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PA or ? for small room with low ceilings
Old 8th April 2018
  #151
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Samc View Post
Did you really expect anything better...
I live in hope.

Quotes & Sayings about Hope

Last edited by Wyllys; 8th April 2018 at 09:24 PM..
Old 8th April 2018
  #152
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For those who wish to understand the single simple principle determining system GBF (and the entire gamut of audio system operation) I would refer you to the Yamaha Sound Reinforcement Handbook by Davis and Jones, pp. 47, 48 and 52. This information has been given before and links posted, but one mor reference won't hurt. The explanation is given in both simple language as well as mathematical formulas. You don't have to be a math or physics major to understand the diagrams and explanations, though.

W
Old 9th April 2018
  #153
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Since you either don't read what is posted before you begin arguing, or you two just choose to ignore it, I'll post my first post again. I'm not and have never said it is the main reason for, or the best solution to stop feedback. what I am saying is read below. to state gain staging has NO, I.E.ZERO effect on feedback shows me that you indeed didn't read this. I'm sure you will keep regurgitating the same things that dont pertain to the below though as that is how you guys roll. Enjoy, I'm done beating my head against a wall and having to say the same things over and over. I'm sure it will only take you guys a few hours to find another thread to start an argument in as that is ALWAYS the case with you two.

My first post:-------

From audiomasterclass.com. Take what you will out of it, there are some points here for all to marinate in. This is basic stuff, or so I thought, but it seems like it needs to be said:

Now the question is whether carefully balancing the gain and fader (of the same channel) will improve the situation regarding howlround.

Quick question... What does the gain control do?

Answer: It boosts the level of the signal.

Another question... What does the fader do?

Answer: It lowers the level of the signal.

Clearly both of these controls have an effect on the loop gain of the system and can therefore affect feedback.

But if you raise the gain by 6 dB, the output from the loudspeakers goes up by 6 dB (assuming no compression). If you then lower the fader by 6 dB, then the output goes down to what it was before.

In fact, however many decibels you change the gain, if you move the fader by an equal number of decibels but opposite in direction, then the output level and loop gain will stay the same.

So the short answer is that you won't improve anything however much you play about with the relative gain and level, assuming that you always use one to exactly compensate the other.

But there is a 'but'...

The exception is if you have your gain too high on the point of clipping. (If you do this you will almost certainly have your faders set very low to compensate.)

Distortion induced by clipping adds an uncertainty into the feedback equation by changing the balance of frequencies.

The result is not going to be good. In general, distortion adds energy to the higher frequencies. Howlround is always unpleasant but high frequency howlround can be ear splitting.

So set the gain correctly using the normal methods and concentrate on the factors that really can reduce howlround...

Firstly if you can get the microphone closer to the sound source, you can get a greater proportion of the sound source you want to pick up, in comparison to the sound coming from the speakers.

Secondly, as much as possible place the speakers so they don't fire sound directly at the microphone. And from the opposite point of view, position the microphone as carefully as you can so that it doesn't point at the loudspeakers.

There are more weapons in the anti-howlround arsenal, but these two are the biggest guns.
Old 9th April 2018
  #154
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mintaka007 View Post
I'm sure you will keep regurgitating the same things that dont pertain to the below though as that is how you guys roll. Enjoy, I'm done beating my head against a wall and having to say the same things over and over.
Here you are "regurgitating" the same false and misleading claims over and over just by copying the same post over and over. You even claim that this is basic info that is found in every text book on the subject and is widely disseminated in teaching courses and reference papers, but so far you haven't presented a link to back up your (unsupported) claims.

Quote:
I'm sure it will only take you guys a few hours to find another thread to start an argument in as that is ALWAYS the case with you two.
Says the guy who came here hurling personal insults and grade-school name calling. The idea here is to stop so called 'experts' from posing half-baked and unsupported opinions as facts.


