The No.1 Website for Pro Audio
 Search This Thread  Search This Forum  Search Reviews  Search Gear Database  Search Gear for sale  Search Gearslutz Go Advanced
LV1 or not ? Control Surfaces
Old 3rd July 2018
  #31
Gear Head
 

As Hugh suggested, I went directly to the source. Yes, you can purchase LV1 32 channel version and later upgrade to the 64 channel. (upgrade is $130).
Old 5th July 2018
  #32
Lives for gear
 
Aisle 6's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by hughshouse View Post
Aisle 6, Perhaps you will share with us the equivalent console that has 32 Digico "D" pre amp inputs/ 18 out puts and 12 HP outs with knob attenuation. 64 busses with LV1 mixer and the Extream V3 server, 8 port net switch, platform M & D2 controller with 8 motorized faders and knob encoders. Add to that apx. $2,500. for a custom computer with two 24inch touch screens ready for multi-track duty with out needing to purchase a $1,500, Dante card, for a street price in the 10K range.
There will also be a need to add a few Waves plug-ins like the H-Verb but they are not very expensive and you can buy only what you will use.
Hi Hugh
I was simply adding up the pricing you put forward and it seemed to add to about $20k or close to. Clearly I am missing something and the street pricing is known to you. I am not sure how much equipment is where you are, so there is that.

I think I need to assess it all in more depth. As I say, maybe I am missing something.
Old 6th July 2018
  #33
Lives for gear
 

Aisle 6, I have been trying my best to sort out the various Waves elements and relationship to work flow over the past two years. Consequently I fully understand your missunderstanding of my summation.

!. 32 Digico "D" pres -- Extream server package -- Computer & Screens
($12,500. list)

2. 40 Pre amp Stage box - Extream server package - computer & screens
($11,500. List)

The major hub of confusion rests with a very poor explanation of the precise role and commensurate limitations of the three servers Waves offers. Working at the lowest buffer setting @ FP32/96K with a ton of channels and CPU hungry plug-ins requires the top of the line Extream server. I strongly suggest a visit to a Digigrid/LV1 system and sample exactly what the gear is capable of, specifically their H-Verb plug-in. It is the most CPU hungry plug in all of Waves inventory but absolutely the best reverb I have ever used either plug-in or hdwear.
Hugh
Old 10th July 2018
  #34
Gear Head
 

I finished my demo for LV1.

I really like the product, and almost pulled the trigger to buy it. But after further reflection, I just dont think it is worth the price, and I am a bit disenchanted by not having any kind of discount upgrade path considering all the other Waves products I own.

Probably the real deal breaker is not having a remote iPad app to mix with, or a way for my band to do their own IEM mixing was a contributing factor and ultimate show stopper. Yes, I have X32 integrated for IEM, but I concluded that my X32 rig was plenty adequate for a live band rig.

While I love my Waves plugs, I did not feel that I could do an adequate job with just an IOS for the DSP. I would need to add an Extreme server to be safe.

By the time I add all that up, it gets costly. True, it would likely sound a little better, but not enough to justify the added cost.

For now, i will leave my Digigrid IOS and IOX in my home studio, where I love using them! Best setup I have had so far.
Old 27th September 2018
  #35
Gear Head
 

Lightbulb

Just an FYI for those who may be interested - The current 30% off on Waves Anniversary sale also applies to LV1.

It has me rethinking this again.
Old 1 week ago
  #36
Gear Head
 

Just thought I would say that I bought LV1/64 and the Soundgrid Extreme server afterall.

Since I last posted on this thread, I also bought another IOX and a Midas M32C. We are using the M32Q phone app (just like with x32) to wirelessly manager our personal IEM mixes. The beauty or this setup is the M32C with the X-WSG card allows me to route my 8 IEM right to the built in HP amps on the IOX's. This is so clean! No analog noise bleed of any kind. and only takes up 1 rack U.

I am looking forward to getting LV1 all hooked up and running with my Mercury plugs. Yes, I had Cubase serving as my mixer, but as Brew said earlier..."it just aint made for live sound". Oh, it worked fine, but it had too many areas of workflow craziness that I just decided to dive in and go for LV1 with a DSP server and get on with making music.

