would be to use the Samson Resolv subwoofer to do passive xover. Do you think it is a good idea? It was not an option until now because I read that an active xover offers more possibilities. But honestly, after failing to find a plug-in, I think it's the most viable option. Then this would be the configuration:
The Focals connected to the Samson resolved with xover passive + sub yamaha.

As soon as I have the measurements of the 4 speakers separately, I'll attach the file.

Huge thanks
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