The No.1 Website for Pro Audio
 Search This Thread  Search This Forum  Search Reviews  Search Gear Database  Search Gear for sale  Search Gearslutz Go Advanced
Cables for flying PA speakers Reverb/Delay Processors (HW)
Old 1 week ago
  #31
Lives for gear
Perhaps. perhaps not since no structural information was provided by the OP. In my experience, I have seen a lot of horrible framing jobs covered up by finish layers. You couldn't tell how horrible it was without opening it up.

Here's an example of framing from a building that passed inspection by the codes inspector. There's one nail at the top of the floor joist that was obviously cut too short. The tip of another nail is visible, but it doesn't penetrate the floor joist.

Now imagine that this was hidden by a layer of drywall and you hung a 60lb speaker from it.
Attached Thumbnails
Cables for flying PA speakers-you-kidding-me.jpg  

Last edited by 2manyrocks; 1 week ago at 09:42 PM..
Old 1 week ago
  #32
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by hughshouse View Post
Sam, the two of us generally read from the same page however in this particular case two very important factors need to be considered. 1. Some states require certified union employees for erection of ancillary audio/video gear deployed in public places. 2. Structural engineers are not responsible for the 20x price markup of flying gear: E & O insurance premiums and more importantly substantial reserve accounts to pay lawyers for potential settlements is the responsible business model.
In my state of North Carolina when a registered structural engineer and the local bldg. inspector sign off on an installation after a final inspection we have satisfied our statutory requirements and liability insurance requirements as well.
Sam, structural engineers are not in the pricing business and while their requirements may very well create unexpected investment in my 50 years of working in this business I have never found there important service approaching 20x mark ups.
Hugh
We don’t have an argument about most of this, but as someone else pointed out, anytime you design and build safety equipment a totally different cost structure kicks in because of the special manufacturing and all the testing that’s involved. You can’t just drop the parts on a belt and let the robots assemble the finished part, you need specially trained technicians to perform certain tasks and parts have to be inspected every step of the way.

I remember having to buy a special X ray machine which allowed us to examine every weld that was made on every part of a special device that we were making, and among other things the part had to be tested by an independent lab before it was approved For its intended use...this kind of thing is not cheap and the part was priced accordingly.
Old 1 week ago
  #33
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by deedeeyeah View Post
what's astonishing is how 'safety' gets interpreted in very different ways in different parts of the world: looking from old europe, i'd say that op's issues don't require any rocket science and with regulations in place here, he could have proceeded to flying his gear long ago.


p.s. in my other life, i'm dealing with safety issues too: for the osce though...
Not saying or even suggesting that this is the situation here, but I don’t know of any progressive country where lay people are allowed to hang loads overhead in a public space...and some of the suggestions that were being offered are clearly dangerous to begin with.

Some of the specific laws might be different from one country to the next, but the general concept of guarding public safety is almost always the same...the speed limit might be different in different countries, but every country has strict road rules that are designed to maintain public safety.
Old 1 week ago
  #34
Lives for gear
 
mintaka007's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by parricide View Post
is there a thread anywhere on this forum that isnt an argument?
Yes, for sure, just not in "live sound". A couple people make sure pretty much every thread devolves into an argument in here. Many knowledgable people though, you just have to filter the holier than thou ones out.

Not to say the soapboxers don't have good points, they just have no clue how to articulate them in an useful way.

Maybe someday....
Old 1 week ago
  #35
Lives for gear
 
mintaka007's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2manyrocks View Post
Perhaps. perhaps not since no structural information was provided by the OP. In my experience, I have seen a lot of horrible framing jobs covered up by finish layers. You couldn't tell how horrible it was without opening it up.

Here's an example of framing from a building that passed inspection by the codes inspector. There's one nail at the top of the floor joist that was obviously cut too short. The tip of another nail is visible, but it doesn't penetrate the floor joist.

Now imagine that this was hidden by a layer of drywall and you hung a 60lb speaker from it.
I have been building for 25 years, and have seen just as much poor workmanship from professionals as I have from amateur homeowners, sometimes moreso. I think the reason for this is that the amateurs tend to overbuild and over-engineer out of fear of the structure being sub standard, whereas the professional is looking to do adequate work and maximize profit.

