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New Yamaha DZR series!
Old 10th April 2018
  #1
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dickiefunk's Avatar
New Yamaha DZR series!

Just seen Yamaha has announced a brand new powered range of speakers called the DZR :-

YouTube

From what I can see in the promo they now have

- Wooden cabinets
- New more powerful amp modules with LCD menu based 96khz DSP
- Woofers have 3” voicecoils compared to the DXR’s 2.5”
- Rotatable horns
- ‘D’ models have Dante ports

Not sure if these are an upgrade over their DXR or DSR range but given my extremely positive experience of the DXR15’s over the past 7 years I’m seriously interested to learn more about these!
Old 10th April 2018
  #2
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DareDevil01's Avatar
 

Dito!!! I'm keen to see (and hear) more about these...
Old 10th April 2018
  #4
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mintaka007's Avatar
These look pretty nice. I'm hoping JBL answers with an upgrade to its srx line. The dzr 3 way is specd at 143db, whereas the srx 3 way is 137. Obviously this is just paper, but if it is the case in the real world, 6db is signifigant if it is usable when pushed.

I, running a soundcraft performer, don't want to have to buy the ridiculously overpriced dante card so I'll just have to wait I guess. Running qsc kw now. They are Ok, but there is better in this range now and would like to upgrade while the qsc's still fetch good resale.
Old 10th April 2018
  #5
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The specs look very impressive on paper! If Yamaha measured the specs the same way as the DXR series, the 12” DZR12 goes 10hz lower and 6dB louder than my 15” Yamaha DXR15’s That would be excellent news for me as the DZR12 is both a little smaller and lighter!

I would be very happy if the DZR12 is a noticeable improvement over the DXR15 in terms of audio quality, depth of bass and output!
Old 11th April 2018
  #6
Gear Head
 

These speakers look outrageously good. I wonder what they'll be priced at.
Old 11th April 2018
  #7
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Just seen a UK dealer listing pre order prices :-

DZR 10 - £989
DZR 12 - £1089
DZR 15 - £1289
DZR 315 - £1535

DZR 10-D - £1189
DZR 12-D - £1089? think this must be an error and should be £1289?
DZR 15-D - £1449
DZR 315-D - £1745

DXS 15xlf - £1389
DXS 18xlf - £1485

DXS 15xlf-D - £1690
DXS 18xlf-D - £1685?

These prices are from gear4music.com . They say estimated delivery is 19th-23rd April!?
Old 11th April 2018
  #8
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A few quick questions:

Will they array and allow future expansion?

Do you actually need a louder box in a bar or restaurant?

Will they make good stage monitors, especially with a 90°x60°...on a small stage or alcove?

Does anybody here believe that the model with the 10" woofer will equal the SPL of the L'Acoustics ARCS...all other models are louder. That box with a 10" woofer also goes lower than the ARCS and X15 dual purpose loudspeaker...in a 15mm plywood box mind you. When you get up to the box with the 15" woofer it gets even more ridiculous.

Just a few things to keep in mind before you spend money for an incremental sideways move.
Old 11th April 2018
  #9
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Yes good points Sam! I don't believe those specs at all. However, I don't need them to be arrayable, stage monitors or louder to be honest. I've never ran out of output with my DXR15's yet though I am wondering if the DZR's would run cleaner as I wouldn't be pushing them to their max?
If the DZR 12 will give me any improvement in audio quality with deeper bass extension, higher output within a wooden cabinet and at a slightly lower weight, that ticks a lot of boxes for me.

Ultimately, I'm looking for a pair of powered tops that will offer improved audio quality, deeper bass extension, wooden cabinet and lower weight.

Is there anything that you would recommend?

Last edited by dickiefunk; 11th April 2018 at 07:48 PM..
Old 11th April 2018
  #10
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Keep in mind that a thin, non-engineered plywood does not win you anything...if the box is not absolutely solid it will vibrate when used and fall apart if dropped. There is a reason pro manufacturers use thicker, No-void, birch ply when you claim to be going as low as 39Hz at 139db.

I did box analysis for one of the A-list companies a while a go that showed how much the box was dancing around, and they had to totally redesign the box to get rid of most of it...and that was 19mm Birch ply with no voids etc.
Old 11th April 2018
  #11
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Does that mean that the DZR plywood cabinets wouldn't be any improvement over the DXR's plastic ABS cabinets?
Old 11th April 2018
  #12
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Samc View Post
Do you actually need a louder box in a bar or restaurant?
Not necessarily, but I always want more low end, and these boxes have remarkable specs on paper for their respective sizes. I understand that you don't believe the specs, but if any company could make such technological advances, Yamaha is probably the company to do it. They have extensive resources and top notch dsp, which is the real advancement of this box. More here: DZR / DXS XLF Series | Speakers | Products |
Yamaha


I don't really follow why there is so much disbelief. Do you think Yamaha is lying? Inaccurately measuring? Inaccurately recording? I mean...I've never seen "inflates the specs" as a complaint levied at Yamaha before so I don't know where that accusation comes from. Especially when something like SPL is so easily measured and tested by the home user.

