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Anyone use DPA 4099 for ac. guitar? In noisy clubs? Condenser Microphones
Old 18th May 2018
  #1
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Thread Starter
Anyone use DPA 4099 for ac. guitar? In noisy clubs?

I refuse to give up on trying to get a good live acoustic sound. Pick-ups just don't sound good - and I've tried just about all of them. Acoustic pick-ups essentially make guitars a different instrument IMO.

Has anyone used the 4099? I know they sound great, but I'm wondering how much crowd noise they pick up - and if it's even worth it. I had a K&K Meridian and loved it while experimenting at home...then basically had to turn off the mic and use only the pickup when I started playing out.

Would I have better luck just sticking a 57 in front of the 12th fret and trying to blend in a little with a pickup signal?

Your experiences appreciated!
Old 18th May 2018
  #2
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I wouldn't be that scared about the picking up of background noise in a loud pub. More about feedback.
Search for ToneDexter, maybe that box helps. I don't have it yet but it's ordered.
If you like I can tell you more once the ToneDexter arrives.
Old 18th May 2018
  #3
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If there is a lot of room sound/mains bleed on the stage, you're better off accepting that's where pickups shine and mics have lmited headroom/utility in comparison. Other factors/issues:

1. Guitar type. Some body styles/sizes work better. Ovation guitars were developed to address this. They worked well for Glen Campbell...

2. Technique. If you can't make your instrument project, no mic will sort it out from the ambient sound. You have to be able to kick it. Trying to push introverted, sensitive sound with tech in loud environs requires a pickup. There are good ones...not cheap.

3. Modelers. There are "smart" units which purport to "learn" the desired sound profile of a mic and recreate via a good pickup to emulate decent acoustic performance. I can't remember the brand name right now, but check the "Amplified" section of the Acoustic Guitar Forum.

Good luck.

Last edited by Wyllys; 18th May 2018 at 02:37 PM..
Old 18th May 2018
  #4
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We had a simul-post.

Here's a link to the Tonedexter:

https://audiosprockets.com

But no matter the device, you still have to play at a level that gives a strong enough signal to work with. Wimpy levels invite feedback.

Peter: Looking forward to your report.

Last edited by Wyllys; 18th May 2018 at 04:07 PM..
Old 18th May 2018
  #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wyllys View Post
2. Technique. If you can't make your instrument project, no mic will sort it out from the ambient sound. You have to be able to kick it. Trying to push introverted, sensitive sound with tech in loud environs requires a pickup. There are good ones...not cheap.
^^^THIS^^^

I am an aggressive player and get my sound out clearly yet I never break strings and there are no scratches on my Martin. There is a lot to be said about good right hand technique (or left if you're a lefty).
Old 18th May 2018
  #6
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Wyllys's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Telecruiser View Post
^^^THIS^^^

I am an aggressive player and get my sound out clearly yet I never break strings and there are no scratches on my Martin. There is a lot to be said about good right hand technique (or left if you're a lefty).
Thanks for the backup.

Projection isn't just volume, though. It involves having some "meat" behind the touch. I've gone all the way from just using my fingers to playing from the elbow, then the shoulder and by now I'd guess I'm down into my shoes.

Gotta make it solid at any volume.
Old 18th May 2018
  #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wyllys View Post
Thanks for the backup.

Projection isn't just volume, though. It involves having some "meat" behind the touch. I've gone all the way from just using my fingers to playing from the elbow, then the shoulder and by now I'd guess I'm down into my shoes.

Gotta make it solid at any volume.

I've been playing a while. I have a solid bluegrass background as well as other styles. I flatpick and also use a thumb pick like Jerry Reed and bare fingers if required.
Old 18th May 2018
  #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CrankyChris View Post
...Pick-ups just don't sound good - and I've tried just about all of them. Acoustic pick-ups essentially make guitars a different instrument IMO.

Has anyone used the 4099? I know they sound great, but I'm wondering how much crowd noise they pick up - and if it's even worth it. I had a K&K Meridian and loved it while experimenting at home...then basically had to turn off the mic and use only the pickup when I started playing out.

Would I have better luck just sticking a 57 in front of the 12th fret and trying to blend in a little with a pickup signal?

Your experiences appreciated!
have you ever tried a radial piezo di with the highest impedance setting on a piezo pickup? imo this makes ALL the difference.

regarding the dpa: maybe two years ago i had to mic an acoustic guitar on a noise stage (at a convention of beer drinkers in a hockey stadium - don't laugh, true story!)

i thought i could use the piezo di and keep the dpa as a safety (or to blend with the pickup) but njet, no pickup... - i put the dpa on the guitar, taped a sanken cos-11 lavalier at the bridge and put a schoeps hypercardioid in front of the guitar, just anything i had and that i though would at least give me some signal.

any guess on the outcome?

the schoeps was by far the best and the sanken still better than the dpa!

(couldn't have used any of the mics without an expander though - in fact, i'm not doing any gig, regardless of size, without expanders)
Old 18th May 2018
  #9
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Thread Starter
Quote:
have you ever tried a radial piezo di with the highest impedance setting on a piezo pickup?
I actually use a Radial Tonebone. Is there a way to alter impedance? I'm using an active fishman piezo pickup.