I am not going to enter this discussion from a knowledge perspective as it is not in my experience to fly speakers. I will tell you one thing though, if I were to do it I could guarantee it would be over engineered beyond the specs of whats needed to be sure of safety. But that is me, can't speak for others.
Old 1 week ago
  #36
Lives for gear
^you've seen enough poor workmanship to understand the risk. I think the temptation for the inexperienced is to assume that the structure is okay when someone more experienced would first want to thoroughly look at the structure because of having seen enough subpar work to not assume anything.
Old 1 week ago
  #37
Lives for gear
 

Fitting a window in someone’s house is not the same as hanging an unsprung load in a public space, especially when your design and work must undergo rigorous testing and inspection.

I did the security commission walk through at a multi stage festival yesterday...the second one in five days. I can attest to the fact that one has nothing to do with the other.

You can’t over-engineer something unless you understand the engineering that is necessary to do the job properly. Many people don’t understand why an eye bolt that is rated several times the weight of an object can’t be used to hang the object. Sometimes the lay-man type solutions to certain technical problems can be counterproductive and dangerous.

Adding more material means adding more weight and can actually weaken the very structure you’re trying to strengthen.
Old 1 week ago
  #38
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Samc View Post
...I don’t know of any progressive country where lay people are allowed to hang loads overhead in a public space...
well, pretty much in all of europe (including scandinavia) as long as you follow some basic rules; of course installations (of a certain calibre) need approval/inspection by officials, but the rule of law is way different outside the anglo-saxon world...
Old 1 week ago
  #39
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by deedeeyeah View Post
well, pretty much in all of europe (including scandinavia) as long as you follow some basic rules; of course installations (of a certain calibre) need approval/inspection by officials, but the rule of law is way different outside the anglo-saxon world...
Please define “installations (of a certain caliber)” because I live in France and I know that unqualified people cannot hang loads in a public space...even with an engineering degree I have to be certified to design hanging apparatus or hang loudspeakers.

If you hang anything and it falls and injures or kills someone here you are going to jail, no question about that. When Madonna’s stage fell in Marseille everybody who had anything to do with it was immediately arrested, and anybody who did not have the relevant certification were charged while the authorities investigated. You can’t just wing it here.
Old 1 week ago
  #40
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by mintaka007 View Post
Yes, for sure, just not in "live sound". A couple people make sure pretty much every thread devolves into an argument in here. Many knowledgable people though, you just have to filter the holier than thou ones out.

Not to say the soapboxers don't have good points, they just have no clue how to articulate them in an useful way.

Maybe someday....
Ah, the people who always come here to troll...
Old 1 week ago
  #41
Here for the gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Samc View Post
Please define “installations (of a certain caliber)” because I live in France and I know that unqualified people cannot hang loads in a public space...even with an engineering degree I have to be certified to design hanging apparatus or hang loudspeakers.

If you hang anything and it falls and injures or kills someone here you are going to jail, no question about that. When Madonna’s stage fell in Marseille everybody who had anything to do with it was immediately arrested, and anybody who did not have the relevant certification were charged while the authorities investigated. You can’t just wing it here.
I live in France too and I find unfortunately that we excel here at writing volumes of rules and regulations and then completely ignoring them. Health and safety especially is often (wrongly) neglected in many walks of life here. Example near me is a local (local government supervised) venue where l acoustics 112p boxes (quite heavy) are flown just on one chain each that I wouldn't trust with a bath plug. I don't often work (and never get to mix) at larger events (500+ people) but when I do I am often asked to make substantial electrical installations (3 phase 125+ amps) that I am not qualified to. I have refused to if unsupervised but I get funny looks. I am now training for a diploma in this mainly just to cover my self.
Old 1 week ago
  #42
Lives for gear
 