Quote:
Just a few things to keep in mind before you spend money for an incremental sideways move.
It's a bit premature to call it an "incremental sideways move" before you've even heard the boxes.
Old 11th April 2018
  #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dickiefunk View Post
Does that mean that the DZR plywood cabinets wouldn't be any improvement over the DXR's plastic ABS cabinets?
I can't say off hand, a lot depends on the construction of the boxes...the thickness of the baffles and the bracing of the cabinets, the mechanical attachment etc.

It caught my attention because of the thickness of the ply and b because they didn't say it was baltic birch which is heavier and more expensive than regular plywood.
Old 11th April 2018
  #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Svelte View Post
Not necessarily, but I always want more low end, and these boxes have remarkable specs on paper for their respective sizes. I understand that you don't believe the specs, but if any company could make such technological advances, Yamaha is probably the company to do it. They have extensive resources and top notch dsp, which is the real advancement of this box.
Just to be clear, it is not my intention to tell you what to think or believe, this is just my opinion based on my knowledge and experiences. I think it is very unlikely that this box with a 10" woofer will outperform an L'Acoustics ARCS or the Meyer UPA and UPQ loudspeakers, and yet the published specifications of the Yamaha 10" box are better than those of the L'Acoustics and the Meyer boxes...but this is just my opinion. Everybody else is free to believe what they want.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Svelte View Post
It's a bit premature to call it an "incremental sideways move" before you've even heard the boxes.
Like I said before...everybody is free to have their own opinion.
Old 11th April 2018
  #15
S21
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The box specs seem unlikely to be acheived in the real world.
Old 11th April 2018
  #16
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mojo filters's Avatar
 

Before we start getting excited about SPL specified at 143dB, perhaps some folks should look at the fundamentals and the realities behind such claims.

Integrating Dante does seem like a smart forward focused feature. Ability to address both network and signal directly from a QL or similar over Cat5, could be a very neat solution for events needing multiple small speakers.

The specs don't provide much detail, but it would be handy to also be able to remotely lock all the clutter on the rear. I still think there's a market for MI boxes with plain Meyer style rear panels, but I'm guessing the manufacturers who have to sell such don't agree!

In terms of performance, the 3-way box potentially loses the full benefit of fancy DSP by virtue of only being biamped - though as Fulcrum have shown, combining innovative passive crossovers with powerful processing can actually be very effective.

In respect of the question around construction, ABS generally allows sharp pencil engineering to better brace and minimise internal reflections, compared with inexpensive wooden cabinets.
Old 12th April 2018
  #17
the 3 way...yea...143DBSPL= ...lets hear this box!
Old 12th April 2018
  #18
Old 12th April 2018
  #19
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Rotating the horn seems rather cumbersome and time consuming, and I wonder how long it will be before the grill and horn start rattling.
Old 12th April 2018
  #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Samc View Post
I wonder how long it will be before the grill and horn start rattling.
I thought of this too, but it might be pretty secure with the eight hex screws. Probably not a feature I'll be messing with much.
Old 12th April 2018
  #21
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Apparently if you intend to use them as monitors or use them on their sides you will have to rotate the horns...it doesn't even have to rattle, if its not airtight the performance of the loudspeaker may be affected.

From the manual:
Quote:
NOTE
• Make sure not to push the screws too strongly with the Phillips head screwdriver. This may cause the nuts inside the cabinet to fall off. • If the horn cannot smoothly be pulled out, hook the notches using a flat-bladed screwdriver, and pull out.
Old 12th April 2018
  #22
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doing the horns that way is kind of old school, but its no different to nexo PS or D&B Q series, so I can't see it ending up being that big of a problem.
Old 12th April 2018
  #23
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The Nexo boxes do not require the removal and replacement of 16 screws and you can't accidentally push out the nuts in the box, (behind the horn) on the PS boxes. As far as I remember the d&b Q boxes employed a similar system to the PS boxes...four bolts with captive nuts, plus these systems were in all likelihood configured by professionals.