I will report back again after I have had some time to get my head wrapped around it all.
Old 1 week ago
  #37
Lives for gear
 
Roland's Avatar
The digital console market is in a slightly ‘funny’ place at the moment. Fee’s are not going up, and the fact that you can do a great mix on an X32, makes it difficult to justify more expensive consoles for many. The LV 1 offers some interesting solutions, however, being a kit of parts makes it slightly less elegant than ideal and for all that people say, faders are still a must if you want the best control. Disappointingly, I don’t see much in the middle ground that offers a truly elegant solution, though I suspect that Behringer s new Midas offering might be very interesting.
Old 1 week ago
  #38
Lives for gear
 

Yes Roland, your observation is right on target. The Vicissitudes involved in audio processing over the past 15 years has clearly created a confused market place. Experienced professional engineers that appreciate advanced sonic capture, unlimited routing, ultra low latency and "magic memory" of every setting-- fixed or moving, are reticent to accept a new and different "out of the box" form. They prefer to keep adding "dongles" to furniture the size of a parking space that they move around on trucks in order to preserve a protocol locked to mechanical knobs and faders.
Here's what we know:
1. Stage boxes that move critical audio activity to the capture location are
beneficial in a major way.
2. Cat 6 connectivity has made copper wire snakes obsolete.
3. Processing and plug-ins that are designed and optimized to work
synergistically within a system have a huge advantage.
4. Affordable 24 inch touch screens with HDMI and USB 3 connectivity have a
huge advantage over an integrated 12 inch screen that has to flip pages.
5. The ability to purchase only the number of channels and processing you
need for your current work flow that is expandable in the future if
necessary is critical. This is the scalability that should be a no brainer for most folks
considering a purchase of this sort.

With all of that said I have a bit over $10,000 in a super Digigrid/Waves LV1 system: however if I was starting over today, for many reasons, I would give the A & H SQ5 a very long look.
Hugh
Old 1 week ago
  #39
Gear Head
 

First thoughts...a little bit of buyers remorse. I guess I didn't eval it far enough to realize that only one system can off load to the soundgrid server at a time...either soundgrid studio, or LV1...not both concurrently. That is a huge buzzkill for how I was planning to use LV1 in my studio.

Second aspect is the version mismatch. Soundgrid Studio is still version 9. LV1 v10 requires different firmware, so it isnt so simple to just flip one config on for DAW work, and another for Studio Live Gig setup. In fact, the driver stuff is a bit of a mess. This is where a forum on Waves would have been helpful. it is hard to find much end user intel sharing.

As far as the soundgrid extreme server, it kicks butt! LV1 is cool too. They just are not going to play together (with my DAW) as I had assumed they would.

So, I will have to go back to the drawing board and rethink how I intend to use each product setup to play into it's strengths. I can still integrate enough to record to my DAW, I just cant integrate at the level of resource sharing with the server. Bummer

Last edited by Synetos; 1 week ago at 08:56 PM.. Reason: Clarify
Old 1 week ago
  #40
Lives for gear
 
Roland's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Synetos View Post
First thoughts...a little bit of buyers remorse. I guess I didn't eval it far enough to realize that only one system can off load to the soundgrid server at a time...either soundgrid studio, or LV1...not both concurrently. That is a huge buzzkill for how I was planning to use LV1 in my studio.

Second aspect is the version mismatch. Soundgrid Studio is still version 9. LV1 v10 requires different firmware, so it isnt so simple to just flip one config on for DAW work, and another for Studio Live Gig setup. In fact, the driver stuff is a bit of a mess. This is where a forum on Waves would have been helpful. it is hard to find much end user intel sharing.

As far as the soundgrid extreme server, it kicks butt! LV1 is cool too. They just are not going to play together as I had assumed they would.

So, I will have to go back to the drawing board and rethink how I intend to use each product setup to play into it's strengths. I can still integrate enough to record to my DAW, I just cant integrate at the level of resource sharing with the server. Bummer
And for all the great things about Waves plugins, the server system is a bit pants. I don’t want to be populating a third party system with plugins I want to use in another programme. It is for this reason, and this reason alone that I feel that Avid and Yamaha are ahead of the curve in top end console design. There are some things I like about the Allen and Heath D live, but they don’t appear to offer the same level of sophistication, equally as well, they are at a slightly lower price point.

Looking at the teasers Midas/Behringer are leaking out, I suspect they are looking at a fairly full featured product at low mid range money and this is where the large sales will happen, typically Yamaha, A&H, Soundcraft. Unfortunately Soundcraft don’t appear to be interested in getting into this fight and I’m not sure where Digico see themselves. As things tighten up, there are going to be a couple of winners at most and a lot of losers.
Old 1 week ago
  #41
Gear Head
 

I am not kicking LV1 or Waves Plugs. I like them very much. I just had a vision of what I was going to accomplish that got diminished as my setup unfolded. Mercury plugin suite isnt all the tough to share if I wanted to with a USB Flash Drive. But, I own Waves Horizon and a ton of other plugs from other vendors that I can use on my studio DAW. If there is a surgical need for a Waves plug in Mercury that i dont own, it is easy to pick the one-offs up as needed.