The primary point I was trying to make in post #28 is the fact that thanks to the 10th amendment of the US Constitution no federal statute exists to control and regulate flying audio/video gear. Various companies that manufacture devices for national distribution of these projects need to meet and exceed all existing pertinent state statutes. At the risk of injecting political philosophy into this discussion it is important to understand the fact that this is a sterling example of the inefficiency of "one size fits all" US national regulation. To the best of my knowledge no failures of flying audio/video gear in North Carolina have occurred in my life time: perhaps the simple coordination of a professional engineer and duly authorized local inspections that satisfy the state insurance regs is a much better and less expensive approach where it is possible.
Several years ago the John Walker business college here @ App. St. U had a very interesting seminar centered around tort law. The Micky D's coffee case was discussed at some length and apparently no business model change followed the "amos & andy jury award" originally offered and later reduced from the bench and ultimately settled for much less out of court. Drive by coffee is still served by most all vendors @ apx. 185 Degrees but over the past 20 years much better disposable containers are now in use. I know for a fact that most states that are considering tort law reform to reign in run away jury awards are dealing with angry trial lawyers and their lobby when considering more restrictive tort law legislation and limits.
Hugh
Old 1 week ago
  #43
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Samc View Post
Please define “installations (of a certain caliber)” because I live in France and I know that unqualified people cannot hang loads in a public space...even with an engineering degree I have to be certified to design hanging apparatus or hang loudspeakers.

If you hang anything and it falls and injures or kills someone here you are going to jail, no question about that. When Madonna’s stage fell in Marseille everybody who had anything to do with it was immediately arrested, and anybody who did not have the relevant certification were charged while the authorities investigated. You can’t just wing it here.
i was referring to the cultural and jurisdictional difference between the old and new world: around here, you simply cannot sue someone for compensation in the same way you can in the anglo-saxon world (well, you can but mostly without a reasonable chance of success) - which imo leads to a somewhat different take on quite a few things: i could post tons of examples i'm (still) allowed to do without official training, degree or certification. nevertheless, installations get clearance from authorities as long as i can show that i applied every trick of the trade.

as we speak of it, i'm in the process of planning things for a motorsport event and an airshow: temporary installations for the latter will have to go through the rigours of local, national and international authorities, during the planning stage, while being under construction and, assuming things turn out well again, will get final approval just very shortly before the event starts.

---

and then, we're not the only business stacking/flying our gear! in fact, most of our stuff is pretty basic compared to some temporary construction work...

---

i'm with you in so far that regulations keep getting stricter (especially in more centralized political systems as in france or former sovjet proxies) - anyway, welcome to europe!
Old 1 week ago
  #44
Lives for gear
Plaintiff lawyers in the USA are probably going to sue anyone that had anything to do with a failed install that results in substantial personal injury and let the jury decide how to apportion the fault and damages. If someone isnt insured to do this kind of work, they really should avoid any involvement with it.
Old 1 week ago
  #45
Lives for gear
 

I have a problem with uniform conclusions pertaining to the entire subject of tort law. 2manyrocks would have us believe there is a uniform national std. that informs a uniform tort law in the USA to govern flying audio gear: this is flat out not true. Individual state law pursuant to business liability exposure and insuring for the same will vary, in some cases widely, since there is no constitutional provision for federal legislation to regulate these activities.
Given the fact that we are overpopulated with ambulance chasing lawyers, exposure to law suits is a business fact of life: the necessity to know and understand where the state in which your activity occurs stands on these matters is critical. These facts should inform the type of work you might contract for with normal liability business insurance coverage that can vary greatly within the subject state ins. law.
Hugh
Old 1 week ago
  #46
Lives for gear
 

What Hugh said...this is evidenced by the fact that being certified in one state does not usually men certification in all states, or even the next state over.