I'm not sure how to do this or what it does??

So you were at least semi successful with the mics at the noisy convention?
Old 18th May 2018
  #10
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Wyllys's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by deedeeyeah View Post

couldn't have used any of the mics without an expander though - in fact, i'm not doing any gig, regardless of size, without expanders
Got rid of the parentheses and edited it for proper emphasis. Downward expansion just makes things work naturally.
Old 18th May 2018
  #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CrankyChris View Post
I actually use a Radial Tonebone. Is there a way to alter impedance? I'm using an active fishman piezo pickup.

I'm not sure how to do this or what it does??
i'm not techno knowledgable enough to know how the impedance could be altered - soundwise, i'd describe it as getting rid of all the harshness and piercing hi frequency ringing: much nicer in any case!
Old 18th May 2018
  #12
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Wyllys's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by CrankyChris View Post
I actually use a Radial Tonebone. Is there a way to alter impedance? I'm using an active fishman piezo pickup.

I'm not sure how to do this or what it does??

So you were at least semi successful with the mics at the noisy convention?
If you're after tone, get rid of the piezo and put a Rare Earth in the sound hole. If you want to keep the piezo, ditch the Radial and buy the recommended matching Fishman preamp.
Old 18th May 2018
  #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wyllys View Post
Got rid of the parentheses and edited it for proper emphasis. Downward expansion just makes things work naturally.
thx wyllys
i otherwise often get shouted down when suggesting the use of expanders...
cheers,
didier
Old 18th May 2018
  #14
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Wyllys's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by deedeeyeah View Post
thx wyllys
i otherwise often get shouted down when suggesting the use of expanders...
cheers,
didier
It's a no-brainer. Anyone bitching about it has no brain...
Old 19th May 2018
  #15
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by deedeeyeah View Post
thx wyllys
i otherwise often get shouted down when suggesting the use of expanders...
cheers,
didier
Old 20th May 2018
  #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deedeeyeah View Post
have you ever tried a radial piezo di with the highest impedance setting on a piezo pickup? imo this makes ALL the difference.

regarding the dpa: maybe two years ago i had to mic an acoustic guitar on a noise stage (at a convention of beer drinkers in a hockey stadium - don't laugh, true story!)

i thought i could use the piezo di and keep the dpa as a safety (or to blend with the pickup) but njet, no pickup... - i put the dpa on the guitar, taped a sanken cos-11 lavalier at the bridge and put a schoeps hypercardioid in front of the guitar, just anything i had and that i though would at least give me some signal.

any guess on the outcome?

the schoeps was by far the best and the sanken still better than the dpa!

(couldn't have used any of the mics without an expander though - in fact, i'm not doing any gig, regardless of size, without expanders)
Not surprising. I've often used MKE2 and 4060 lavs on acoustic guitar with good results. "Proper" mics like the Schoeps MK41 usually hold their polar pattern better than the miniature mics and also sound better, but if the musician can't keep the instrument in front of the mic you are screwed, although IME this is more common with the double bass players than with the guitarists.

I have nothing against the use of expanders in this situation either.
Old 20th May 2018
  #17
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I use microphones exclusively when playing live and I used to own and use a Meridian Pro mic as well. The Meridian Pro is an omni-directional mic so it does pick up a bit of noise and its feedback prone.

My experience is that ANY cardioid or super-cardioid microphone works better live than a pickup. Just take an SM-58 and point it at the 12th fret and it will work fine on its own. In a noisy environment the subtleties of a condenser will be lost anyway.

I should add that when I perform with microphones live like this I perform without foldback. Too much foldback is the cause of the majority of feedback problems although not all.
Old 20th May 2018
  #18
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I used to play live (flamenco guitar) with the dpa 4099 but when the stage is too loud and you play with drums or massive percussion its not very usable. its a great mic for a cleaner stage and if the sound system is really good. I switched to Carlos Juan pickups and it sounds really great! the one i have has a piezo and a condenser inside the guitar. you can blend between the two and get a really great natural sound!
Old 21st May 2018
  #19
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Al Rogers's Avatar
 

I used a DPA 4099 for a while and although I like the sound quality I don't think it's a practical system for playing in a bar or any other noisy venue. I can see using it for a house concert at low volume where there is no background noise. Or on stage in concert with a good sound man.

FWIW a Shure SM81 microphone on a stand beats the sound of most on board acoustic guitar pickups if you have good mic technique.

Last edited by Al Rogers; 21st May 2018 at 04:05 PM..
Old 21st May 2018
  #20
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[QUOTE=Al Rogers;13328216]I used a DPA 4099 for a while and although I like the sound quality I don't think it's a practical system for playing in a bar or any other noisy venue. I can see using it for a house concert at low volume where there is no background noise. Or on stage in concert with a good sound man.

Same experience here!
Old 21st May 2018
  #21
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I also regularly use a 4099 (on cello), it sounds great but as others have noted is tricky to use on a noisy stage, good monitor positioning (4099 is supercardioid) or using iems can help. Where the 4099 is unusable I use an AKG c411 which doesn't sound great to my ears but can be a get out of jail card where instrument modification is unwelcome or impractical.
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