In the last hr, I have already made headway in how I am going to setup my gear. This will still end up being very awesome, just have to play into the strengths of each setup, rather than mush it into a big rig full of complexity.

I am certainly looking forward to using LV1 for future gigs. I dont want to drag a console around. One 10u rack holds everything we need. Bring my macbook, and we are good to go. I dont doubt there are new products in the pipeline for all the major vendors. I too look forward to seeing how things unfold as far as for what is coming next in the world of Live Sound. Cool stuff, i am sure!
Old 1 week ago
  #42
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Synetos View Post
First thoughts...a little bit of buyers remorse. I guess I didn't eval it far enough to realize that only one system can off load to the soundgrid server at a time...either soundgrid studio, or LV1...not both concurrently. That is a huge buzzkill for how I was planning to use LV1 in my studio.

Second aspect is the version mismatch. Soundgrid Studio is still version 9. LV1 v10 requires different firmware, so it isnt so simple to just flip one config on for DAW work, and another for Studio Live Gig setup. In fact, the driver stuff is a bit of a mess. This is where a forum on Waves would have been helpful. it is hard to find much end user intel sharing.

As far as the soundgrid extreme server, it kicks butt! LV1 is cool too. They just are not going to play together (with my DAW) as I had assumed they would.

So, I will have to go back to the drawing board and rethink how I intend to use each product setup to play into it's strengths. I can still integrate enough to record to my DAW, I just cant integrate at the level of resource sharing with the server. Bummer
luckily i got to try an lv1 system on two live shows before digging any deeper into configurations/options - my main issue is that it's lacking (by design, so can't blame) what i prefer to have in front of me, which is dozens/hundrets of knobs and faders rather than a touch screen (or two). imo speed of use and accessability are limited and i'm missing the capability of adjusting several channels at the same time. i therefore went with another (less portable and more expensive) system... - but thx for keeping us posted on your experience.
Old 1 week ago
  #43
Lives for gear
 

The routing possibilities of faders and basic processing with LV1 are pretty much unlimited but on first glance, or in deedeeyeah's case first use, it is easy to miss some of the bus assignment possibilities. Maintaining habitual mechanical fader and knob protocols will become more and more difficult and expensive to sustain in the future as the paradigm shift from analog to complete digital control progresses.
In order to clear the air please understand I am in the "set it and leave it alone" crowd for the talent on stage to shape the dynamic expression and musical blend. This is possible with the acoustic Americana genre, session ready, musicians that I work with however I am well aware of some FOH situations that rely upon knob jockeys to message the performance. It is imperative for everyone to clearly understand the ramifications of these differences before investing in audio gear of the type we are discussing.
Hugh
Old 1 week ago
  #44
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by hughshouse View Post
The routing possibilities of faders and basic processing with LV1 are pretty much unlimited but on first glance, or in deedeeyeah's case first use, it is easy to miss some of the bus assignment possibilities. Maintaining habitual mechanical fader and knob protocols will become more and more difficult and expensive to sustain in the future as the paradigm shift from analog to complete digital control progresses.
In order to clear the air please understand I am in the "set it and leave it alone" crowd for the talent on stage to shape the dynamic expression and musical blend. This is possible with the acoustic Americana genre, session ready, musicians that I work with however I am well aware of some FOH situations that rely upon knob jockeys to message the performance. It is imperative for everyone to clearly understand the ramifications of these differences before investing in audio gear of the type we are discussing.
Hugh
i'm with you that the lv1 is a very capable system!

i would like to mention though that a) i guess i didn't miss any options/possibilities even when using it for the first time (thx to the support i got from the rental company) and b) i wasn't referring to an analog desk when talking about lots of physical knobs/faders but a digital desk i got (studer vista).

it's the concept/the interface/the touch screens which i don't like much on the lv1; somewhat similar to the otherwise mighty ssl live desks...
Old 1 week ago
  #45
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by deedeeyeah View Post
it's the concept/the interface/the touch screens which i don't like much on the lv1; somewhat similar to the otherwise mighty ssl live desks...
I work on a M7CL console at my church, and I like the LV1 channel screen layout on LV1 far better than that thing.

I have not purchased a touchscreen yet. I am using a 32" 4k right now as I get things setup. I am liking the ability to have cubase/vst project window open, along with VEP for VST hosting. Band uses several VST instruments, so I like to have easy access to that, as well as for recording.

I am basically using 2 windows for LV1, kinda like you see guys with dual screens setup.