Quote:
My first post:-------

From audiomasterclass.com. Take what you will out of it, there are some points here for all to marinate in. This is basic stuff, or so I thought, but it seems like it needs to be said:

Now the question is whether carefully balancing the gain and fader (of the same channel) will improve the situation regarding howlround.
No...we already know the basics, the 'real' question and debate is; if improper gain-staging increase the possibility of feedback, or does it lower the gain before feedback of a system as you claim... I do not consider "audiomasterclass.com" a particularly reputable, reference site, but since you claim to have gotten this from the site I went to have a look and cannot find where they claim that improper gain-staging lowers the gain before feedback of a system.

Quote:
Quick question... What does the gain control do?

Answer: It boosts the level of the signal.

Another question... What does the fader do?

Answer: It lowers the level of the signal.
Wrong...the channel fader is a potentiometer, or variable resistor that allows the user to adjust the signal level up or down, not just down.

Quote:
Clearly both of these controls have an effect on the loop gain of the system and can therefore affect feedback.

But if you raise the gain by 6 dB, the output from the loudspeakers goes up by 6 dB (assuming no compression). If you then lower the fader by 6 dB, then the output goes down to what it was before.

In fact, however many decibels you change the gain, if you move the fader by an equal number of decibels but opposite in direction, then the output level and loop gain will stay the same.

So the short answer is that you won't improve anything however much you play about with the relative gain and level, assuming that you always use one to exactly compensate the other.

But there is a 'but'...

The exception is if you have your gain too high on the point of clipping. (If you do this you will almost certainly have your faders set very low to compensate.)

Distortion induced by clipping adds an uncertainty into the feedback equation by changing the balance of frequencies.

The result is not going to be good. In general, distortion adds energy to the higher frequencies. Howlround is always unpleasant but high frequency howlround can be ear splitting.
Where or what is the "but"? You haven't actually said anything special here...and you certainly have not proven how improper gain-staging will lower the gain before feedback of a PA system. Nothing here is part of the discussion or in dispute!

Quote:
So set the gain correctly using the normal methods and concentrate on the factors that really can reduce howlround...

Firstly if you can get the microphone closer to the sound source, you can get a greater proportion of the sound source you want to pick up, in comparison to the sound coming from the speakers.

Secondly, as much as possible place the speakers so they don't fire sound directly at the microphone. And from the opposite point of view, position the microphone as carefully as you can so that it doesn't point at the loudspeakers.

There are more weapons in the anti-howlround arsenal, but these two are the biggest guns.
You've made a basic list of basic things that can be done to avoid feedback...again, nothing here is in dispute and none of this was the subject of the discussion.

Last edited by Samc; 9th April 2018 at 11:00 AM..
Old 9th April 2018
  #155
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Given: Feedback occurs when the gain in the system loop reaches unity (gain of 0dB).
...Yamaha Sound Reinforcement Handbook, p. 47

Folks, that's all you need to know. System components and operation are subsumed under this governing principle.
Old 9th April 2018
  #156
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wyllys View Post
Given: Feedback occurs when the gain in the system loop reaches unity (gain of 0dB).
...Yamaha Sound Reinforcement Handbook, p. 47

Folks, that's all you need to know. System components and operation are subsumed under this governing principle.

...at that frequency


>
Old 9th April 2018
  #157
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Double post
Old 9th April 2018
  #158
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Quote:
Originally Posted by planetnine View Post
...at that frequency


>
Hope you've brought your wellies.
Old 9th April 2018
  #159
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There are inconsistencies and contradictions in your posting as well as substitution and mis-application of terms.


Quote:
Originally Posted by mintaka007 View Post
sooooo, what this means is that Samc is correct in that a 6db increase in gain and a 6db decrease in fader movement will net the same spl. Where sam is incorrect is this is only true if you are gain staged correctly.
This is the first assertion that gain staging within the system affects feedback, but the point under discussion is the condition for the onset of feedback, not feedback itself. Your assertions cite the phenomenon instead of the point of onset...the threshhold of feedback (TOF), not the feedback itself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mintaka007 View Post
It sounds like you didn't read my first post, so in relation to gain staging and the gain level vs fader level, here is the pertinent part

so the gain staging absolutely can effect feedback more than an equal level of fader adjustment...
...but not the TOF.