But again, this is just my opinion, I'm not trying to convince anybody of anything...
Old 12th April 2018
  #24
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Aisle 6's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Samc View Post
Does anybody here believe that the model with the 10" woofer will equal the SPL of the L'Acoustics ARCS...all other models are louder. That box with a 10" woofer also goes lower than the ARCS and X15 dual purpose loudspeaker...in a 15mm plywood box mind you. When you get up to the box with the 15" woofer it gets even more ridiculous.
I agree and call BS. Possibly they do reach those stated numbers and possibly the context of reaching those figures is that they reached it for a nano second @ 1kHz after evacuating the space before the amp caught fire and the speaker cone shot across the room at mach II speed.
Old 13th April 2018
  #25
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While I prefer the sound of a Meyer UPA over that over the DSR, I don't think that a UPA will put out more volume than a DSR. In fact, the DSR is the highest output powered 2-way top I have heard. A dedicated horn like the Danley SM80 will give you higher output, but it is limited to 140Hz and above. You need another speaker and amp with it to get the same sound as a 2-way top.

Don't confuse output with sound quality.

For reference, the DSR112 is rated at the same SPL as the PRX 712/812. The DSR is noticeably louder speaker in real life (and cleaner sounding). Within the market segment that these speakers sell in, their output ratings are conservative in comparison. I suspect that the new DZR series are also rated this way.

Higher end speaker makers do normally provide better specifications and more information on how they measured the data as well. I would also have to say that higher end speaker makers and higher end speakers in general do not rely on a loud single point source, they provide higher output through arrays of speakers and their speakers are designed to be arrayed to increase coverage and output through multiple boxes (more surface area -> move more air).

There is a market need in the small/medium venue space for louder single top over single sub systems. Not everyone needs it. As dickyfunk points out, he doesn't run out of gas with his current DXR15's. There are others that are constantly crushing the limit lights though. These group plays in a little larger venue and are generally willing to pay a bit more for more output .... especially if a single box can do it without stepping up to a multi-top, multi-sub per side setup.

I personally don't see any reason to doubt that Yamaha can produce the numbers they are claiming, or more specifically, I see no reason to doubt that these speakers will be 5db louder than the previous version (using the 12" as this example). From a person hearing the boxes side by side, 5db would sound significant, but not double (typically I thought 10db gave a perception of double). I see no reason to believe that this isn't possible. After all, the DSR series is now nearly 10 years old.

Why don't we give them a listen before we all decide what is and is not possible?

As an aside, these seem to be priced above the DSR series, and more in line with the KW and SRX line of speakers .... nearly as expensive as the RCF 745's. Based on price, they should be a noticeably step up IMO.
Old 13th April 2018
  #26
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I have heard the DSR next to the UPA and the X12 and can say without doubt that it is not louder than either of those boxes and although I've never compared it to the UPQ with a 15" woofer or ARCS (both of which are more powerful than the UPA and X12 boxes by a lot) I'm sure that it's not as powerful or goes as low...and all of these boxes will sound better than the DSR at higher level.

The DSR is only louder well off axis because the very little pattern control of the boxes, and if sound quality does not matter and distortion is accepted then the DSR might be as loud or even slightly louder than the UPA box. but in reality, it is nowhere as as low or as loud as any of the other boxes but the specs. of the old and new boxes say otherwise, and even the box with the 10" woofer posts up specifications that are more impressive that the Meyer and L'Acoustics boxes listed above! Anybody who've ever heard this loudspeakers, especially over an extended period will know that this is not possible...not with the technology we have today, we are talking about Nexo Alpha and d&b C7 territory here for crying out loud.

Professional point source boxes are not only louder when in an array, they are louder because they employ very efficient horn designs, they use better and more efficient components, and the boxes are properly designed and constructed...boxes don't lose energy through the vibration and other ill effects of bad design and cheap construction. Narrow dispersion boxes that can be arrayed are more flexible that a single loudspeaker with wide dispersion for very obvious reasons.
Old 13th April 2018
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Samc View Post
I have heard the DSR next to the UPA and the X12 and can say without doubt that it is not louder than either of those boxes and although I've never compared it to the UPQ with a 15" woofer or ARCS (both of which are more powerful than the UPA and X12 boxes by a lot) I'm sure that it's not as powerful or goes as low...and all of these boxes will sound better than the DSR at higher level.

The DSR is only louder well off axis because the very little pattern control of the boxes, and if sound quality does not matter and distortion is accepted then the DSR might be as loud or even slightly louder than the UPA box. but in reality, it is nowhere as as low or as loud as any of the other boxes but the specs. of the old and new boxes say otherwise, and even the box with the 10" woofer posts up specifications that are more impressive that the Meyer and L'Acoustics boxes listed above! Anybody who've ever heard this loudspeakers, especially over an extended period will know that this is not possible...not with the technology we have today, we are talking about Nexo Alpha and d&b C7 territory here for crying out loud.