Ignorance of local laws is not an excuse, it’s irresponsible.
Old 1 week ago
  #47
Lives for gear
Manufacturer A made the hanging assembly. Manufacturer B made the speaker. Contractor C was the general contractor. Subcontractor D did the framing. Installer E hung the speaker. It fell on an audience and caused substantial injuries. Who gets sued?
Old 1 week ago
  #48
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2manyrocks View Post
Manufacturer A made the hanging assembly. Manufacturer B made the speaker. Contractor C was the general contractor. Subcontractor D did the framing. Installer E hung the speaker. It fell on an audience and caused substantial injuries. Who gets sued?
if working together with other professionals seems to be too risky to you, i think you might have a problem... certainly in this field and maybe you then shouldn't be doing installations! but you could still use floor wedges :-)

Last edited by deedeeyeah; 1 week ago at 12:38 AM.. Reason: edited
Old 6 days ago
  #49
Lives for gear
 

I have no wish to be involved in a discussion that is not centered around obvious pragmatical realities.
1. Pursuant to subject state law the very minimum protocol should be (A) local bldg. inspector supervision of installation and corresponding liability Ins. coverage rider and (B) a structural engineering certification if either the local inspector or Ins. carrier might require it.
2. Some states have stringent requirements for special rigging certification and appliance certification: however these states have not been able to totally prevent poor implementation of critical flying gear.
3. Prevention of law suits is a moronic notion that is vested in ignorance of tort law. Anyone can be sued for about anything by almost anybody. In 2manyrock's hypothetical scenario all five would be sued along with the local building inspector whose sign off should have been required for permitting and ultimately will be holding the liability bag if all pertinent requirements had been met.
4. The entire subject is centered around shifting liability exposure whether it be a speaker, appliance and/or fitting manufacturer or a contractor. In most litigation of this sort the majority of cash that ultimately changes hands is between lawyers and not necessarily the plaintiff: This is certainly true in "nuisance suits"!
Hugh
Old 6 days ago
  #50
Lives for gear
 
mintaka007's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Samc View Post
Fitting a window in someone’s house is not the same as hanging an unsprung load in a public space, especially when your design and work must undergo rigorous testing and inspection.

I did the security commission walk through at a multi stage festival yesterday...the second one in five days. I can attest to the fact that one has nothing to do with the other.

You can’t over-engineer something unless you understand the engineering that is necessary to do the job properly. Many people don’t understand why an eye bolt that is rated several times the weight of an object can’t be used to hang the object. Sometimes the lay-man type solutions to certain technical problems can be counterproductive and dangerous.

Adding more material means adding more weight and can actually weaken the very structure you’re trying to strengthen.
Ground up construction from footings to roof on a 27 million dollar home is a bit different than fitting a window you snarky jag. Speak not of what you know nothing about. I am an actual professional at the absolute top level of my field sam.

I have had to do plenty of structural engineering as well on things that from an experience perspective i could see the architect and engineer messed up. calculating loads, sheer strength etc isnt that hard. In every field there are those that arent good at their jobs, and it is the job of us experienced to pick up that slack.

When flying speakers, for example, the weak point or point of failure is at the speaker or the structure its hung from. Even small cabling is rated far beyond the weight of the speaker, whereas the framed structure it is hung from might have only been originally designed To support drywall weight. on top of that, using lag eyelets vs throughbolt with appropriate blocking and plates is a recipe for disaster, but I've seen "professional" sound companies do this multiple times. A license doesn't make you competent.

You have no professional construction licensing or experience, and are not licensed or accredited in rigging, so why are you even in this thread sam?

Maybe stick to the discussions on running monitor boards, and refrain from insulting a 20 year licensed contractor like myself about construction.
Old 6 days ago
  #51
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by mintaka007 View Post
You have no professional construction licensing or experience, and are not licensed or accredited in rigging, so why are you even in this thread sam?
No construction or riggers license or major construction experience...I helped my dad build a house once. I don’t know any other qualified and/or competent engineers in this field with these qualifications, but some of us are qualified and experienced engineers who are certified in a couple of states and different countries to design and approve exactly this type of thing.