Quote:
Originally Posted by mintaka007 View Post
As I have explained, in very simple terms even, improper gain staging ABSOLUTELY CAN cause feedback. As you approach clipping, distortion and added energy to higher frequencies can cause a higher instance of feedback at a relative volume than if the gain was at a normalized level and the fader turned up to reach the same spl.
As it stands, this statement is self-contradictory at best.

Quote:
If I improperly gain stage and then turn the gain up to the point of clipping, I will feedback at a lower db, let's say 110, than if I were gain staged properly. If I gain stage correctly, I don't introduce distortion and added high end frequency energy at or near clipping that is not present

Gain staging properly is one piece to helping eliminate feedback
Another claim that gain staging affects the TOF.


Quote:
Originally Posted by mintaka007 View Post
I'm not and have never said it is the main reason for, or the best solution to stop feedback. what I am saying is read below. to state gain staging has NO, I.E.ZERO effect on feedback shows me that you indeed didn't read this.


Clearly both of these controls have an effect on the loop gain of the system and can therefore affect feedback.*
Feedback, yes. TOF, no.

Quote:
So the short answer is that you won't improve anything however much you play about with the relative gain and level.**
It seems to me that * and ** are contradictory statements. Any agreement between them would have to be found within the cloud of ill- or mis-defined terms.

Again, using feedback to describe both the phenomenon and the point of onset. This is misleading to say the least. It's never certain what you're talking about when using the same term to describe two different things. This harkens back to the debate over polarity vs phase where phase was used to define both a point in time and the effect of time shift.

You can't have it both ways.
Old 9th April 2018
  #160
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Quote:
Originally Posted by planetnine View Post
...at that frequency
>
...that frequency being the strongest in-phase of all. It makes no difference which frequency goes first, it's still feedback and must be dealt with if you don't want it to continue or grow. A chain always breaks at the weakest link, the last straw breaks the camels back.

Did your post have a point?
Old 9th April 2018
  #161
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[QUOTE=Samc;13247235 Says the guy who came here hurling personal insults and grade-school name calling. The idea here is to stop so called 'experts' from posing half-baked and unsupported opinions as facts.[/QUOTE]F

Please quote my personal insults and grade school name calling in my first post.

Another question, since you brought up another time you were too stubborn to admit you were wrong...

Please tell me in one sentence why you would push the polarity button on a mixer? Keep it simple sam. You don't have to grab your soapbox for this one, just need to answer the question. We all know what the polarity switch physically does, so I don't want you or need you to go into that, just this one question:

---Why would you push the polarity button on a mixer?
Old 9th April 2018
  #162
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mintaka007 View Post
Another question, since you brought up another time you were too stubborn to admit you were wrong...

Please tell me in one sentence why you would push the polarity button on a mixer? Keep it simple sam. You don't have to grab your soapbox for this one, just need to answer the question. We all know what the polarity switch physically does, so I don't want you or need you to go into that, just this one question:

---Why would you push the polarity button on a mixer?
I didn't bring it up but if I remember correctly, every experienced and knowledgeable person on the forum said you were wrong then too.

I'm going to suggest you quit trying to spar with me and try to learn something instead of constantly embarrassing yourself. Are you not interested in discussing what cause feedback anymore, or is this just about fighting with me?

There are about two or three other guys who support the same claim but they all have a different reason why, you could all get together and try to come to a single agreement about what's actually going on. I'm also still waiting on a link to a reputable site that support and explains your opinion, because until there is new and scientifically sound reasoning to the contrary, my argument will not change...vive la science.
Old 9th April 2018
  #163
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Samc View Post
I didn't bring it up but if I remember correctly, every experienced and knowledgeable person on the forum said you were wrong then too.

I'm going to suggest you quit trying to spar with me and try to learn something instead of constantly embarrassing yourself. Are you not interested in discussing what cause feedback anymore, or is this just about fighting with me?

There are about two or three other guys who support the same claim but they all have a different reason why, you could all get together and try to come to a single agreement about what's actually going on. I'm also still waiting on a link to a reputable site that support and explains your opinion, because until there is new and scientifically sound reasoning to the contrary, my argument will not change...vive la science.
I see you have edited your dig about polarity and phase. Smart move, wouldn't have went well for you. You could still answer the question though.