I may add a touch screen for purely multitouch on DCA's. When I mix live, I pretty much do it from DCA's...assuming the setup was done properly during rehearsal.

I have a Behringer X-Touch compact that i might hook up, but it takes up nearly as much desk space as a touch screen monitor, so TBD.
Old 1 week ago
  #46
Lives for gear
 

It is important to know the particular proclivities of a given soft wear and the gear it is optimized to work with. a) multi-touch is available for PC 8.1 & up platforms for up to 10 touch points. Waves LV1 is not optimized for Mac computers. (apparently the reason it is limited to 10 is because most of us are limited to 10 digits for these purposes) b) I am well aware of furniture the size of a parking space that's hauled around on a truck with hundreds of mechanical knobs and motorized faders that are todays big time digital consoles: however scaled down versions of the "Bigguns" are disproportionally expensive to manufacture and maintain and less dependable when compared to surface touch controlled options. I certainly do not want to start a whizzing contest with anyone over the WavesLV1 protocol but I do think it is important to sort out the relevant facts for concerns based on a limited cursory experience.

Synetos, I am glad you are on your way with your LV1 but there is a strong note of caution you should be reminded about: There is a very good reason the IOX and IOS need 3 inches for free air space on each side and need to be vertically separated by one addition vertical rack space. (They run hot and need a lot of air all around) I use a 4 space SKB shock case for the IOS and IOX that I run as a stage box in front of the mics on stage.
Another tip I will share is the importance of a separate 2 space regular SKB case to house the server. When it is processing the fan, that does a great job of cooling the unit, BUT sounds like a jet engine when it is in the immediate vicinity of my sensitive tube mics. I Have a 100 ft. roll of cat 6 that allows me to put it off stage for live FOH work and in another room adjacent to my tracking and control rooms when deployed in the studio.
Dissipation of heat is a real dangerous problem for all computer processing loads of any consequence and unfortunately dealers are not always up to speed on the highest and best practice with the component LV1 systems.
Hugh
Old 1 week ago
  #47
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by hughshouse View Post
Synetos, I am glad you are on your way with your LV1 but there is a strong note of caution you should be reminded about: There is a very good reason the IOX and IOS need 3 inches for free air space on each side and need to be vertically separated by one addition vertical rack space. (They run hot and need a lot of air all around) I use a 4 space SKB shock case for the IOS and IOX that I run as a stage box in front of the mics on stage.
Another tip I will share is the importance of a separate 2 space regular SKB case to house the server. When it is processing the fan, that does a great job of cooling the unit, BUT sounds like a jet engine when it is in the immediate vicinity of my sensitive tube mics. I Have a 100 ft. roll of cat 6 that allows me to put it off stage for live FOH work and in another room adjacent to my tracking and control rooms when deployed in the studio.
Dissipation of heat is a real dangerous problem for all computer processing loads of any consequence and unfortunately dealers are not always up to speed on the highest and best practice with the component LV1 systems.
Hugh
Thanks for the tips! I appreciate all suggestions on how to maximize the system.

I actually dont have a shock rack, but I have one IOX in a 10U rack with free spaces above and below. I have the Extreme Server in its own 6U rack so I can move it around in my studio, and keep it cooler.

I have looked at some rack cooler fans, and did have a USB fan setup to draw air through when I had both IOX's in the same rack. I might look at them again.

The temp on the server is reporting 114 F, with it idling "quietly" and all 64 channels are configured with the default EMO plugs on.

BTW- is there a way to disable the EMO plugs in mass, or do I need to do each channel on its own?
The default "on" state queues up 192 plugins and wastes about 30% of my server capacity.
Old 1 week ago
  #48
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Synetos View Post
I work on a M7CL console at my church, and I like the LV1 channel screen layout on LV1 far better than that thing. ..
i bet you are :-)

using the stage mix app to control the m7 would be a step in the right direction - even better: use the desk's control surface and the ipad together!

and to set the record straight: when i'm talking about lots of knobs and faders, i'm NOT talking about any of the usual yamaha, midas or avid desks with just a few controllers/knobs but i'm referring to the studer vista desks: the 32-channel version has more than 120 knobs to twiddle!

Quote:
Originally Posted by hughshouse View Post
... I am well aware of furniture the size of a parking space that's hauled around on a truck with hundreds of mechanical knobs and motorized faders that are todays big time digital consoles: however scaled down versions of the "Bigguns" are disproportionally expensive to manufacture and maintain and less dependable when compared to surface touch controlled options...
obviously not: they are not the size of a parking lot and the versions with built in dsp are not priced above yamaha/digico/avid. 32-fader version is 55kg and about 1.55m wide - less dependable?! you can even hire folks at studer to remotely control your desk from their headquarter and change things in the background while you keep pushing faders...

again: i'm not putting down the lv1! all i'm saying is that the access to functions via touch screen is not necessarily superior to physical access to functions which can get assigned to hundrets of knobs - it's a matter of taste (and speed of use)!