Being a house builder does not qualify anybody to hang loudspeakers in a public barn, let alone claim expertise in the field regardless of the cost of the house(s) you build.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mintaka007 View Post
I am not going to enter this discussion from a knowledge perspective as it is not in my experience to fly speakers. I will tell you one thing though, if I were to do it I could guarantee it would be over engineered beyond the specs of whats needed
Based on the above why are you here again...and how do you guarantee work you’re neither competent or qualified to perform and have no experience performing?
Old 6 days ago
  #52
Lives for gear
 
Thomas W. Bethe's Avatar
Basically it is best to hire professionals when dealing with public spaces if you want to keep from getting sued if something goes wrong. Simple economics. I have been privy to some really botched jobs done by both professionals and amateurs. I saw a whole science building built with the drains inches above the floor level. (contractors who never questioned the spec). I saw a house addition built and wired with zip cord by the contractor. (The only reason the home owner noticed something was wrong because he kept blowing circuit breakers feeding the room). I saw a permanent stage built that was so wobbly it could not be used. (contractor trying to save money by using less materials). I have seen home owners try and save money buy doing things themselves which even a seasoned contractor would not attempt and the results were horrendous. I can change a door knob or door lock but putting in a new door calls for a competent carpenter. Building a whole house that will not fall down requires an architect and a builder who are professionals. Why someone who does have a riggers license would even think of hanging a speaker over someones head and not be concerned is completely beyond me. FWIW
Old 6 days ago
  #53
Lives for gear
 
Wyllys's Avatar
 

007...

It's not about the resume of you or any others who attempt such work. It's about ethics, responsibility and liability. You can judge your qualifications for yourself, but offering your approach as an acceptable standard for others seeking advice from anonymous respondents on an open internet forum is just as irresponsible as taking said advice and putting others at risk. But I must agree that any load bearing points must be verified and certified on a signed sheet from a licensed structural engineer. You've definitely identified step one in the process with that portion of your post.

W
Old 6 days ago
  #54
Lives for gear
 

Two people were arrested today in France after a storm flooded their public camp site in France. They’re from Germany and converted the land they owned into a public camp site for families without specific authorization and without expert advice...no architects, engineers or other professionals were involved but I’m sure they thought the site was “over engineered”.

The problem is that the site was in a flood zone next to a river and had they asked an expert they would have known....two people are missing and they’re now in jail. This is what can happen when people think they’re experts and try to play loose with other people’s safety.
Old 6 days ago
  #55
Lives for gear
 
mintaka007's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wyllys View Post
007...

It's not about the resume of you or any others who attempt such work. It's about ethics, responsibility and liability. You can judge your qualifications for yourself, but offering your approach as an acceptable standard for others seeking advice from anonymous respondents on an open internet forum is just as irresponsible as taking said advice and putting others at risk. But I must agree that any load bearing points must be verified and certified on a signed sheet from a licensed structural engineer. You've definitely identified step one in the process with that portion of your post.

W
My point was that I am over qualified to hang speakers. I specialize I designing, engineering and building radius staircases. For Sam to come at me with his "just because you can install a window" crap is purely ignorant.

I'm not telling, and never have told amateurs to try to hang a speaker, but I am saying I am more than qualified, probably moreso than many people who do it.

I have never claimed that I am a top level audio engineer, but I will emphatically state that I am a top professional when it comes to engineering and building immensely complex construction projects, and my resume and customer history backs that up.

Would I ever trust a sound engineer like Sam to be able to look at the structural integrity of hanging positions and give an educated and experienced approval because he held some boards while his dad built a house? The answer is no. He has neither the knowledge in building techniques and structural engineering nor the experience to criticize anyone. Just because you look at something someone else does does not qualify you to do it. I am fully licensed, bonded and insured in this area of expertise and have been for 20 years.

Design, engineer and build a three story elliptical staircase and then come talk to be about hanging speakers.

Sorry to be blunt and self serving, but Sam has a way of bringing out the best in everyone, myself included.
Old 6 days ago
  #56
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by mintaka007 View Post
My point was that I am over qualified to hang speakers. I specialize I designing, engineering and building radius staircases. For Sam to come at me with his "just because you can install a window" crap is purely ignorant.

I'm not telling, and never have told amateurs to try to hang a speaker, but I am saying I am more than qualified, probably moreso than many people who do it.
What qualifies, (or over qualify) you to hang loads in a public space...with no experience or training, how are you more qualified than the people who actually do this work pray tell?

Are you an engineer let alone a licensed structural or mechanical engineer? Because being a licensed, bonded and insured carpenter and house builder does not qualify you to hang loudspeakers (or anything else) in a public space especially when you have no training or any experience in the profession. Trying to pass yourself off as a design or structural engineer with the necessary expertise to hang loads because you can build a staircase shows just how little you know about the subject.