Also, didn't address where you said I came into this discussion hurling insults and name-calling. Must have been more samc embellishment. Surprising.

And lastly, here is the link to my quote you couldn't find.

To eliminate feedback is it good to reduce the gain and raise the fader? (Part 2)

If you don't understand what he is talking about, see my other posts. I have simplified the explanation and have given examples. Easy test to replicate. Just need a mic, an spl meter and white or pink noise for consistency. Give it a shot, you'll be surprised.
Old 9th April 2018
  #164
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You wrote the following to Sam:

Quote:
Originally Posted by mintaka007 View Post
I see you have edited your dig about polarity and phase. Smart move, wouldn't have went well for you.
Once again, you're blatantly in error. I said that. True to form, you have taken a statement out of context to use it to serve your personal agenda. There was no deletion. It's still there. You obviously read my post, then accused Sam. You really need to get your ducks in a row...

For someone who frequently begins replies with "you must not have read what I posted"...or words to that effect...your attribution of my "dig" to Sam typifies the tendency you show to argue rather than discuss, to accuse rather than to cooperate and to change the facts to support your current but ever-shifting, ill-defined position.

The constant flip-flopping, saying one thing then contradicting yourself (some times in the same post or even the same paragraph) followed by "I never said that" is laughable. And when one of your claims is refuted or brought into question by quoting your own words containing a contradictory statement, you fly off at a tangent. And regarding the link to and quote from the Audio Masterclass Newsletter, the veracity of his statement ends when he brings in the "but...". The assertions from that point on no longer refer to the TOF, but insinuate that frequency content or balance has something to do with the onset of feedback when the reality is that the onset of feedback is not at all frequency dependent. It matters not one whit which frequency is the first to ring. Your continuing insistence that the article is correct in all facets is NOT correct. The author is in error, perhaps inadvertently, but when he introduces frequency and frequency content into the piece, he ignores or leaves out the reality that it is simply total system gain being the determinant in reaching the TOF even though he acknowledges that fact earlier in the article. His assertion that there are special cases where something other than total system gain determines the TOF begins with that "but...".

Here's a link regarding his work and position in the world of audio: Complaint / review: Audio Masterclass - Providing DISservice to audio community | #988
Further research reveals that Mellors business (he's the proprietor of Masterclass) deals with studio work, not live sound, which would explain his digression. Of his 63 on-line videos, NONE deal with live sound or PA systems.

BTW, in correct English, the highlighted phrase would be "...wouldn't have gone well for you."

The floor's yours, but from here on out you'll just be talking to yourself. Rave on...

Last edited by Wyllys; 9th April 2018 at 07:55 PM..
Old 9th April 2018
  #165
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mintaka007 View Post
I see you have edited your dig about polarity and phase. Smart move, wouldn't have went well for you. You could still answer the question though.
What the heck is wrong with you dude...I already told you to stop embarrassing yourself. Are you okay because I'm sure that not even you actually believe that your experience and knowledge even comes close.

Quote:
Also, didn't address where you said I came into this discussion hurling insults and name-calling. Must have been more samc embellishment. Surprising.
Yet here you are still behaving like you're in grade school.

Quote:
And lastly, here is the link to my quote you couldn't find.
I don't need to continue debating serious audio concepts and methods with you...this is clearly a waste of time.
Old 9th April 2018
  #166
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wyllys View Post
Here's a link regarding his work and position in the world of audio: Complaint / review: Audio Masterclass - Providing DISservice to audio community | #988
Further research reveals that Mellors business (he's the proprietor of Masterclass) deals with studio work, not live sound, which would explain his digression. Of his 63 on-line videos, NONE deal with live sound or PA systems.
I guess we all have to learn our tradecraft somewhere...I remember using the word "reputable" when I asked for a link, oh well.
Old 9th April 2018
  #167
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wyllys View Post
You wrote the following to Sam:



Once again, you're blatantly in error. I said that. True to form, you have taken a statement out of context to use it to serve your personal agenda. There was no deletion. It's still there. You obviously read my post, then accused Sam. You really need to get your ducks in a row...