___


would appreciate if you guys could post a pic of your systems (desk/surface/screens and rack)

Last edited by deedeeyeah; 1 week ago at 12:18 AM.. Reason: edited
Old 1 week ago
  #49
Gear Head
 

Well...after a couple days getting my head wrapped around LV1 and how to integrate it in my setup...I am happy to report is it AWESOME!

Here is where I landed on my setup, at this time.
  • I have a 6core machine (3930k) with 32GB ram dedicated to LV1 host machine. It is not even close to using that machines capability. Basically idles around 15% cpu and only 4-5GB ram being used.
  • I have an 8Core (5960x) with 64GB ram that is dedicated to running VST instruments for keys, and Addictive Drums. It is running Cubase and VEPRO. All this machine does is trigger samples for the band.
  • May main (10core 6950x/128gb ram) Cubase Pro DAW is where all the tracking, mixing/post happens. This machine is loaded up with all my VST library's and stuff.
  • All of these machines are setup with the Soundgrid driver for LV1 v10. They are not running soundgrid studio v9. They are just devices on the LV1 v10 network. So far, rock solid.
  • The LV1 host is the central routing point for all I/O. It is hosting LV1 and my Waves Mercury + Studio Classics plugs.

Things i got rid of...x32 & M32C. I am not going to have the band doing their own monitor mix at this point via iPhones. We will see ho that goes over at our next jam.

Basically, the main reason is the limit of 32 channels. I have 64 channel version of LV1, but when you make the tracks stereo, you need 128 inputs on the target for IEM mix. I didnt do that, but enough that I need about 90. With the X-wsg card limited to 32 channels, I cant really use it the way I want to.

If the band pushed back too hard, then I might do a session preset that will limit us to grouping things to hit that 32 channel limit.

The second reason is the 48kHz limitation. I like to track vocals and acoustic guitars at 96k, so I am going to just run the whole setup at 96k

I wont bore you with all my setup routing, but just know that what I first saw as a buzz kill has turned out to be a much better way to setup and record the band, while maintaining the feel of the live mix setup.

I will be tracking a singer/songwriter customer with this rig next week. I am excited to have it all sync'd up and ready to go.

I get my first touch screen monitor for LV1, today. I am going to try the Planar Helium PCT2235 Touch Screen 22"

My only complaint on soundgrid Driver is that the LV1 assigned port names do not carry to the slave devices. They just populate as SoundGrid 1, 2, 3, etc.

In LV1, my primary beef so far is also related to naming...or the inability to rename certain things...like Mute 1 or user assigned controls. I would like to know that Mute 2 is for FX, without having to memorize that. Or the I/O ports on each device.

I also wish there was an iPhone app to do personal monitor mixes. I am half tempted to dust off my programmer hat and write my own app. But...it isnt that important to me at the moment. TBD
Old 6 days ago
  #50
Gear Head
 

Thoughts on Planar Helium PCT2235 Touch Screen 22". This thing works great! For only $190ish on Amazon, wow! It's just the right size when I set the resolution to 1280x768.

I also hooked up a Behringer X-Touch Compact. I dont know why, but I just do not like real faders anymore. Noisy and clunky. Perhaps I have been working primarily in the box for so long now, that I have lost the need for tactile controls.

I think it may be time for the X-touch to go and be replaced by another touch screen monitor.

I will say this, the X-touch mapped flawlessly in Mackie Control mode with LV1. If I used it at all, it would probably just be setup on DCA faders. Now that I have 16 DCA's, it seems like a hassle to use the X-touch and flip layers, when I can just setup a touch monitor and have all 16 in front of me. As I say that, I am off to go work on an M7CL-48 for the weekend. Ha! I wish it had 16 DCA's
Post Reply

Welcome to the Gearslutz Pro Audio Community!

Registration benefits include:
  • The ability to reply to and create new discussions
  • Access to members-only giveaways & competitions
  • Interact with VIP industry experts in our guest Q&As
  • Access to members-only sub forum discussions
  • Access to members-only Chat Room
  • Get INSTANT ACCESS to the world's best private pro audio Classifieds for only USD $20/year
  • Promote your eBay auctions and Reverb.com listings for free
  • Remove this message!
You need an account to post a reply. Create a username and password below and an account will be created and your post entered.


 
 
Slide to join now Processing…
Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Forum Jump
Forum Jump