The fact is, almost any high school dropout can build a house (with a staircase) and hang some loudspeakers overhead...but will it pass inspection and will it be safe for public use...can you (legally) sign off on the design and construction of either job...?

Last edited by Samc; 6 days ago at 02:02 AM..
Old 6 days ago
  #57
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by Samc View Post

The fact is, almost any high school dropout can build a house (with a staircase) ?
Have you ever built a staircase?
Old 6 days ago
  #58
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2manyrocks View Post
Have you ever built a staircase?
I helped my dad build a house with two staircases...one was inside the house and constructed of wood and steel, and the exterior, balcony staircase was cast in concrete with steel railings.

That was more than 30 years ago and the house which is still standing was sold years ago, it was designed by my dad who is an electrical engineer, I was at university studying mechanical engineering at the time and we got help during the construction from his older brother (my uncle) who was also an electrical engineer.

Since then I’ve earned a professional license and have been involved with many projects that are directly related to the topic being discussed, including being the technical director for more than a few festivals. I have designed hang points and towers for both small and massive loudspeaker rigs and signed off on the construction of many others and can say without doubt that anybody who can claim no experience on one hand and then claime to be an expert on the other has no clue what they’re talking about

Hope this helps...
Old 6 days ago
  #59
Lives for gear
So to bring things back on topic...

There can be folks here who are very talented when it comes to structural engineering, be it from house building, elliptical staircases.

While those folks would be capable of hanging a speaker safely in their own home, unless they're licensed and bonded as an installer, it's still a major liability issue for a public space.

Just because you can do something doesn't mean you should.

Unfortunately, Gearslutz has no filter to determine the end user of information, and that's where forums like this run into problems - and why the only advice when it comes to hanging speakers or dealing with electrical issues is "hire a licensed professional."
Old 6 days ago
  #60
Lives for gear
 

I think we agree that anybody can throw a big strong chain over a beam and attach a loudspeaker to it and claim they “engineered” a solution, but what happens if there’s a fire, or an earthquake...? Will it standup in a panic situation if people are fighting and pushing to get out of the building for any reason, will the building settle unevenly in the future and cause the load bearing walls to be out of square?

Inexperienced people almost never think of the what-ifs when they are playing experts on the internet...but what happens if/when the building structure is older and classed and there are important restrictions on what can and cannot be done? How do you calculate and design for temporary loads as opposed to fixed loads in venues that facilitate productions bringing in their own systems....do inexperienced laypeople even realize that even when the support points are properly designed, the sequence of how the load is hung can be very important to the safety of the structure and people under the load? Building a new staircase into a new (square) structure that was designed to accommodate the staircase in the first place does not qualify anybody to hang loads in a public space, and if you have no experience and training you cannot claim to be an expert.

If you’re using wire rope, what type of rope should be used, because despite rating all wire ropes are not constructed the same, how should you space U-bolt fasteners and on what side of the rope should you place the saddles, do you know how to calculate the bend radius in relation to the diameter of the rope for the best efficiency...etc? There are too many variables that we cannot even begin to consider here for inexperienced people to make the over qualified and expert claim, these many variables and the potential dangers involved are why national and local government agencies demand that people have a certain level of training and experience before allowing them the right to take on these jobs legally...not everybody can affix their signature to any aspect of these jobs and I’m happy with that.

Last edited by Samc; 6 days ago at 09:28 AM..
Post Reply

Welcome to the Gearslutz Pro Audio Community!

Registration benefits include:
  • The ability to reply to and create new discussions
  • Access to members-only giveaways & competitions
  • Interact with VIP industry experts in our guest Q&As
  • Access to members-only sub forum discussions
  • Access to members-only Chat Room
  • Get INSTANT ACCESS to the world's best private pro audio Classifieds for only USD $20/year
  • Promote your eBay auctions and Reverb.com listings for free
  • Remove this message!
You need an account to post a reply. Create a username and password below and an account will be created and your post entered.


 
 
Slide to join now Processing…
Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Forum Jump
Forum Jump