Professional point source boxes are not only louder when in an array, they are louder because they employ very efficient horn designs, they use better and more efficient components, and the boxes are properly designed and constructed...boxes don't lose energy through the vibration and other ill effects of bad design and cheap construction. Narrow dispersion boxes that can be arrayed are more flexible that a single loudspeaker with wide dispersion for very obvious reasons.
The very few times I have had a pair of UPA's to play with, I never had the nuts needed to push them as loud as I could get for fear of breaking something that costs as much as a decent used car.

Most people I know feel the same way.

"Efficient horn designs" don't cost more money that poor ones. I suspect that Yamaha, JBL, etc, etc, can pay for good engineers as well or better than a smaller company like Meyer.

I'll give you the materials argument; however, I doubt Meyer is spending much time figuring out how to make a 12" 2-way powered box that can cover a larger audience. They have other (much better) solutions for this.

Anyone that has heard the DSR112 can tell you that they are loud and clear. I suspect that the new more expensive models will be louder than the DSR's are and possibly sound better as well. Why would anyone pay more for them if they didn't?

Lets just wait until we can hear them eh?
Old 13th April 2018
  #28
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The UPA loudspeakers are not fragile, I've pushed them as hard as they will go for hours without problems or failure....my observation is neither a guess or speculation.

A good horn design that is specifically matched to custom components does cost more that generic designs that did not require the time and expertise of expensive engineers and test facilities to design...and yes, Yamaha can pay for engineers to do the same work too, Nexo is proof of that, but the real question is: will/can the target customers pay for it?

No sensible pro loudspeaker manufacturer will spend a lot of time trying to design a single 12" box that will cover large audiences, they know it makes more sense to build boxes that will array well and therefore cover a lot of different situations. I don't know if the new box will outperform the old box and by how much...I'm pretty damn sure it won't outperform an ARC, UPQ or GEO S12 loudspeakers as their published specifications seem to suggest... I knew that a Fiat Panda could not outperform a Porsche Carrera 911 with two turbo chargers long before I drove either.

Anyway, as I've said before this is just my opinion, and I'm not trying to convince anybody of anything...
Old 13th April 2018
  #29
S21
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I agree we need to hear them. As the heir the DSR reputation, the DZR ought to be pretty good.

DSR are loud and clear and sweet, but when pushed towards their limits the clear and sweet bit doesn't hold up as well as some more modern designs like SRX800/ETX/etc. Yamaha has the advantage of designing their product after these systems.

But a design that deals with many times the energy (and heat) without falling apart (at the same sort of price point) would be quite a feat in an area as mature as loudspeaker design.

6dB louder than specs from other vendors (that aren't credible in their own right) makes me fear that the spec is acheived by engineering the measurement rather than the product. "Peak", per pair of speakers, measured in 1/4 spaces, downhill with a tail wind, ...

This is all a distraction from what I expect to be a delightful product.
Old 13th April 2018
  #30
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I’m not expecting the DZR12 to put out 139dB or even go down to 39hz in real world useage. However, if they are able to offer any improvement over my DXR15’s in overall fidelity and depth of bass this would be great for my purposes. I am also hoping that the higher powered amp module will help the sound to stay cleaner at moderate volumes but until I am able to compare them it’s purely conjecture.

Whilst I’m under no illusion that my DXR15’s are able to come close to higher end systems (l’Acoustics, Meyer, d&b, KV2, Nexo etc) they have been a reliable workhorse for 7 years that has continued to impress me considering their cost. I regularly run a full band (4x vocals, 2x keys, bass and kick drum) with no backline through the DXR15’s. I regularly get great comments at gigs regarding the sound and the surprising depth of bass for a pair of speakers on stands with no subs or backline.
Some of the events I do have pretty crazy access and it’s not always physically possible to use my QSC KW181 subs so having a pair of speakers that are reasonably full range is very handy in those situations.
One event I did was at a 200 seater amphitheatre and it was impossible to get the subs down to it. I had to go with just the DXR15’s and I ran a fully miked up drum kit, upright/electric bass, 2x keys and 4 vocals though them and I was very impressed with the sound I got. I had a lot of people come up to me at the end of the event and commented on how good they thought the sound was.

If the Yamaha DZR12’s will be an improvement over my DXR15’s regarding audio quality and full range sound they will be a good option for my work. I don’t need the extra output (presuming the DZR12’s will be louder), but hopefully if the amps are not being pushed hard this will help the audio to stay clean.

Is there any other powered speakers that will be a step up from the DXR15’s in audio quality, depth of bass and output?
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