For someone who frequently begins replies with "you must not have read what I posted"...or words to that effect...your attribution of my "dig" to Sam typifies the tendency you show to argue rather than discuss, to accuse rather than to cooperate and to change the facts to support your current but ever-shifting, ill-defined position.

The constant flip-flopping, saying one thing then contradicting yourself (some times in the same post or even the same paragraph) followed by "I never said that" is laughable. And when one of your claims is refuted or brought into question by quoting your own words containing a contradictory statement, you fly off at a tangent. And regarding the link to and quote from the Audio Masterclass Newsletter, the veracity of his statement ends when he brings in the "but...". The assertions from that point on no longer refer to the TOF, but insinuate that frequency content or balance has something to do with the onset of feedback when the reality is that the onset of feedback is not at all frequency dependent. It matters not one whit which frequency is the first to ring. Your continuing insistence that the article is correct in all facets is NOT correct. The author is in error, perhaps inadvertently, but when he introduces frequency and frequency content into the piece, he ignores or leaves out the reality that it is simply total system gain being the determinant in reaching the TOF even though he acknowledges that fact earlier in the article. His assertion that there are special cases where something other than total system gain determines the TOF begins with that "but...".

Here's a link regarding his work and position in the world of audio: Complaint / review: Audio Masterclass - Providing DISservice to audio community | #988
Further research reveals that Mellors business (he's the proprietor of Masterclass) deals with studio work, not live sound, which would explain his digression. Of his 63 on-line videos, NONE deal with live sound or PA systems.

BTW, in correct English, the highlighted phrase would be "...wouldn't have gone well for you."

The floor's yours, but from here on out you'll just be talking to yourself. Rave on...
My error, and apologies for thinking Sam said that vs you.

So my question would I guess extend to you:

WHY would you hit a "polarity" button (that's the button on every mixer with the "phase" symbol next to it?

We realize it inverts the polarity 180 degrees, but again WHY does it do that. What is the result to the phase of the signal?

Would you call a volume knob a voltage regulating potentiometer? Same deal, you can describe how it gets to the end result (volume knob, phase switch), or how it accomplishes that task (polarity inversion, voltage regulating potentiometer). Which one makes more sense to use?

I realize this has been hashed out and off topic, but you brought it up, and it is a perfect example as to why when wyllys and Sam are involved in a discussion it always goes into a sideways argument. I think sometimes you guys just like to argue for the sake of arguing, or maybe it's peacocking, I don't know. What I do know is it always ends unfruitful.

What I posted about added energy at certain frequencies at the point of clipping (improper gain staging) absolutely applies to the original post, has merit, and can be tested fairly easily.

These days I mostly avoid gearslutz live forum because of you two. The constant arguments and snide remarks you guys marinate in gets old. Once in a while I do have some specific things I still come here to research, and time after time there is inevetibly and argument you guys are embroiled in.

Ask yourself what the common denominator is in all these arguments? Is it everyone else or you two?

Last edited by mintaka007; 10th April 2018 at 04:01 AM..
Old 9th April 2018
  #168
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mintaka007 View Post
Ask yourself what the common denominator is in all these arguments? Is it everyone else or you two?
Right now its you...name calling, being snarky and making false and misleading claims, your only reason for coming here was to fight. Walking around angry and with a rod because you were called out for posting incorrect info as usual.

In such a hurry to fight that you accused me of posting something I didn't and then accusing me off editing the post to erase it like I would give a rat's ass about it.

What is the matter with you "experts" who like posting up fake info and not wanting to be corrected...?

Last edited by Samc; 9th April 2018 at 09:14 PM..
Old 9th April 2018
  #169
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OK. Calculating max acoustical gain and establishing TOF.

For anyone interested in the actual physics, here are a couple of iPad pics from p. 48 of the Yamaha Sound Reinforcement Handbook. You needn't be a math major, but this reference helps understand terms/operations:

Logarithm - Wikipedia

The calculator on your smart phone has a log function, so it'll be easy to play with the formulas. The pictograph shows the various distances (D1, D2, Do, Ds) for reference. The formula itself is in the second pic. Sorry about the low quality, but the text should be readable...I hope.
Attached Thumbnails
PA or ? for small room with low ceilings-image.jpeg   PA or ? for small room with low ceilings-image.jpg  
Old 9th April 2018
  #170
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Samc View Post
Right now its you...name calling, being snarky and making false and misleading claims, your only reason for coming here was to fight. Walking around angry and with a rod because you were called out for posting incorrect info as usual.

In such a hurry to fight that you accused me of posting something I didn't and then accusing me off editing the post to erase it like I would give a rat's ass about it.

What is the matter with you "experts" who like posting up fake info and not wanting to be corrected...?
I think the solution is to do what others have done. I'll just block you two. Way easier that way. I could post some of the PM's I have received from others with the same frustrations I have, but it would do no good. You guys enjoy this stuff obviously. You were the same way over at prosoundweb. Every post you had was an argument. Once you left it became more of a community, and since you seem to ALWAYS be on your soapbox here, only choice is to make you invisible. Rarely do you actually want to help anyone anyway. This will make one less person for you to argue with as I won't even see your posts.

Bye.
Old 9th April 2018
  #171
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Samc View Post
I guess we all have to learn our tradecraft somewhere...I remember using the word "reputable" when I asked for a link, oh well.
In this case the repute is ill...
Old 9th April 2018
  #172
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OldBlue View Post
I hope someone can help me with my quandary.

I play solo and also in a duo in some very small pubs, and some have quite low ceilings. I use a Fishman SA220 when playing solo and add a mixer and a Yamaha DBR10 speaker for the duo. Some of these places are too small to have either speaker behind me, the only space is off to one side. There is often no room for monitors either. I have had feedback issues in the past with the SA220 and solved them by moving further away from the speaker. There are probably better ways to solve the issue, I am not technically minded but happy to learn.

I have a solo gig coming up where the room is approx 15' x 20', and the ceiling is approx 7' high. These are just general guesses from when I was in making the booking. I can't remember if there is carpet or not. I am slightly worried about feedback and wondering which option is going to be the best for this size room. I should add that the place will be packed, there is no way I could be heard without using amplification.

I use a Gibson J45 with a K&K mini pickup and a AKG D5 mic.

Thank you in advance for any advice!
Another option, since it sounds like with what you are doing you would prefer to keep it light and small with fast setup and teardown, would be to look into one of those little dbx go racks. There are several users on here in your same kind of situation that like them and say they work surprisingly well. It saves you from bringing a rack eq to notch out the offenders, and with your limited space there is only so much you can do with placement of speakers and mics. Some of the smaller wireless PA units, like the behringer xr18 have tools on them that are very helpful in identifying and correcting feedback issues without addl hardware.

They are so cheap it might be worth a try. Here is a video of one:

Old 10th April 2018
  #173
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Meh. Here's a quote of mine from post 123.


Quote:
Originally Posted by AnthonyG View Post
Have I given away some secrets of the business that I'm not supposed to reveal and the guys are trying to shut it down? Is the whole point that they want people to do a bad job so that they are more likely to get hired? (OK, this IS a conspiracy theory).

Do they just like being Jerks (more likely) and lording it over people?
Now Samc jumped on the conspiracy theory (it WAS a conspiracy theory) but glossed over the more likely explanation.

They just like being jerks.

Samc and Wyllys probably are right but the fact that they just like being jerks and going "GOTCHA" isn't helping anyone learn anything and while I'm accepting that they are likely correct I'm not 100% on board.

What I said to start this flamefest was that good technique would get you more gain before feeback which broadly IS correct but the exact example I picked was probably wrong.

Rather than offer friendly and useful advice Samc and Wyllys went into GOTCHA mode.
I still stand by the claim/belief that proper gain staging is going to get you better results and what I have gleaned from this thread is that the reason why It works for me is the issue of non linear response from inexpensive gear.

If you gain stage properly then in practice you won't have to deal with non linear preamps catching you out. Samc experimenting with his high end linear gear was never going to prove much.

If you want to play gotcha with this statement then by all means please do but the real question here is what worth are Samc and Wyllys to this forum?

If they are just here to catch people out for their own entertainment then their worth is not that high.
Old 10th April 2018
  #174
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If we're probably right it means you're probably wrong but you're not concerned about that because you're more interested in arguing and name calling....it gets better all the time.
Old 10th April 2018
  #175
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I smell bridges burning...
Old 10th April 2018
  #176
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Samc View Post
If we're probably right it means you're probably wrong but you're not concerned about that because you're more interested in arguing and name calling....it gets better all the time.
...and we're back in the room.

Sam and Wyllys were perfectly correct in their explanation and illustrations of the central principles of feedback loops. There is no point in questioning this aspect of the discussion because it is well proven and documented.

To the best of my knowledge no-one has done that. Ant, you suggested a scenario which might exacerbate feedback problems and you were correct to do so. Your phrasing however was incorrect and open to misinterpretation.

I felt I knew what you were getting at and answered the question I assumed you were asking, your subsequent comments confirmed I was on the right path.

Sam instead picked out the most incorrect part of your statement, which I took to be a simple non-technical description of a real life situation which musicians like myself are often guilty of, and, seeing an opportunity to tell someone they were wrong, did so.

Had we been a more interested in light rather than heat then Sam might have asked you to clarify, he would have seen that you were referring to a valid phenomenon, the behaviour of badly run sound systems and the way uninformed users can run into problems by driving one part of the system into clipping while another part is inappropriately "turned down" (or entirely underpowered).

A non-technical musician, faced with lack of clarity in the sound will sometimes opt for high volume instead, setting up the feedback loop as described. A knowledgeable and experienced user will avoid distortion/clipping and achieve clarity at lower volume, avoiding the onset of feedback.

A very similar illustration can be made for the misuse of compression, so I did.

All the other stuff about enjoying the arguing and apparently deliberate misunderstanding of any ambiguous or incorrect remark in order to ceremoniously and conspicuously crush it under the heel of self righteous fury - is also correct.

The insults are just about not knowing enough words.
Old 10th April 2018
  #177
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by shufflebeat View Post
All the other stuff about enjoying the arguing and apparently deliberate misunderstanding of any ambiguous or incorrect remark in order to ceremoniously and conspicuously crush it under the heel of self righteous fury - is also correct.

The insults are just about not knowing enough words.
The backhand insults never stop...its what I admire most about the 'good' guys. But no, the insults and name calling are not just about not knowing enough words...its about pettiness, meanness and vindictiveness.

The truth of the matter is that all the people complaining about what we do and did (including you) are the only people throwing insults around. This kind of thing is very obvious and can be seen in several previous threads...the tactic is to run in to threads lob a number grenades by making incendiary statements and then claim to be injured. One of your own recounting of your involvement in the thread was an obvious and dishonest misrepresentation of the truth, designed to denigrate on one hand and incite on the other.

I said the claims are incorrect, false and misleading simply because they are, not for any of the reasons you and others are stating as fact. One of the original claims is so outrageously false it borders on the ridiculous and you guys have side-stepped it in your rush to pick fights and try to bully.

Just claiming the argument is right does not make it so, and not one of you have provided any scientific explanation or article to support it despite the claim that this is taught in every class and is in every textbook on the subject. A look through the various reasons given will show that none of you guys actually agree on what makes this claim true, which basically tells me all of you are making this up as you go along.

Improper gain-staging will not lower the gain before feedback of a system...any system, and proper gain staging will not increase the gain before feedback of any system, cheap or otherwise. The argument about cheap preamps is totally ridiculous cheap preamps do not cause feedback...not in the real world anyway, and certainly not in the world I have worked in for decades.
Old 10th April 2018
  #178
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by shufflebeat View Post
I felt I knew what you were getting at and answered the question I assumed you were asking, your subsequent comments confirmed I was on the right path.

Sam instead picked out the most incorrect part of your statement, which I took to be a simple non-technical description of a real life situation which musicians like myself are often guilty of, and, seeing an opportunity to tell someone they were wrong, did so.

Had we been a more interested in light rather than heat then Sam might have asked you to clarify, he would have seen that you were referring to a valid phenomenon, the behaviour of badly run sound systems and the way uninformed users can run into problems by driving one part of the system into clipping while another part is inappropriately "turned down" (or entirely underpowered).
Your claim that you have some deeper insight into what he means is curious considering the statements he's made and continue making. Nothing he has said support your own interpretation of his statements. His claim is that gain-staging affects the gain before feedback of the system...see for yourself:
Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by AnthonyG View Post
What I said to start this flamefest was that good technique would get you more gain before feeback which broadly IS correct but the exact example I picked was probably wrong.
Post after post and nothing indicates that he means what you claim he means...clearly you guys are just making this stuff up as you go along.

Quote:
A non-technical musician, faced with lack of clarity in the sound will sometimes opt for high volume instead, setting up the feedback loop as described. A knowledgeable and experienced user will avoid distortion/clipping and achieve clarity at lower volume, avoiding the onset of feedback.

A very similar illustration can be made for the misuse of compression, so I did.
Except, there is no evidence that this is what he's talking about...this is your twist, maybe because it suites your explanation.

And then there was this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by shufflebeat View Post
Accepted.

I accidentally wandered off at a tangent due to a misreading (old age) but Sam replied to my post after I'd realised but before I'd deleted it so I was obliged to clarify.

Will read closer on phone.
We seem to be all over the place....
Old 10th April 2018
  #179
Lives for gear
 

non linear response

Quote:
Originally Posted by AnthonyG View Post
Meh. Here's a quote of mine from post 123.




Now Samc jumped on the conspiracy theory (it WAS a conspiracy theory) but glossed over the more likely explanation.

They just like being jerks.

Samc and Wyllys probably are right but the fact that they just like being jerks and going "GOTCHA" isn't helping anyone learn anything and while I'm accepting that they are likely correct I'm not 100% on board.

What I said to start this flamefest was that good technique would get you more gain before feeback which broadly IS correct but the exact example I picked was probably wrong.

Rather than offer friendly and useful advice Samc and Wyllys went into GOTCHA mode.
I still stand by the claim/belief that proper gain staging is going to get you better results and what I have gleaned from this thread is that the reason why It works for me is the issue of non linear response from inexpensive gear.

If you gain stage properly then in practice you won't have to deal with non linear preamps catching you out. Samc experimenting with his high end linear gear was never going to prove much.

If you want to play gotcha with this statement then by all means please do but the real question here is what worth are Samc and Wyllys to this forum?

If they are just here to catch people out for their own entertainment then their worth is not that high.
you made the most valuable point: in a system with linear behaviour, 'there is nothing to gain' :-) in reducing gain in one place and adding in another trying to avoid feedback - however, how often do systems (mic, pre, eqs, dynamics, amps, speakers and - even more important - the source in front of a mic) behave in a linear fashion? probably not that often, so...
Old 10th April 2018
  #180
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Samc View Post
And then there was this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by shufflebeat View Post
Accepted.

I accidentally wandered off at a tangent due to a misreading (old age) but Sam replied to my post after I'd realised but before I'd deleted it so I was obliged to clarify.

Will read closer on phone.
We seem to be all over the place....
Ok, you've mentioned this a couple of times so I'll clarify.

When AntG was talking about preamps is was clear (to me) that the aspect of the situation he was referring to was the variable sensitivity in the system caused by an overdriven input, what he referred to as improper gain staging, which is not incorrect but doesn't really get to the nub on the issue straight away and can be misconstrued.

I suggested that this was similar to what happens when guitar amp stages are deliberately overdriven and posted accordingly. Straight away I realised that this also was not getting to the heart of the discussion and could lead us down all kinds of tributaries so I decided to delete the post. Unfortunately you had gone off on one (direct pickup/amp feedback is the only types of feedback there is and the qualitatively different feedback involving acoustic energy driving the string harmonics does not exist) and it was too late, I felt I had to deal with your I'll informed and arrogant dismissal of something that every guitar player and amplified strings player deals with on a regular basis.

I reinstated the post because the distraction had already begun, and for that I apologised.

Anything to disagree with there?
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